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Why was Perrin able to enter the White Tower with the dome without it effecting Egwene et al. physically as the dome reached them? Does this make sense?

 

Makes sense and is an excellent question.

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I think you would automatically pass inside of it, and the dome wasnt just flowing, it kept restructuring every however far he could jump, so one moment they would be out, then next they would be in. I think its due to him having held it and the dome flickering in and out and he 'teleported' to the edge of the bubble

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I think you would automatically pass inside of it, and the dome wasnt just flowing, it kept restructuring every however far he could jump, so one moment they would be out, then next they would be in. I think its due to him having held it and the dome flickering in and out and he 'teleported' to the edge of the bubble

 

Wax off, wax on. Dome off, dome on, Mr. Miyagi?

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I keep coming back to the prophesy and that in previous books the prophesy at the end of the book had been fulfilled somewhere in that book.

 

So in thinking about the Broken Wolf, I still feel that the strongest fulfillment of that in this book is Jain. I know that there is not any mention of him being called a wolf that I can think of but consider these things.

 

His spirit was pretty much broken before meeting up with Mat. He was not anything like Jain Farstrider. He was also considered a DF by the Malkieri, and if it was not true, that could have been something that would make him considered broken.

 

And you cannot say that Death has not known him. He was thought to be dead for years. This could make that arguement.

 

And the Finn Towers could be the Towers of Midnight.

 

As to his fall shaking the men and all that, he was Malkieri and they have gathered for the first time in years. I am assuming that when Mat does tell them what happened as he was asked to do, there might be regret and doubt cast upon his DF status, causing them to be fearful and sorrowful and all that.

 

Maybe a bit of a stretch, but it seems to me to be the only plausable explanation from within the book. Itrualde did not fall to the Towers. Nor Perrin or Hopper. So this seems most likely.

 

Bash away! :wink::flamingsword:

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I think you would automatically pass inside of it, and the dome wasnt just flowing, it kept restructuring every however far he could jump, so one moment they would be out, then next they would be in. I think its due to him having held it and the dome flickering in and out and he 'teleported' to the edge of the bubble

 

This makes sense. Thanks!

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What do we think the significance of Perrin witnessing Rand on Dragonmount was? We know the wolves were there to lend support to Rand. Could Perrin have been essentially doing the same thing? Min foretold that Perrin would need to be around Rand two times to save him...or something like that. Could this have been the second time?

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Byar has always had that DF feel. And it could easily go all the way back to the meeting with various DFs and Ishy. There was at least a couple whitecloaks, and killing Mat and Perrin can easily be tasks sent to them. There have been a few times Byar has tried to kill Perrin either directly or indirectly.

 

Yeah, that's my feeling too. I thought he was a DF when they first met up and he tried to get Perrin to escape so he could kill them. I then think he was Compulsed a bit, leading to his completely crazy bit, because he didn't seem crazy early on.

 

OTOH, his growing ever more and more fixated on Perrin could've just been a simple command for him to kill Perrin or suffer the consequences.

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I keep coming back to the prophesy and that in previous books the prophesy at the end of the book had been fulfilled somewhere in that book.

 

So in thinking about the Broken Wolf, I still feel that the strongest fulfillment of that in this book is Jain. I know that there is not any mention of him being called a wolf that I can think of but consider these things.

 

His spirit was pretty much broken before meeting up with Mat. He was not anything like Jain Farstrider. He was also considered a DF by the Malkieri, and if it was not true, that could have been something that would make him considered broken.

 

And you cannot say that Death has not known him. He was thought to be dead for years. This could make that arguement.

 

And the Finn Towers could be the Towers of Midnight.

 

As to his fall shaking the men and all that, he was Malkieri and they have gathered for the first time in years. I am assuming that when Mat does tell them what happened as he was asked to do, there might be regret and doubt cast upon his DF status, causing them to be fearful and sorrowful and all that.

 

Maybe a bit of a stretch, but it seems to me to be the only plausable explanation from within the book. Itrualde did not fall to the Towers. Nor Perrin or Hopper. So this seems most likely.

