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my personal take was that the "how" was not important next to knowing that somehow it had happened and dealing with it. The AS mentioned some possibilities, but knowing how just wasn't that important after they had established that it was in fact possible and likely that it had happened.

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Am I the only one who was badly disappointed by the way the whole Mesanna thing was played out? It was supposed to be this big deal about how she beat the Oath Rod, but then some Aes Sedai just came up with a few random weaves that she might have done and the subject never came up again. It was supposed to be this big deal about how Egwene tracked her down and figured out who she was, but then she just smoked her in Dreamland and then had people wander around to various and find Danelle lying there drooling.

 

It was a cool fight in Dreamland and all, but the whole resolution to the Mesanna plotline was just kind of anti-climactic.

Well, between a whole bunch of posters on DM, we'd guessed all the three ways Seane suggested.

We'd also come up with variations on other things, which also may be possible.

I think that this is fine.

If there are multiple ways to beat the rod in the given circumstances, it's unimportant how exactly Messi did it.

 

What disappointed me was that Egwene didn't enter TAR in the flesh and thus have Toh to the Aiel WOs, who taught her.

I was looking forward to her getting flogged.

Somehow an Egwene arc without a flogging seems incomplete. (Like an Elayne arc without a bath).

Ah well! There's always the chance that Rhuarc and Bael will do the biz in AMoL.

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Well, between a whole bunch of posters on DM, we'd guessed all the three ways Seane suggested.

We'd also come up with variations on other things, which also may be possible.

I think that this is fine.

If there are multiple ways to beat the rod in the given circumstances, it's unimportant how exactly Messi did it.

 

I think it was a matter of expectations more than anything else. I was looking forward to a detective story type of plotline where Egwene followed the available clues and tracked Mesanna down and discovered who she was hiding as, given that the question of who she was hiding as was set up as one of the big mysteries of the series. Then no tracking down was done and the whole thing was wrapped up in one sentence. It was just kind of a truncated ending to it.

 

Also, I was always on the side that Mesanna beat the Oath Rod because she didn't see saying that she wasn't a DF to be a lie. I was on that side because having her do some random and overly complex weave to just get around it just seemed like kind of a lame way to go about it. When I read that that was the way she did it, my opinion of the lameness of the method didn't change.

 

The way that the whole plotline was resolved just didn't work for me.

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Nynaeve was by far the coolest character in this novel. Perrin, Galad, and Rand were also excellent for the most part.

 

Egwene, Elayne, Verin, and Mat had their moments, but also acted very stupidly at some points, and others paid the price.

 

For the WT, Nynaeve is the only one who:

1) Gets that Rand knows what he is about

2) Correctly thinks those tests are dumb

3) Correctly thinks the way they determine precedence is dumb

4) Correctly thinks the oaths have to go (although she does take them).

 

Egwene did have her moments:

a) She correctly deduced to to box Rand's ears

b) Her idea with the Sea Folk/WT/Wise Ones is a good one.

c) Her devotion and notion to heal the tower is good.

d) Her reaching out to other leaders to gather to try to convince Rand

 

But I think there was more bad stuff than good.

 

Cringeworthy:

a) The Gawyn/Bloodknife arc. What, between Her/Siuan/Bryne nobody though there might be more assassins in the Tower like the one that almost killed Siuan? Please. After all the droning on about how smart Siuan is? Heck, and Gawyn even almost catches one, who obviously isn't a BA member, and they still can't get it right? That was weak.

b) Not dealing with the situation in Caemlyn with the embassies. Nynaeve got there and back, but no one else in the Tower could? Plenty of time here. There is a working Traveling station with the Kin in the palace, used by Gawyn repeatedly, and no one headed over the the BT in over a month? WTF!

c) I thought it was very strange to schedule an important meeting (WO/WF/WT) at precisely the same time you were trying to induce the BA out into the open.

d) After Gawyn's bonding. If she knew he was this devoted to her, she'd have bonded him weeks ago? I guess she couldn't tell by him following her around, abandoning his command and his sister and his country, and being unable to restrain himself from trying to protect her every time she was in danger, and sleeping outside her door for weeks?

e) No help for the Borderlands, or even someone to check on them? After all that time with Lan/Nynaeve and in Shienar? Weak. All the best fortifications are up there.

f) Nothing to the Borderlanders and their AS.

 

Would have liked to see:

a) What is the plan for the Red?

b) More contemplation about the Oaths and precedence and the testing and AS role (but OK for doing LB stuff first)

Edited by TheAngryDruid

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Well, between a whole bunch of posters on DM, we'd guessed all the three ways Seane suggested.

