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This is a bit out there, but what if Nakomi is a Time Traveler?

 

Dark One says he can't bring someone who has been balefired, however, the DO is hardly all knowing or all powerful, otherwise the sucker would not been imprisoned.

 

In the real world, the laws of physics allow for time travel. RJ was a physicists after all. Time traveling would require the power of black hole, something which certainly a Type III civilization/intergalactic/most advanced civilization would have.

 

 

However, Randland civilization is still far too primitive for that even in Avienhda's first dream, a Type Zero civilization like our present Earth, but even less advanced.

 

 

 

In Randland, one can Travel from spot to another by ripping the hole in the Pattern. What if by changing the weaves one can time travel?

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Nakomi:

 

"I am far from my roof," the woman said, wistful, "yet not far at all. Perhaps IT IS FAR from me. I cannot answer your question, apprentice, for it is not my place to give this truth" (emphasis added).

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This is a bit out there, but what if Nakomi is a Time Traveler?

 

Dark One says he can't bring someone who has been balefired, however, the DO is hardly all knowing or all powerful, otherwise the sucker would not been imprisoned.

 

In the real world, the laws of physics allow for time travel. RJ was a physicists after all. Time traveling would require the power of black hole, something which certainly a Type III civilization/intergalactic/most advanced civilization would have.

 

 

However, Randland civilization is still far too primitive for that even in Avienhda's first dream, a Type Zero civilization like our present Earth, but even less advanced.

 

 

 

In Randland, one can Travel from spot to another by ripping the hole in the Pattern. What if by changing the weaves one can time travel?

 

Not that I think they require technology to time travel, but if you combine gateways with even our current level of tech you have infinite energy which is all thats required for time travel. Once you have infinite energy pretty much anything is possible.

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the DW theory makes sense to me. The WO's have shown almost by far the most wisdom from the female channellers, and it has been stated before that they are looking to the future to try and preserve the most of a remaint of a remaint. Avi has also displayed to them the ability to rationally and very quickly come up with wise courses of action, so it isnt a far jump to think they would go in her dream and try to instigate her into thinking about their cultures future and take the results and build upon them

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"Aviendha settled down, watching the fire crackle, smelling the meat. [...] She smiled, settling back and closing her eyes for a moment, letting the day's fatigue melt away. [...] A sound came from outside her camp. Aviendha opened her eyes and jumped up, embracing the Source."

 

 

To me it seems clear that Aviendha fell asleep and that's the reason for the strange occurences. The coals appearing, the food cooking instantaneously, the pack disappearing, Aviendha accepting without question when the other person wants her to believe that she is no threat.

 

Since Aviendha wasn't using a Ter'angreal it would be a normal dream, not TAR. Someone or something visited Aviendhas private dream just like Egwene sometimes do. There would be no need for that person to know Aviendhas exact travel route in order to find her and with a strong will Nakomi could shape Aviendhas dreaming without channeling.

 

Perhaps it was a Jenn Aiel surviving in the dream world like the deceased wolves, or considering the strange mannerisms for an Aiel one of the last Aes Sedai from Rhuidean. If it was someone outside of her own time then that would explain the "I am far from my roof/yet not far at all/perhaps it is far from me" line. I agree that Nakomi behaved more like an Aes Sedai than a contemporary Aiel but the Jenn were always different from the rest of the Aiel. I suppose it still could be Verin since that same comment about beeing far away but not far away could be far away in space just as well as far away in time. Someone sleeping in their bed is bodily close to home but mentally far away (in the Aiel waste).

 

But I feel like I am rambling now. :rolleyes:

Edited by Tau
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Those are good points. But one thing, a dream walker could pull some one into TAR, they wouldn't need to enter their dreams to do that. Dream walkers who enter a persons dreams are at that persons mercy pretty much.

Edited by f3llyn
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I don't think it was Verin. It's hard to tell with the jagged timelines of the various characters, but I feel like Verin would have died before this took place.