 

Bash away! :wink::flamingsword:

 

 

I came to the same conclusion with Noal being the dead wolf... with Thom to spread the tale in a ballad, that would certainly make men weep.

 

The only problem is the "Towers of Midnight" are in SEANCHAN... at the risk of quoting the glossary at the end of the book... "Towers of Midnight, the: Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong"

 

Personally i think Noal's death matched best... but that doesn't mean i am right...

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The action will never move to Seanchan, so unless a character goes there specifically to die it could, easily, be being used metaphorically, after all it is always night in Finnland, and the tower Noal died in was black.

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But the hammer forging was an interesting event, and possibly one of my favorite scenes. It conveyed a sense of importance with the act that was done by how drained the Asha'man were. Plus i have this image in my head of a mixture between Perrin and Thrall wielding doomhammer.

 

I thought the same thing. The balefire thing in the World of Dreams was great. I am surprised that he has not seen the other dreamspike around the BT.

 

One of the many instances of humor in BS's writing. I laughed hard. This was one of the funniest books in the series. Perrin's unknown abilities in TAR shamed Egwene...the penultimate AS Dreamwalker. Delicious!

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a few things jain farstrider does not have to be called a wolf to be like a wolf, and that is all it takes to be called wolf in prophecy. rand is not vermin, but he is called the highest of vermin. jain traveled much like a wolf did, he had a very large range, one that even made it all the way to shara. jain had a run in with ba'alzamon, and it broke him. towers of mourning and towers of midnight, the mourning towers were the three in the middle that mat comments on, the midnight towers have been used in two different instances already. egwene sees the towers of midnight and links them to the forsaken as well. so maybe there is a third definition in there also. byar has had a run in with fain never forget that, and that in and of itself is enough to make byar mad with the thought to kill perrin, the forsaken continually try to blame perrin as a shadow spawn of a sorts, and he has almost died twice because of it. the second time perrin needs to be with rand has not come yet, it will be at the meeting with egwene. hopefully mat shows up with moiraine in the end and helps out also but i dont know if that will happen.

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Hopper is dead... I am so sad now :hopper::sad:

 

But the Forging of the hammer... holy shit epic epic epic... This entire book was one of my favorite. It was definatly the most epical out of all of them.

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I keep coming back to the prophesy and that in previous books the prophesy at the end of the book had been fulfilled somewhere in that book.

 

So in thinking about the Broken Wolf, I still feel that the strongest fulfillment of that in this book is Jain. I know that there is not any mention of him being called a wolf that I can think of but consider these things.

 

His spirit was pretty much broken before meeting up with Mat. He was not anything like Jain Farstrider. He was also considered a DF by the Malkieri, and if it was not true, that could have been something that would make him considered broken.

 

And you cannot say that Death has not known him. He was thought to be dead for years. This could make that arguement.

 

And the Finn Towers could be the Towers of Midnight.

 

As to his fall shaking the men and all that, he was Malkieri and they have gathered for the first time in years. I am assuming that when Mat does tell them what happened as he was asked to do, there might be regret and doubt cast upon his DF status, causing them to be fearful and sorrowful and all that.

 

Maybe a bit of a stretch, but it seems to me to be the only plausable explanation from within the book. Itrualde did not fall to the Towers. Nor Perrin or Hopper. So this seems most likely.

 

Bash away! :wink::flamingsword:

 

How is Jain Farstrider a DF? Why would Malkieri consider him a DF? After all, Olver said Jain Farstrider was one of the greatest heroes ever lived and he exposed Cowin Fairheart's treachery and betrayal of Malkier to the Shadow.

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I keep coming back to the prophesy and that in previous books the prophesy at the end of the book had been fulfilled somewhere in that book.

 

So in thinking about the Broken Wolf, I still feel that the strongest fulfillment of that in this book is Jain. I know that there is not any mention of him being called a wolf that I can think of but consider these things.

 

His spirit was pretty much broken before meeting up with Mat. He was not anything like Jain Farstrider. He was also considered a DF by the Malkieri, and if it was not true, that could have been something that would make him considered broken.

 

And you cannot say that Death has not known him. He was thought to be dead for years. This could make that arguement.