We'd also come up with variations on other things, which also may be possible.

I think that this is fine.

If there are multiple ways to beat the rod in the given circumstances, it's unimportant how exactly Messi did it.

 

I think it was a matter of expectations more than anything else. I was looking forward to a detective story type of plotline where Egwene followed the available clues and tracked Mesanna down and discovered who she was hiding as, given that the question of who she was hiding as was set up as one of the big mysteries of the series. Then no tracking down was done and the whole thing was wrapped up in one sentence. It was just kind of a truncated ending to it.

 

Also, I was always on the side that Mesanna beat the Oath Rod because she didn't see saying that she wasn't a DF to be a lie. I was on that side because having her do some random and overly complex weave to just get around it just seemed like kind of a lame way to go about it. When I read that that was the way she did it, my opinion of the lameness of the method didn't change.

 

The way that the whole plotline was resolved just didn't work for me.

Well I was one of those who assumed she'd used a version of the WO weave to fiddle with sound.

Nothing stopping you believing she did it your way.

One meta consideration: RJ may not have noted the exact method Messi used. In that case, Brandon cleverly avoided a resolution that might land him in contradictory tangles.

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Am I the only one who was badly disappointed by the way the whole Mesanna thing was played out? It was supposed to be this big deal about how she beat the Oath Rod, but then some Aes Sedai just came up with a few random weaves that she might have done and the subject never came up again. It was supposed to be this big deal about how Egwene tracked her down and figured out who she was, but then she just smoked her in Dreamland and then had people wander around to various and find Danelle lying there drooling.

 

It was a cool fight in Dreamland and all, but the whole resolution to the Mesanna plotline was just kind of anti-climactic.

 

 

No. You're certainly not. The only Forsaken deaths that have not been anticlimactic were those of Semirhage and Ishypoo at the end of TDR. Every other Forsaken death has been really disappointing.

 

I understand the need to rush things, but really, that could have been handled a little better. Personally, I would have much preferred less Gawyn talking (more Gawyn dying, maybe? heh) and more Mesaana kicking Egwene's butt. It's so utterly unbelievable to me that she would die so... pathetically. Especially after Perrin waltzed by and showed Egwene that she wasn't the "master" she thought she was. Apparently Perrin, who had been training in T'A'R seriously for not even a month, is stronger than Egwene, who is stronger than Mesaana.

 

Egwene should have died. Mesaana should have killed her, not snapped the adam around her neck. The woman was brutalized by Shaidar Haran and told not to fail, and the Forsaken are falling like flies because they always underestimate the 3rd Agers, but does Mesaana care? No. She just assumes that the Aes Sedai know what the hell a Dreamspike does, even though they have NO IDEA what practically any other ter'angreal do.

 

I'm very disappointed that the Seanchan feel like a greater threat than the Forsaken.

 

But still, this is a thread about the White Tower, yes? So, then, my comments on this:

 

 

They are all still idiots. Not that I expected any less, but they are (once again) easily outmaneuvered by Egwene. Of COURSE one of them realizes it, but at the last moment. Of COURSE they leave "shaken." These "powerful women" who curse men as foolish and unable to lead are pathetic. After 13 books I fail to see where RJ has "reversed the roles" of men and women, except in giving women the "right" to be haughty. It seems to me that more and more the women are made to look weak and stupid and, really, incapable of ruling.

 

And of COURSE Gawyn lived because Egwene bonded him. I knew it the second he killed the three of them. There was no other possible outcome in this world where good guys simply do not die. The pattern needs them, after all. Oh how I hope the pattern kills them all.

 

This particular plotline has made me very bitter toward the series as a whole (it's not too obvious, is it? :p). But, alas, not everyone can like everything.

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But isn't it what Rand is currently doing too? He is intending to break the Seals and Travel to SG without a clue what he needs to do there. Hoping that, as many times previously, the Pattern will provide. Personally, I always felt that it was a very intricate trap, to get Rand and the other ta'veren to rely on the Pattern so completely and then yank that rug away at the crucial moment. But by this point, I am honestly not sure.

 

You may well be right. I continue to hope that Rand has some plan that has not been shared with us yet. Like you I'm unsure, but still trying desperately to hope somebody at long last does something intelligent. Twelve for sure ( and maybe thirteen now ) books of everybody being stupid is eleven books too many.

 

To me it seems clear what he intends to do.

 

He IS LTT now. He knows how to seal the bore again. But this time, he wants help from the female channelers, unlike the last time. True, it is pretty vague, but I think he knows what he is doing. Thats the impression I got.

