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Perrin's Arc


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One good thing that came about is we now know how Rand stoped Ishy's balefire in tDR.

 

I really enjoyed Perrin in this book, but then unlike some/most readers I didn't mind his povs in the earlier books. And now I will spend the following year or more trying to crack who the hell is the Broken Wolf. If Perrin dose end up dying in aMoL, I would congragulate RJ on killing a character that readers have such emotional attachment to...if he had decided to kill all three of the ta'veren I would have burnt the book though (good thing Mat has his get out of jail for free card).

 

They are different:

 

Rand stopped balefire by using the power of Callandor. The balefire did not cease to exist, but parted at the tip of Callandor and took out the columns behind Rand. If Ishamael had done this in the real world, same thing would have happened. Callandor is no mere very powerful sa'angreal.

 

Perrin made the balefire cease to exist, he treated it like any other weave/thing in TAR. This will of course not work in the real world.

 

 

If Perrin does die in aMoL, it would truly be shocking and certainly a titantic blow to the Light side. Didn't Min imply that all 3 ta'avern must live in order for the Light to be victrious? Pushing back the Shadow and all.

 

In a battle with Slayer? Double death scenario? His rescue of Rand?

 

 

 

The 'broken wolf' could be Lan!

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One thing Perrin has over Egwene in TAR is fighting experience. Egwene used her time in TAR to spy and meet with people, she never really did battle even against the two BA in tDR she, sneaked up on them and shielded them. In that same book, at that same time, Perrin was battling his way through Dream Stone of Tear to rescue Faile. Next book while Egwene was being trained by the WO he was scouting trollocs and fighting slayer in dreamland.

 

I think one of her dreams referred to this:

Perrin stepping willingly over the edge of a towering cliff while saying, "It must be done. I must learn to fly before I reach the bottom."

 

So every "lesson" he had in TAR was with his life on the line. That makes a truly motivated pupil. If Egwene botched her lessons she would have to scrub pots or run laps around camp.

 

It was no surprise to me when he Neoed her Trinity. And I think she will never be his equal in TAR.

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Sorry if this has been covered...

 

Did the whole "my channelers are too tired for gateways" plotline seem contrived to anyone else? Have we seen anybody else so exhausted by prior channeling that they were inhibited for such an extended period of time?

 

The only justification I can see is that it's somewhat similar to Verin's repeatedly foiled attempts to Travel.

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Sorry if this has been covered...

 

Did the whole "my channelers are too tired for gateways" plotline seem contrived to anyone else? Have we seen anybody else so exhausted by prior channeling that they were inhibited for such an extended period of time?

 

The only justification I can see is that it's somewhat similar to Verin's repeatedly foiled attempts to Travel.

well all teh ashaman where attacked by snakes. So a long lasting neurotoxin could have been injected making them too tired or unable to function

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Sorry if this has been covered...

 

Did the whole "my channelers are too tired for gateways" plotline seem contrived to anyone else? Have we seen anybody else so exhausted by prior channeling that they were inhibited for such an extended period of time?

 

The only justification I can see is that it's somewhat similar to Verin's repeatedly foiled attempts to Travel.

well all teh ashaman where attacked by snakes. So a long lasting neurotoxin could have been injected making them too tired or unable to function

 

I think that bubble of evil happened days / weeks after the battle with the Shaido. I agree with DemandredFO, it seems to be a contrivance of the Pattern.

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It has been mentioned that Perrin will next save Rand in TAR. I see this as possible and I see the possibility of Rand going to TAR in the Flesh and taking Perrin with him. it is similar to a gateway afterall. We do not know if it is impossible to take someone else into the dream physically. Wr know that they can be removed from the dream (Sorta - See Birgitte) and Egwene asked the WO's if it was possible to bring someone else into TAR and they stated that it was forbidden IIRC. Note, not impossible but forbidden and evil. Did n't the BA somehow interact with Amethera/Thera in the dream somehow? How could they do that without the training or a Ter'angreal like the disk?

 

Anyway all that to say this. Then Perrin will be on equal footing with Slayer and be able to smash his head with the Hammer!

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Sorry if this has been covered...

 

Did the whole "my channelers are too tired for gateways" plotline seem contrived to anyone else? Have we seen anybody else so exhausted by prior channeling that they were inhibited for such an extended period of time?

 

The only justification I can see is that it's somewhat similar to Verin's repeatedly foiled attempts to Travel.

well all teh ashaman where attacked by snakes. So a long lasting neurotoxin could have been injected making them too tired or unable to function

The whole "Gates will not be able to move people quickly enough" thing seems contrived.