 

And the Finn Towers could be the Towers of Midnight.

 

As to his fall shaking the men and all that, he was Malkieri and they have gathered for the first time in years. I am assuming that when Mat does tell them what happened as he was asked to do, there might be regret and doubt cast upon his DF status, causing them to be fearful and sorrowful and all that.

 

Maybe a bit of a stretch, but it seems to me to be the only plausable explanation from within the book. Itrualde did not fall to the Towers. Nor Perrin or Hopper. So this seems most likely.

 

Bash away! :wink::flamingsword:

 

How is Jain Farstrider a DF? Why would Malkieri consider him a DF? After all, Olver said Jain Farstrider was one of the greatest heroes ever lived and he exposed Cowin Fairheart's treachery and betrayal of Malkier to the Shadow.

 

No you might be right, I have not gone back and looked at the earlier books in a while, but I recalled there being a mention that he might have been thought of as a DF. It could be that, as I have read on other threads, that he was tricked/used by Ishy. I need to do a bit more research on this...

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The chapter of Perrin forging the Hammer with the aid of the power was one of the best ever! It makes me want to go and read more about Thor to understand the inspiration and relevance better; it's been ages since I read any Norse mythology.

Fortunately Perrins personality is nothing like Thors. Thor is arrogant, quick to anger and he will take up any challenge. Perrin might be a bit like Thor in battle in that he goes berserk and that he uses a hammer, but normal Perrin is nothing like Thor at all. Thor is a thunderstorm whereas Perrin is slow and deliberate.

 

Yep, I read a bit of Thor lore over the weekend. I agree.

 

It is an example of how Jordan mined the great treasures of mythology but clearly does not go in for allegory or just retelling an old story. His story is his own.

Therefore, the same is doubtless true of the other mythological references found throughout WOT. Rand is not Jesus, although some may wish it so.

(Similarly as with Tolkien having been inspired by the Norse Elder Eddas, he took some of the names found therein and gave them to some of his Dwarves, but told his own story.)

 

Perrin is like an old-time berserker in battle, though in his case "Wolf King," not "Bear Clan." LOL

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So is Perrin's Hammer supposed to be Thorish?

 

Seems like it.

 

Mah'alleinir vs Mjollnir (pronounce mee-yoll-neer)

 

Nobody would understand the connotation of Hopper other than Perrin, so it makes an easy transition through time and legend from "he who soars" to "thing that smashes"

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The Wolf King won't be King of the world, but his grandson will be. Or his granddaughter will be queen of the world.

 

Well, not the World, but much of it.

 

Tenobia is toast. Ditto Davram Bashere. Faile inherits Saldaea.

 

The ultimate heirs of Arafell and Kandor are about to die at Tarwin's Gap. Which will make alternative arrangements for the rule of those countries possible. I don't believe that the King of Sheinar has a living heir, and his wife is dead. I expect the Broken Crown refers to the other Borderlands somehow. All of the Borderlands will be united under Faile and Perrin's rule.

 

Elayne is Queen of Andor and Cairhein. She will have her twins. Only one will be a girl, and marry Perrin's son per their dynastic agreement.

 

The child of Perrin's son and Elayne's daughter will be heir to Saldaea, Arafell, Kandor, Sheinar, Andor, Cairhein, Ghealdon, and the Two Rivers.

 

How's that?

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Perrin has by far the greatest Power wrought weapon ever created. I would like to see Slayer block that bad boy with his hand! A mini-version of Thor's hammer.

 

I speculate that Perrin will save Rand again (according to Min's viewing), in TAR. There Perrin is more than a match for any Forsaken, since the Power has no affect on Perrin, including balefire. I believe Lanfear and Moghdiein have been tasked with trapping Rand.

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I really liked Perrin's arc in this book although I agree with the comments that it was a bit slow earlier on.