 

It was a bit annoying that he didnt explain himself to Egwene, I mean, it was him just saying "oh, by the way, Im going to set the DO free to seal him up"

However, as someone mentioned somewhere, I think that Rand was actually counting on the fact that Egwene would opppose him. It certainly turned out ot be the easiest way to get the forces of the Light to gather while Rand was free to run round killing trollocs at maradon etc..

 

I'm pretty sure he really has no idea what he is doing. LTT failed to seal the bore without touching the DO directly... RJ said in an interview that if he had of brought women with him, saider would just be tainted as well. It definitely has something to do with Callandor, but he's still not sure... pretty much just flying by the seat of his pants and Egwene knows this.

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c) I thought it was very strange to schedule an important meeting (WO/WF/WT) at precisely the same time you were trying to induce the BA out into the open.

That meeting was scheduled to be the bait, it was deliberate.

Apart from that, terrific post that I agree with muchly.

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She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

I was disappointed that Egwene did nothing to really prepare the White Tower for Tarmon Gaidon, though, and abandoned prosecution of war to a committee(!). WT needs to redeem itself and this makes it very unlikely that it will.

.

 

YES! Someone who agrees. I really thought she was going to do some awesome stuff since tGS, but ToM really made me dislike her again. True enough, she SHOULD be wary of Rand's plan to break the seals.

 

However, as you said, she isnt actually doing anything about it.

 

All she is doing is disrupting Rand's plan by gathering people against him. She SHOUlD be thinking of an alternate plan to present to him, not just say "you cant do it.."

 

Hopefully she has been doing something like that offscreen, but i dont think so.

 

I thought that was the point? for Egwene to come up with a better way, thats why he told her. Or maybe he wanted them united by the white tower instead of by the dragon reborn for the future?

 

Also, i think egwene still has control of the army to a degree. She has compelte control of the WT interactions with Rand. She signs a promise to give rand the WT armies, and bang she only dealt with rand but commited the WT soldiers.

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But isn't it what Rand is currently doing too? He is intending to break the Seals and Travel to SG without a clue what he needs to do there. Hoping that, as many times previously, the Pattern will provide. Personally, I always felt that it was a very intricate trap, to get Rand and the other ta'veren to rely on the Pattern so completely and then yank that rug away at the crucial moment. But by this point, I am honestly not sure.

 

You may well be right. I continue to hope that Rand has some plan that has not been shared with us yet. Like you I'm unsure, but still trying desperately to hope somebody at long last does something intelligent. Twelve for sure ( and maybe thirteen now ) books of everybody being stupid is eleven books too many.

 

To me it seems clear what he intends to do.

 

He IS LTT now. He knows how to seal the bore again. But this time, he wants help from the female channelers, unlike the last time. True, it is pretty vague, but I think he knows what he is doing. Thats the impression I got.

 

It was a bit annoying that he didnt explain himself to Egwene, I mean, it was him just saying "oh, by the way, Im going to set the DO free to seal him up"

However, as someone mentioned somewhere, I think that Rand was actually counting on the fact that Egwene would opppose him. It certainly turned out ot be the easiest way to get the forces of the Light to gather while Rand was free to run round killing trollocs at maradon etc..

 

I'm pretty sure he really has no idea what he is doing. LTT failed to seal the bore without touching the DO directly... RJ said in an interview that if he had of brought women with him, saider would just be tainted as well. It definitely has something to do with Callandor, but he's still not sure... pretty much just flying by the seat of his pants and Egwene knows this.

 

I am afraid Rand knows exactly what he is doing. He wants to use saidar and saidin. He did not know that saidar would have been tainted if they used both women and men in the previous sealing, however, it doesnt matter. There is no guarentee that the tainting will happen again. In fact, its improbable.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

 

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

Chances are small that it would happen again. Rand knows his plan, he doesnt care what Egwene thinks. He merely used her to gather the armies. He knows the plan already and he is doing it no matter what.

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I think the Tower is as bad as the Seanchan when it comes to the LB. They both think Rand will be subservient to them while they really run things. Then when the big moment comes they say, "Go get him" and he'll win but it will be in there honor.

 

The only difference between Elidia and Egwene's plan for dealing with Rand is Egwene was going to use less torture and imprisonment. But she always thought Rand should do what she says.

 

And I would like to mention the biggest thing that urked me about Egwene.

 

It was how she treated Gawyn. He literally gave up everything for her, and to her it wasn't enough. He saves her life, she gives him grief for spoiling her plans she didn't tell him about even though she knows he is spending the night outside her door. She sends him away, he leaves, she get mad that he leaves. When he sent the messenger back with the response he did I gave a little cheer. Even at the end when he send Perrin was gathering support for Rand she was like, "well, what do you know?"