 

Judging from how she cooked the food faster than what would normally be possible, and then disappearing without a trace along with her stuff as well as her sudden and unexpected appearance, I would theorize that Nakomi was a creation of the Pattern itself, a ghost, necessary to guide Aviendha to an important decision. Ghosts have been a recurring theme for several books now. Perhaps Aviendha is Ta'veren herself and Nakomi was the Pattern's way of nudging her in the right direction?

 

I don't think it was a dream because she would have waken up at some point and realized it was a dream...

Edited by MyKillK
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Reason I don't think she was real is Avi goes looking for her, comes back and Nakomi's stuff is missing. Seems weird to me she would go do a nature call, wait out in the darkess till Avi goes to look for her just to sneak back and grab her stuff. Seems strange to me.

 

I think that this is the most likely scenario, but it's not my favorite. I'm being persuaded by recent posts that Avi was asleep and that Nakomi entered her dream or that the Pattern caused Avi to dream this.

 

I prefer to believe that Shaiel is a rogue WO (dreamwalker?) who had reentered Rhuidean recently and was making sure that Avi saw what she'd seen. She couldn't tell her everything because she was not willing to reveal her past. I think that a post-TG reunion between Rand and his real mom is very RJ.

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My thought on this was that it wasn't a character per se, it was actually an effect of Rhuidean. I think Rhuidean sort of Produced Nakomi as a way to guarantee its own future. The conversation with Nakomi spurred Avi just enough to drive herself to reverse the direction of the rings, going through future generations instead of past generations. Once Rand went through the rings Rhuidean's old purpose was completed. Rand needed Rhuidean and then Rhuidean needed Avi. Almost like the Island on Lost... the location itself is potentially sentient.

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My thought on this was that it wasn't a character per se, it was actually an effect of Rhuidean. I think Rhuidean sort of Produced Nakomi as a way to guarantee its own future. The conversation with Nakomi spurred Avi just enough to drive herself to reverse the direction of the rings, going through future generations instead of past generations. Once Rand went through the rings Rhuidean's old purpose was completed. Rand needed Rhuidean and then Rhuidean needed Avi. Almost like the Island on Lost... the location itself is potentially sentient.

 

I like the idea of Rhuidean, or rather the Crystal column Ter'angreal, being sentient. Avi sensed something along these lines when she touched and attempted to read it.

 

There are lots of Sci-Fi notes in the WOT and the Crystal column, to me at least, comes across as a power wrought AI programmed to guide and protect the Aiel. Nakomi is the AI’s avatar is my guess.

 

 

Or maybe I’ve watched too much BSG

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@cazejay... What was the one test of being a wise one that was given Aviendha? If I recall correctly it was simply choosing to stiop doing childish things and claim the title wise one. Therefore, by Aviendha slipping back to "apprentice" she was reprimanded by "whoever" and called "child" again. I haven't read the actual section over again but this leans the whole arguments towards wise one rather than Aes Sedai/Verin. Cyndane would probably kill any of Rands lovers if she could. I do like the Jenn Aiel argument though...question I forget are the Jenn people considered Aiel or the traveling folks/followers of the way of the leaf? Another section I'm going to have to pay attention to on my reread of entire series.

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@cazejay... What was the one test of being a wise one that was given Aviendha? If I recall correctly it was simply choosing to stiop doing childish things and claim the title wise one. Therefore, by Aviendha slipping back to "apprentice" she was reprimanded by "whoever" and called "child" again.

 

Except, Aviendha was simply truthful in her "not yet a wise one" answer - she isn't. Her test was to declare herself their equal - then she has to go through the columns per tradition. The part about Sevanna being accepted because she declared - looking at Aiel culture it would not only be rude, but incur massive toh to question whether she was what she said (i.e. gone through the columns).

Apart from that, I do agree that the scene definately lends itself to being a WODW, specifically, my money is on Amys.

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I've been thinking about this. Admittedly I'm new to DM, and I'm not reading through all 19 pages of this thread, so I might have missed this already.