What's to stop Grady/ Neald tying off Gates and opening a whole series of them?

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I don't think them being tired was contrived. They had been channeling a lot and the snakes seemed to be specially affective against channelers. But you do make a good point there Sharaman, and I don't know the answer.

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I don't think them being tired was contrived. They had been channeling a lot and the snakes seemed to be specially affective against channelers. But you do make a good point there Sharaman, and I don't know the answer.

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On Slayer and shadow hounds...

 

Could Slayers goal in killing wolves in the TAR, be so that finally the Dark One can gain access to the souled of wolves and reincarnate them, ablitely corrupted, into shadow hounds?

 

On Perrin and channeling in dreams...

 

The point of Perrin telling Egwene that, "..balefire is just a weave..." is that everything in TAR is a "concept" of the mind. There is no weaving in dreams just a thought. All the Aes Sedais running around channeling are just wishing weaves into existence.

 

On Perrins Power-wrought Hammer...

 

I believe a hidden effect maybe to shatters whatever binds the shadow to physical forms. Much like When Rand "cut" Asmodean from the True Source, Perrin may now find himself with this power. Obviously, this may play into the actual slaying of Slayer, as well as freeing the "13x13 compelled" channelers.

Another effect may be that anything crafted by this hammer will get a +1 on all rolls.

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It isn't fair comparing Perrin to Egwene. They belong to different schools of fighting. Er, TAR.

 

If they fought each other in TAR, Perrin would destroy her. Perrin became stronger once he finally accepted him wolf side near the end of the book. Perrin will eventually become stronger than Slayer/strongest being in TAR.

 

In terms of TAR strength, thus far (Perrin will over take Slayer once he kills him): Slayer >= Perrin > Egwene >= Moggy > Lanfear > Rand > Ishamael

 

As Perrin said, he rules TAR. No weave, including balefire has any affect on him. Unless a channeler has a massively powerfuly sa'angreal with them (Choden Khal, Callandor), they are at disadvantage (too used to using weaves, which take time).

 

"He was a wolf; he was the ruler of this place. Weaves were meaningless. He imagined the woman's attack missing him; he knew it would be so."

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It has been mentioned that Perrin will next save Rand in TAR. I see this as possible and I see the possibility of Rand going to TAR in the Flesh and taking Perrin with him. it is similar to a gateway afterall. We do not know if it is impossible to take someone else into the dream physically. Wr know that they can be removed from the dream (Sorta - See Birgitte) and Egwene asked the WO's if it was possible to bring someone else into TAR and they stated that it was forbidden IIRC. Note, not impossible but forbidden and evil. Did n't the BA somehow interact with Amethera/Thera in the dream somehow? How could they do that without the training or a Ter'angreal like the disk?

 

Anyway all that to say this. Then Perrin will be on equal footing with Slayer and be able to smash his head with the Hammer!

 

 

Once he accepted his wolf side completely and achieved balance, he became stronger. We will see if that is strong enough to beat Slayer. Anyway, that awesome hammer will also give Perrin an edge. No way Slayer is going to be able to block that bad boy with his hands.

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It has been mentioned that Perrin will next save Rand in TAR. I see this as possible and I see the possibility of Rand going to TAR in the Flesh and taking Perrin with him. it is similar to a gateway afterall. We do not know if it is impossible to take someone else into the dream physically. Wr know that they can be removed from the dream (Sorta - See Birgitte) and Egwene asked the WO's if it was possible to bring someone else into TAR and they stated that it was forbidden IIRC. Note, not impossible but forbidden and evil. Did n't the BA somehow interact with Amethera/Thera in the dream somehow? How could they do that without the training or a Ter'angreal like the disk?

 

Anyway all that to say this. Then Perrin will be on equal footing with Slayer and be able to smash his head with the Hammer!

 

 

Once he accepted his wolf side completely and achieved balance, he became stronger. We will see if that is strong enough to beat Slayer. Anyway, that awesome hammer will also give Perrin an edge. No way Slayer is going to be able to block that bad boy with his hands.

thats the beauty of slayer, he fights on multiple levels. if perrin tried to hit him as hard as he could all slayer would have to do is imagine himself as mist and the hammer would go through. slayer is so good at tar he can make his blade turn to mist so it cant be blocked to real in meer seconds. Perrin has to stabilize slayers body in order to block and attack him

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Edit: Incidentally the portal stone usage clears up two/ three mysteries. 1) shadowspawn attack in the waste 2) Algiarin's manor 3) Ebou Dar- Tylee being ambushed.