 

I never thought Egwene could ever look worse to me then Faile at her worst. Faile didn't care what Perrin had or didn't have she just wanted him.

 

All the love she earned in the last book was squandered in this one.

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I never thought Egwene could ever look worse to me then Faile at her worst. Faile didn't care what Perrin had or didn't have she just wanted him.

 

All the love she earned in the last book was squandered in this one.

 

Ya, she really was kind of Faile-ish in this book. She makes a fairly random and unrealistic standard of what she thinks a man should be and then punishes Gawyn for not being that and instead having the audacity to have a personality of his own. Heading home to Camelyn was the best decision he made in the book.

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Maybe I've missed something but were there any mentions of Duhara after the story of her negotiating with Elenia? Shouldn't she either have been tracked down by Elayne after her meeting with Egwene? Egwene knows that Elaidas sent advisor to Caemlyn was Black Ajah but we never got to see her mention that or for that matter Elayne mention her after that meeting... And shouldn't Egwene have reported this fact to Elayne before the reports of Duharas meetings with Elenia?

 

Didn't seem like Duhara was a part of the BA rescue team in Elaynes dungeon either, were did she go? joined the other black sisters? Seemes like there were some loose ends here.

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agreed. Egwene loses most of her awesome points from the past 2 books in this one. But then, this is no big surprise. As early as Eye of the World she has sucked at relationships with men, just look how awful she treated Rand back then.

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Maybe I've missed something but were there any mentions of Duhara after the story of her negotiating with Elenia? Shouldn't she either have been tracked down by Elayne after her meeting with Egwene? Egwene knows that Elaidas sent advisor to Caemlyn was Black Ajah but we never got to see her mention that or for that matter Elayne mention her after that meeting... And shouldn't Egwene have reported this fact to Elayne before the reports of Duharas meetings with Elenia?

 

Didn't seem like Duhara was a part of the BA rescue team in Elaynes dungeon either, were did she go? joined the other black sisters? Seemes like there were some loose ends here.

 

Duhara seems to be hanging round Caemlyn still, she's spotted in ch.11 pretending to meet with Ellorien Traemane. After that she disappears.

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You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Also, Nynaeve's testing was very interesting. She made several points that needed to be made about the Aes Sedai's beliefs of whats worthy. Add the fact of Moiraine, who though with an angreal is still effective, is in fact too weak in the Power to hold the shawl--but is nevertheless a fully bound Aes Sedai under Egwene's silly conception of what makes an Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai. I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

 

Regarding Moiraine, saving her was required to save the world right? Rand mentioned he wants Nynaeve to use Callandor with him, I bet he'd want Moiraine to be the second when he sees her alive. I don't think Rand will choose the second person based on strength in the power, it'd be based on the reasons he mentioned to Nynaeve, trust. And we keep heering everybody say how Moiraine was the one AE that rand listened to. What do you think?

 

My bet is on Lanfear, after being rescued by Rand, being the second. Just seems to obvious to me... And not only because of their past histories together and her strength, but also, Rand will need the experience and knowledge of an female Aes Sadai from the Age of Legends as part of the link to help seal the bore (given Rand / LT's the lack of knowledge in not working with women the last time).

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i wonder if the seanchan assault would occur when the discussion at the fields is taking place

 

It will certainly be interesting when it happens. It doesn't appear that the Tower has made any preparations for future assaults and again believes it's invulnerable. I'm personally hoping for the Tower to fall. A new start is the only way you'll get the Ashaman and Aes Sedi to eventually see each other as equals.

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I think Egwene's portrayal in this book was mostly a matter of narrative necessity. One of the downsides of reading (or writing, even more so I imagine) a story whose ending is already planned is that you have to have certain events happen to get there. Consider...

 

Let's make Egwene totally sensible for a second. She realizes that Rand probably has a good idea of what he is doing, or at least that by making it this far he has proven not to be totally incompetent. She gives him the benefit of the doubt, so the massive gathering at the end doesn't happen. All well and good if the story doesn't require that gathering, but if it is a major plot point then the writer is somewhat railroaded by plot to make events happen as they did.

 

Same with Gawyn. Egwene doesn't act like a crazy teenage girl in love, so Gawyn doesn't run off to Camelyn. Not only does he not learn about the bloodknives as a result, but he also never comes to the realizations he had there regarding himself, rand and his place in the world. Again that's fine if Gawyn is meant to be the same Rand-hating idiot, but if the plot requires that growth from him, you have to get there somehow.