 

Ghosts and people who appear out of the past like the village Mat saw disappear don't interact with people, so that doesn't fit. Lanfear COULD have done it, inverting her weaves and hiding her ability to channel, and that's why she's punished, but the way she talks about the Aiel doesn't jive with the way she talked about them earlier, and she seems to know too much about the modern Aiel way of life to be her. The Forsaken were pretty ignorant of their customs in the earlier books, and it's not like Lanfear had a lot of time to learn about them. She's more likely than a ghost, Verin, or some hallucination or manifestation of Rhuidean or the columns.

 

In Avi's trip through the future, it look s like a lot more than a remnant of a remnant of the clans were saved in the short term, and further into the future it's looking like none make it after the Seanchan start wiping them out. Could there still be Jenn Aiel somewhere hidden? After all, wasn't that prophecy written by the Jenn from a foretelling made by an Aes Sedai who knew what the Aiel were supposed to be? Nakomi said "People of the Dragon. That is what we are. Serving the Dragon was the point behind everything we did. Our customs, our raids on each other, our harsh training... our very way of life." (emphasis mine) A modern Aiel probably wouldn't think that way. At most they would "follow the Car'a'carn." The Dragon is a Wetlander notion, as one Aiel or another told Rand or one of his crew in an earlier book. The raids on each other part could have been raids between the groups as they traveled together, or even after the started settling in the waste when the Jenn were still more or less active.

 

I think there are still Jenn out there, maybe hiding in some hidden valley, or another world, or maybe even with their own version of the Ogiers' Book of Translation that allowed them to go somewhere else for a time, and that is the remnant of a remnant of the Jenn Aiel, the True Aiel, that Rand will save.

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@cazejay... What was the one test of being a wise one that was given Aviendha? If I recall correctly it was simply choosing to stiop doing childish things and claim the title wise one. Therefore, by Aviendha slipping back to "apprentice" she was reprimanded by "whoever" and called "child" again.

 

Except, Aviendha was simply truthful in her "not yet a wise one" answer - she isn't. Her test was to declare herself their equal - then she has to go through the columns per tradition. The part about Sevanna being accepted because she declared - looking at Aiel culture it would not only be rude, but incur massive toh to question whether she was what she said (i.e. gone through the columns).

Apart from that, I do agree that the scene definately lends itself to being a WODW, specifically, my money is on Amys.

 

Avi didn't fall asleep though, and the food Nakomi made as real.

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Avi didn't fall asleep though, and the food Nakomi made as real.
What proof is there of that?

 

She was walking, it got dark, she made camp and a fire, started cooking, and then Nakomi showed up. Where does it say that she did fall asleep or was even tired?

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She smiled, settling back and closing her eyes for a moment, letting the day's fatigue melt away.
If it explicitly said she'd fallen asleep, the chapter would be much easier to interpret, which obviously wasn't what was being aimed for. Still, I think there are a number of things which strongly imply the conversation happened in a Dream rather than the real world, which have been detailed earlier in this thread and the Aviendha thread.
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She smiled, settling back and closing her eyes for a moment, letting the day's fatigue melt away.

This is very clear that she went to sleep at this point. Then Nakomi came (in her dream) then afterwards she woke up.

 

I really think that that is what happened. The only problem I have is... If she only dreamed that she & Nakomi ate, then what happened with her food? It should have been there when she woke up!

 

Maybe a wolf came by & ate it? We better check with Perrin

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Hello, first post :) This was my favorite part of the book, it really opened my eyes for the first time to questions I feel I should have thought about earlier in regards to the Aeil.

 

So I see a lot of Tel'aran'rhiod, Verin/WO (basically a real person or channeler), or hallucination.

 

What about Nakomi being a part of a simple dream? Aviendha's subconscious examining her and her people's place in the world. With nearly all the Aiel so focused on meeting their greatest toh, what happens afterwards? It's been repeatedly stated once toh is met it is as if it never happened. So they meet their toh, then what? Nakomi seems like a perfect expression of that line of questioning or wondering.