Also, it appears that even weak channelers can jump large numbers of trollocs via portal stones so Rand was being inefficient in his usage in TGH and TSR.

 

Quote didn't work sorry

 

Not really, the weak channeler near Perrin was appearing and disappearing imply that he was bringing in many Amal groups rather than one large group of trollocs.

 

Unrelated detail blacksmiths may not like having to repeatedly return a piece of metal to the fire every few strokes of the hammer, but let's be honest a human can't operate a hammer for smithing for more than a few seconds at a time, Perrin doing it for as long as he did is not even close to possible

 

Grandel mentions "wow they found one Dream Spike?!" she was shocked one was found likelihood of two surfacing at the same time...

 

Perrin not guilty of illegal killing. Whitecloaks accusing Perrin talk about how they are so reasonable and had they met egwene and perrin they would share their fire sing camp songs and roast marshmallows, but every single human who is not a whitecloak knows they are a bunch of fanatics and would have kidnapped/captured Perrin and egwene assume they were darkfriends for little or no reason (the fact that they were far from common roads and did not look like rural peddlers would have been more than enough) Morgase knew that. Galad should know by now (after Asuwana) that whitecloaks are often not rational nor trust worthy.

And Perrin was her subject at the time and was allowed to be there, whitecloaks were invading Andor and should have repeled by any means, Morgase should have given Perrin a metal and rebuked the whitecloaks.

 

Of course hated how Tam was with Perrin past the middle of book, when he was with Rand before end of last book

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Of course hated how Tam was with Perrin past the middle of book, when he was with Rand before end of last book

 

Due to the fact that tGS/ToM/aMoL were all slated to be 1 single book, the splitting left some timelines unresolved in between books. This is one of them. In Perrin's POV (up until he sees Rand on dragonmount in TAR) his timeline was still behind.

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Perrin & FAIL still suck, although Perrin less so in this book - he had some nice scenes, and partly shed his douchebaggyness.

 

Fail is a total failure - one chapter about bitching to some Quartermaster, then another about bitching to Berrelain, while we have to read all the time how greatly she was trained to the subtleties of court and politics.

 

Her ultimate failure is to travel to Elaynes court and accept a mere stuart job for her hubby... The deal may sound good to some, but it still makes Perrin one step below Elayne, which is unacceptable for a Manetheren ruler.

 

I just cant stand anyone who bows to Elayne, she's a highnosed brat, nothing more.

Edited by Lena
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Perrin & FAIL still suck, although Perrin less so in this book - he had some nice scenes, and partly shed his douchebaggyness.

 

Fail is a total failure - one chapter about bitching to some Quartermaster, then another about bitching to Berrelain, while we have to read all the time how greatly she was trained to the subtleties of court and politics.

 

Her ultimate failure is to travel to Elaynes court and accept a mere stuart job for her hubby... The deal may sound good to some, but it still makes Perrin one step below Elayne, which is unacceptable for a Manetheren ruler.

 

I just cant stand anyone who bows to Elayne, she's a highnosed brat, nothing more.

 

Faile bowed to Perrin's wishes about the title of Steward, not Elayne's wishes. And Steward of the Two Rivers for the Lord Dragon does not equal less than Elayne. She is the sovereign ruler of a nation that no longer includes the TR. She is "giving" it to Rand, that is not opinion, but according to text.

 

"Give the Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn," Morgase said.

Elayne's eyes lit up, "Yes. That would work and if I gave to him to be his seat in Andor..."

 

Therefore it is a totally independent government and entity, NOT answerable to Elayne, only to Rand. And if you think Rand is going to argue with whatever Perrin wants to do there, you are a sheep-brained looby.

Perrin got exactly what he went there wanting. Elayne got a way to save face, and nothing else. What is the problem with those results? That someone gave Elayne a way to save face? Oh well. Not gonna bother with how uncompromising that thought is.

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"Give the Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn," Morgase said.

Elayne's eyes lit up, "Yes. That would work and if I gave to him to be his seat in Andor..."

 

Therefore it is a totally independent government and entity, NOT answerable to Elayne, only to Rand. And if you think Rand is going to argue with whatever Perrin wants to do there, you are a sheep-brained looby.

Perrin got exactly what he went there wanting. Elayne got a way to save face, and nothing else. What is the problem with those results? That someone gave Elayne a way to save face? Oh well. Not gonna bother with how uncompromising that thought is.