 

I think it comes down to the requirements of plot. In some cases (like Bornhald, IMO) it is handled excellently, in others not so much. But I do think it was written as it had to be to get the story where it is meant to go.

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Maybe I've missed something but were there any mentions of Duhara after the story of her negotiating with Elenia? Shouldn't she either have been tracked down by Elayne after her meeting with Egwene? Egwene knows that Elaidas sent advisor to Caemlyn was Black Ajah but we never got to see her mention that or for that matter Elayne mention her after that meeting... And shouldn't Egwene have reported this fact to Elayne before the reports of Duharas meetings with Elenia?

 

Didn't seem like Duhara was a part of the BA rescue team in Elaynes dungeon either, were did she go? joined the other black sisters? Seemes like there were some loose ends here.

 

Duhara seems to be hanging round Caemlyn still, she's spotted in ch.11 pretending to meet with Ellorien Traemane. After that she disappears.

 

Yes I meant Ellorien when I wrote Elenia...

 

Still doesnt explain why Elayne doesnt understand about her alliances considering the Egwene factor.

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i wonder if the seanchan assault would occur when the discussion at the fields is taking place

 

It will certainly be interesting when it happens. It doesn't

appear that the Tower has made any preparations for future assaults and again believes it's invulnerable. I'm personally hoping for the Tower to fall. A new start is the only way you'll get the Ashaman and Aes Sedi to eventually see each other as equals.

 

 

Well it would make sense if that happens since Elaida had a Foretelling about the BT being bathed in blood and fire with Sisters walking it's grounds.

So they end up purging the BT of weird Dark Clones/ turned channellers.

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By the end of ToM the White Tower is actually in a very good position to deal with the Seanchan, because Teslyn's group has arrived in Tar Valon.

 

Teslyn and Edesina know the damane kennels in Ebou Dar well enough to Travel their. Bethamin and Seta obviously no longer think leashing women is right, and feel it's their duty to deal with the problem. They would also likely know where the damane are kept in many other Seanchan held cities. Leilwin also thinks leashing women is wrong, and must have a reason to want to go to Tar Valon (it's now even more likely she's the Seanchan woman with a sword, the wavering face being her Egeanin/Leilwin conflict). Juilin wants to see the Seanchan squished for what they did to Thera, and he's very familiar with skulking about the palace in Ebou Dar.

 

Teslyn, Joline, Edesina, Bethamin and Seta, at least, know Tuon can be taught to channel.

 

The Aes Sedai know the Seanchan likely have Travelling by now, and some would certainly be working to mitigate that threat. I expect a second Seanchan raid of the Tower would be far less successful. Also, given that danger, I don't see the Tower twiddling their thumbs over the problem.

 

All this adds up to the Aes Sedai striking back at the Seanchan. A carefully planned attack to capture damane or sul'dam could easily cripple the Seanchan without much collateral damage to the empire's soldiers or political structure. Alternatively, getting Tuon to start channeling would force her to deal head-on with the damane problem herself.

 

-- dwn

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i wonder if there is much time for aes sedai v/s seanchan assault, the discussion at the fields is one day before rand goes to Shayol Ghul.

 

so i think the seanchan will start there assault, then probably an aes sedai will travel to the fields with the news and rand and egwene will team up to finally do something about them.

 

and adding to that avi's vision of the future, she will likely tell rand that the dragon's peace with the seanchan will have to happen with a view of not collaring anymore channelers.

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She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Was Moiraine weakened to finally demolish the OP hierarchy? I really hope that we won't see her being bossed by every other AS in existence and serving everybody tea... Surely her legend status should be good for something!

 

I think that will happen eventually, but not in this series. The stilling and then re-healing of Siuan and Leane also will affect the power structure of the Tower eventually.

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i wonder if there is much time for aes sedai v/s seanchan assault, the discussion at the fields is one day before rand goes to Shayol Ghul.

 

so i think the seanchan will start there assault, then probably an aes sedai will travel to the fields with the news and rand and egwene will team up to finally do something about them.

 

and adding to that avi's vision of the future, she will likely tell rand that the dragon's peace with the seanchan will have to happen with a view of not collaring anymore channelers.

 

I'm tempted to agree, but look how much book space the first Seanchan attack took. Or the Tower of Genjei sequence. Or the defense of Maradon. So much can happen in 30 pages I think it's quite likely -something- will happen to bring the Seanchan conflict to a boil.

 

The only major side plots left are the Seanchan situation, the Black Tower, and the new Rand/Lanfear connection. All that seems easily doable in the last book.

 

-- dwn

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