 

Plus 3 points:

1. Aviendha is not a dreamer and dreamers can recognize normal dreams from prophetic or Tel'aran'rhiod as we've seen in Egewene's POV's. The way she closes her eyes to rest them a moment while cooking dinner, why is it so far fetched she'd just drifted into a light sleep and created a personality to question herself (although I suppose you could call that a hallucination, like Tam in EOTW)? Also, normal dreams have been described that bear no further significance other than to further explore a character's psyche. Also, has anyone that we have seen been pulled from a dream INTO Tel'aran'rhiod (yeah we've seen pulled out of...)?

 

2. Where is Aviendha's home now? Where, deep down, would she consider home? Is it the wetlands that the Aiel always believed they are destined to return to? Is it the waste, where she spent the vast majority of her life? Do the Aiel return to the waist after fulfilling their toh?

 

3. Food that specifically reminds her of her mother. The near acceptance of the good nature of the unknown guest that will not give any information other than a first name and vague description of where she hails from. The modern Aiel are not exactly known for there tolerance (or at least easy relaxed acceptance) of others (even other Aiel).

 

 

But I dunno, the Verin idea has quite a bit of merit, plus just because she "told" Matt she couldn't go anywhere doesn't mean she was telling the truth ;) So the time-frame fits. Nothing she said seems like it would betray the Dark One, so she wouldn't have to worry about doing this right after her "special tea" (heck she may have gone before even creating the letters with the intent to betray the dark one). Also, she is all about the tea and she rambles a bit (which not many characters comment much on the rambling even if many like tea, I guess I just associated tea more with Verin than anyone else since TGS). I also could see a light compulsion in effect creating the "dreamlike" quality of the meeting, creating no memory of seeing Nakomi before, after, and possibly "erasing" time to allow that food cooked super fast, extra fuel added to the fire, no recollection of how they parted beyond a simple vanish, or that she sensed the person she just met could channel.

 

A dreamer could easily just invade her dream (if she in fact fell asleep) and it would have nothing to do with Tel'aran'rhiod to create the same dreamlike effect. So it seems plausible it could be Amys or another WO. The only problem I see is that the dreamers express the difficulty involved in "controlling" an individual's personal dream to create that kind of effect.

 

The main question with Verin is motive, IMO.... but then Verin did mention to Perrin in the Two Rivers she was interested in learning more of the Aiel (after seeing the company he kept), she also want's to do good in the world which I think we have found sufficient evidence for.

 

As for Rand's mother theories..... ummm, she was Andoran (a princess to to be exact, if I remember correctly).... I am pretty sure Aviendha wouldn't confuse a "wetlander" in normal Aiel garb... so ummm, yeah other than the previously stated she was found dead next to an infant Rand.... why would it would be her?

 

Well thanks for listening (reading?), this was just my initial thought to that chapter and subsequently the responses in this thread.

 

Points 1-3 realy knocked this one out of the park for me. I stumbled upon this post last night and reread the exchange before posting and i realy dont see any evidence that this is an apearance from Verin. I honestly didn't realy consider the "who is N" question during my first read. I believe my inital reaction was something like "wow, that was strange but nothing new on Demandred? moving on" lol. I think the Verin darkfriend double agent thing realy blew everyones mind and as such we expect more mind-blowing things from her. This is what i love about these forums tho, answers to questions i never thought to ask. What realy suprised me is that Luckers thought it was Verin too. I saw no indication of that in my initial read or my reread last night when i was looking for it. N just seems too Aiel to me. Realy think DaHuo nailed it as a projection of her subconcious and theres no reason to elaborate on the Verin possibility.