 

Elayne gave it to Rand to be his seat in Andor. She was giving him an Andoran title and estates similar to, but greater than, the other aristocratic houses (Elayne herself is High Seat of Trakand). That makes Perrin her subordinate through Rand.

 

-- dwn

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"Give the Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn," Morgase said.

Elayne's eyes lit up, "Yes. That would work and if I gave to him to be his seat in Andor..."

 

Therefore it is a totally independent government and entity, NOT answerable to Elayne, only to Rand. And if you think Rand is going to argue with whatever Perrin wants to do there, you are a sheep-brained looby.

Perrin got exactly what he went there wanting. Elayne got a way to save face, and nothing else. What is the problem with those results? That someone gave Elayne a way to save face? Oh well. Not gonna bother with how uncompromising that thought is.

 

Elayne gave it to Rand to be his seat in Andor. She was giving him an Andoran title and estates similar to, but greater than, the other aristocratic houses (Elayne herself is High Seat of Trakand). That makes Perrin her subordinate through Rand.

 

-- dwn

 

I agree that the wording leaves enough ambiguity to it to see it that way, and I suppose we might find out in aMoL. I instead interpreted the whole seat in Andor as = to ceding the land to Rand (the same way she ceded the land to the Sea Folk as part of the bargain) with the intent that Rand would be High Lord/King/Emperor/(insert random ultimate title here) of the area (call it the TR or Aemon's Grave or whatever). Not answerable to her as Queen. The land would be Rand's not Andor's after the giving, and therefore up to Rand to bestow titles within it. I hope that AMoL comes with a detailed post-LB map (sealed in an envelope and stuck to back cover, so that you can avoid looking at it until after reading the book if you choose).

Edited by Ishadar
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I really don't think it's fair to say that Perrin is the master of Tel'aran'rhiod and stronger than Egwene. We can see that even with dreamwalkers who have been in TAR for hundreds of years (Mesaana, Moghedien, Lanfear, etc) there are still things that they did not understand that Perrin did. TAR is a world of dreams - basically anything you dream can and will come into existence but the stronger you believe it and the stronger your will is, the more solid and "real" the thing is in TAR.

 

Egwene is not weaker than Perrin, she simply didn't really understand the concept that he did. He WAS the wolf and this was the wolf dream and so he accepted that things in TAR can be manipulated, as in the case where he eliminated the balefire. Egwene was still looking at weaves as something apart from TAR, Perrin saw them as a part of it that could be stopped. But after Perrin showed this to her, Egwene got it; SHE was the Amyrlin Seat and the White Tower was HER domain...so she stopped Katerine's weaves and threw a spear THROUGH a weave of Air because...it was just a weave to her now.

 

Egwene is still learning the Dream so I'm not sure how powerful she will actually become in it...and I think when the Wise Ones say she is a powerful dreamwalker, they speak to her Talent as a Dreamer...but basically anyone can be as powerful as they want to be in the World of Dreams if they are not limited by their own thoughts and concepts. So Perrin out-understood the dream for a moment, but Egwene caught on and "leveled up" as it were.

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egwene understood this before, but she also knew that some weaves gain power (personally i think that weaves with moer spirit will be super powerful in tar)

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I instead interpreted the whole seat in Andor as = to ceding the land to Rand (the same way she ceded the land to the Sea Folk as part of the bargain) with the intent that Rand would be High Lord/King/Emperor/(insert random ultimate title here) of the area (call it the TR or Aemon's Grave or whatever). Not answerable to her as Queen. The land would be Rand's not Andor's after the giving, and therefore up to Rand to bestow titles within it.

 

Your "interpretation" is really self-deception.

There is not really room for interpretation when she states seat in Andor.

Since she is the queen of Andor, Rand is her hubby, the 2 rivers belong to her,

which is totally undeserved, but what do you expect from somebody who just walked into the Caemlyn Castle without even thanking Rand, to take the throne that the degenerate Trakand family lost to a forsaken before.

 

Obviously the Trakands are inbred and mentally ill by now like most royal inbreds, Galath being the least affected :)

 

Perrin is now nothing but a seat-warmer, who could theoretically and legally be replaced anytime Elayne and Rand decide to do so, or if they want to give the land to one of their offspring.

 

It was the "easy way out solution" for Perrin and Faile.

Of course Elayne has not "real" power over TR, at least as long Perrin lives..., but legally it is hers now (more so than ever before!).

Edited by Lena
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