 

It was very interesting to see Perrin getting more to grips with the Wolf Dream. In the past Egwene always seemed the more powerful in that world. She (and the other girls) could just think their way to different locations. Perrin always seemed to move the ordinary way, albeit at great speed covering large distances. (So not that normal.) Point is, he never seemed to move himself around just by thought. I thought maybe that was a particular limitation he had, being there through his connection to the wolves, so it was interesting to see that wasn't the case, that he could have that power too. What's more, in his crash course, he seemed to overtake Egwene! That was brilliant to see. In some ways I think it's a shame they didn't stretch his Dream lessons over the previous books, but it was still very interesting to see.

 

It's curious that Slayer didn't show the same level of Dream manipulation in his previous encounter with Perrin. He seemed to just move around in that blurry way rather than doing the environment manipulation stuff he does in this book. On the other hand, he probably thought Perrin would be an easy kill and underestimated him. This time he stepped up his game. (Incidentally I don't think Isam/Luc had anything to do with Dark Hounds as we've never seen them together. That being said, there was a dark prophesy in book 2 which mentioned Luc/Slayer and the dark hounds. I forget the specifics, but I think that's where people see the link. I don't think it means he is linked to them though. The prophesy was just covering a range of things.)

 

I don't think Perrin will necessarily remain more powerful in the Dream than Egwene. She learns quickly, and if anything her confrontation with him led to her rethinking her tactics and besting Mesaana.* (I'm not sure I quite buy Mesaana's complete break down though, but there you go.) I think Perrin will always have the advantage where tracking is concerned what with that special 'nose power' he has. Mind you, Egwene would probably go about it another way using hope to point her way.

 

Forging, the hammer- I agree that was a great scene. It's also more than just the average power forged weapon like the swords Rand and Lan own. True the power didn't seem to do much more than burn shaddow spawn, but I wouldn't be surprised if that ability would increase when Perrin becomes more used to the weapon. As for those who complain about how heavy it was in one hand, this kind of weapon is a two hand thing at best (although it might lighten when used, as others have said. I don't remember that being mentioned in the book though).

 

Even if we don't see the weapon manifest more power, the main point of the hammer and it's forging is what it represents. It is an icon of the fact Perrin has accepted his fate as a leader and gained balance within himself. That being said, considering the amount of power used by the Ashaman and Wise Ones in their channelling, I think it must have a lot of potential in raw power too. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a ter'angreal as well as being a power wrought weapon. In fact I'm sure it is. That burning power had to come from somewhere after all, so I'm thinking the One Power. (The only non- OP weapon we've seen with special powers is Fain's dagger, but we know the source of that. Since OP was used to make the hammer, I'm thinking it's using the power too.) I'm sure one talented Ashaman would be enough to forge ordinary power wrought weapons like the special 'edge-keeping' swords.

 

*Incidentally, if anyone is wondering why Egwene was able to beat the Adam and Moghedien, who had much more experience in the Dream than Egwene could not, it's down very much to personality. Moghedien is a coward at heart. She feared the Adam, and thus it had power over her. One on one, I think she would still have more power in the Dream than Egwene, but Egwene has the advantage where guts and confidence are concerned. Confidence and how you see yourself go a long way in the Dream.

Edited by Mardragon
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I keep coming back to the prophesy and that in previous books the prophesy at the end of the book had been fulfilled somewhere in that book.

 

So in thinking about the Broken Wolf, I still feel that the strongest fulfillment of that in this book is Jain. I know that there is not any mention of him being called a wolf that I can think of but consider these things.

 

His spirit was pretty much broken before meeting up with Mat. He was not anything like Jain Farstrider. He was also considered a DF by the Malkieri, and if it was not true, that could have been something that would make him considered broken.

 

And you cannot say that Death has not known him. He was thought to be dead for years. This could make that arguement.

 

And the Finn Towers could be the Towers of Midnight.

 

As to his fall shaking the men and all that, he was Malkieri and they have gathered for the first time in years. I am assuming that when Mat does tell them what happened as he was asked to do, there might be regret and doubt cast upon his DF status, causing them to be fearful and sorrowful and all that.

 

Maybe a bit of a stretch, but it seems to me to be the only plausable explanation from within the book. Itrualde did not fall to the Towers. Nor Perrin or Hopper. So this seems most likely.