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As far as I can tell about the only good argument that this vision isn't what WILL happen is that Rand bows(and sadly why wouldn't he, ZenRand didn't mind getting getting pimp slapped 4 times in a row for the greater good). He could TV around having to bow or something. Tuan needs a humility cheek certainly. Not to mention where the prophesy to Bow comes from. But he would probably Bow. It's hinted in the visions that Avi WAS trying to change this future, or was at least alot more talkative about the future of the Aiel than she has ever been before the end of ToM. So this probably is how the warrior aiel end. The remnant that survives are the Gai'shan who refuse to take off the white and/or whatever happens with the way of the leaf/Traveling People plot. The visions also show that they don't even have gai'shan and that the word has changed in meaning for the warrior aiel. The remnant that survives( a bunch of Gai'shan no one wants to kill because they serve tea better than Morgase) turns into the highly-respected, way of the leaf following, seedsinging, servant Aiel by the next AoL. The vision makes clear that Seanchan are expanding across the wastes in a highly advanced way that Avi confuses for the Aol at first. The Seanchan probably do end up conquering. Uniting the world they have plenty of time to deal with their bad cultural aspects (slavery) by the next Aol. They even are starting to show signs of compassion in the first(Last?) vision. Yes one of them kills the wretch mercilessly but the other one pities it. Eventually they get done with the whole Damane thing on their own and the world reaches a height of One power prestige again so they can cause another bore in the perfectly sealed Do Prison. Full circle. Or as others mentioned this is how the Dark One wants it so the Light is weak the next time around. Though I don't see Damane being able to cause a new bore as they are so badly restricted.

 

K, I lied, this probably won't happen because it would be too damned easy to prevent. Avi has all the knowledge she needs. I could see this being how the Shadow wants things to happen if they lose the LB. I don't see this being a contingency plan of the Shadow if they are going to send Nakomi or whatever her name was out to get Avi working on this in the first place. Unless this is what has to happen for the wheel to come full circle in the correct way and the shadow sends Nakomi to get Avi to screw it up. I suppose Nakomi could be Verin if Avi's timeline is behind everyone elses(how many books ago did she leave for Ruidien anyway?) but probably not since everyone elses timeline was brought even.

 

Sorry for bad name spelling.

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I think she's just part of the final ritual.

Sent by the Wise Ones to make Avi think on important issues before she goes on

 

I think that you nailed it with this one. I believe she is part of the trial also. Somebody to put Avienda in the right frame of mind to learn what she needs to learn from the columns.

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When I read the first time I thought Nakomi was just a wandering Aiel woman. Or may be it was all a dream. The reason for her showing up was obviously that Avienda needed to discuss these issues out loud "on camera".

 

I think the Verin = Nakomi theory is at least as wacky as the time travel theory. The only reason anyone thinks its Verin is because some of the dialoge is reminiscent of Verin. This could just as easily be sloppy writing on the part of RJ/ Sanderson as anything. Verin's motive seems very weak. Whats her relationship with the Aiel that would cuase to to take on this sort of manipulation? And even if she were interested in the Aiel, Why pick Aviendah? We have no idea that Verin even knew who Avienda was.

 

Also the fact is that Egwene has more knowledge of the Aiel and seems to have a greater personal stake in their future than Verin and could easily have copy catted Verin's mannerism and she has a much greater immersion in Aiel culture.

 

It's all in the tuber.

 

Baking a potato, while decidedly easy, contains so many nuances. They have to be of the right size, dug up at the right time, pre-seasoned with the same mix, heated at a particular degree for a particular time. Change anything, and the difference is obvious. To make it well, let alone delicious, requires - practise. And good ingredients. (With food spoiling at short notice in Randland...)

 

There is no way Verin learned how to cook an Aiel tuber, not when the Aiel were living off grain and other food brought by the Tairens when Verin was apprenticed. Even if she learned that, there is no frigging way she learned how to cut and season the shellback, yet another Aiel "delicacy."

 

That woman is Aiel.

 

 

This. Cooking specific foods in a culturally recognisable way would be hard to fake. Aes Sedai are not chefs. Also we never see any example of AS cooking food with the OP. They are discouraged from doing things with the power that could be done in the normal way just as well. In the tower they do not cook period, servants do that. When out and about they use the power to light a fire and cook like a normal person.

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