 

Bash away! :wink::flamingsword:

 

How is Jain Farstrider a DF? Why would Malkieri consider him a DF? After all, Olver said Jain Farstrider was one of the greatest heroes ever lived and he exposed Cowin Fairheart's treachery and betrayal of Malkier to the Shadow.

 

The idea he is a darkfriend came from one of the early Ba'alzamon dream scenes that Rand, Mat, and Perrin shared in TEoTW. Ba'alzamon/Ishy says that he broke Jain and sent him back to the Ogier or something like that, and it is commonly accepted that it was Jain that gave the Ogier the thing about the "DO will blind the Eye of the world" that Loial tells Moir and co about in Cam in same book. It is assumed that Ishy did more to him and used him for other evil doings than just this, and Jain himself said that he has been "used, Mat, one too many times." Since we don't know what all Ishy did to him and what he did as a result, it could be possible that some of the history that we don't know about is tied to him.

 

As far as Malkier goes, he did not warn of Cowin's treachery, he captured Fairheart and brought him back to justice. And the way it is phrase during Agelmar's description indicates that even after Fairheart had pulled back the troops from the borders and tried to take the Seven Towers, that he still held a place "in the heart's of the people, second only to Al'Akir and Lain." If that many people still loved and supported Fairheart they might well consider the person that captured and brought him before Al'Akir to be a DF. But I'm still leaning on whatever it was Ishy had him doing.

 

 

As for Perrin ... Loved the Forging scene. Mah'alleinir! Awesome. definitely has special properties way beyond that of the normal OP-forged weapons we have seen. The whole sizzling of shadow spawn thing personally I think of electrical burns when reading it, not fire. But since I was already thinking of Mjoellnir when reading it, maybe I was predisposed toward that line of thought. I consider it much more of a ter'angreal than a OP weapon. Especially since BS made a point of saying in book that Neald still could not remember what he had done that night but that Neald and Grady had managed to figure out enough of what was done to start making regular OP weapons. I would love to see a scene where Shadar Haran steps out of shadow behind Rand, about to plunge a Thakandar wrought Fade-blade in Rand's back. When suddenly Perrin sees it from 20 paces away and hurls Mah'alleinir at the Super-Fade, striking SH square in the back of the neck with the sound of a clap of thunder and SH crumples as Mah'alleinir flies back to Perrin's still out-stretched hand, surprising him as much as anyone else.

 

I am glad that Perrin's finally grown comfortable with himself. He is a very likable character now. I loved his interaction with Elayne. 2 books ago he would have bungled that entire interview and truly needed Faile to handle it for him. But now, Faile was there to handle the specifics, but Perrin kept Elayne off guard the entire conversation. Loved it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited to correct punctuation

Edited by Ishadar
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I am a little confused about something. Are Dark Prophecies real and legitimate prophecies or are they... not? Like when I first read TGH and read the dark prophecy I thought they just did it to scare people. Are they false or true prophecies?

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And I agree with everybody above, Perrin was amazing this book. I am one of the few that liked Perrin in CoT and KoD, I have found him interesting to read. The Forging scene was incredible one of my favorites in the series. His interactions with Elayne showed just how far he has come. Did he start calling himself the Wolf King yet?

 

And his shenanigans with Slayer were awesome. I was sad when Slayer killed the entire wolf pack though.. Oak Dancer and Hopper :hopper: Hopper was the coolest. I am glad we got to see Slayer again I missed him he is an awesome villain. His mastery over T'A'R was pretty intense. Like the first fight when he throws Perrin into the lake and then moves the water apart? awesomness.

 

Also loved the entire Tar Valon sequence.

 

Perrin is BACK!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :perrin:

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One good thing that came about is we now know how Rand stoped Ishy's balefire in tDR.

 

I really enjoyed Perrin in this book, but then unlike some/most readers I didn't mind his povs in the earlier books. And now I will spend the following year or more trying to crack who the hell is the Broken Wolf. If Perrin dose end up dying in aMoL, I would congragulate RJ on killing a character that readers have such emotional attachment to...if he had decided to kill all three of the ta'veren I would have burnt the book though (good thing Mat has his get out of jail for free card).

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