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About the mindtrap theory... how would there be so many of them available? Seems rather odd. And if the Dark had numbers of skilled *'angreal creators surely they would be better employed creating sa'angreal or strategic tools such as dreamspikes. Particularly as 13x13 would be a viable alternative.

Edited by 1eejit

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About the mindtrap theory... how would there be so many of them available? Seems rather odd. And if the Dark had numbers of skilled *'angreal creators surely they would be better employed creating sa'angreal or strategic tools such as dreamspikes. Particularly as 13x13 would be a viable alternative.

 

Moridin seems to have hundreds of ter'angreal in his little fortress, he had two dreamspikes, which even for Ter'angreal were purportedly very rare in AoL, so it is not unreasonable for there to be 2 cor'survra found.

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About the mindtrap theory... how would there be so many of them available? Seems rather odd. And if the Dark had numbers of skilled *'angreal creators surely they would be better employed creating sa'angreal or strategic tools such as dreamspikes. Particularly as 13x13 would be a viable alternative.

 

Moridin seems to have hundreds of ter'angreal in his little fortress, he had two dreamspikes, which even for Ter'angreal were purportedly very rare in AoL, so it is not unreasonable for there to be 2 cor'survra found.

We know there are 2 cour'savra. The BT mindtraps theory postulates 100s more --- there are nearly 1,000 Ashaman, 100-odd AS to trap.

Plus logistics to get all the above to Shayol Ghul might be difficult.

GLoD would be pulling a train doing a mindtrap a minute and so would the chaps controlling the mindtraps.

It's either some bizarre compulsion or its 13x13.

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About the mindtrap theory... how would there be so many of them available? Seems rather odd. And if the Dark had numbers of skilled *'angreal creators surely they would be better employed creating sa'angreal or strategic tools such as dreamspikes. Particularly as 13x13 would be a viable alternative.

 

Moridin seems to have hundreds of ter'angreal in his little fortress, he had two dreamspikes, which even for Ter'angreal were purportedly very rare in AoL, so it is not unreasonable for there to be 2 cor'survra found.

We know there are 2 cour'savra. The BT mindtraps theory postulates 100s more --- there are nearly 1,000 Ashaman, 100-odd AS to trap.

Plus logistics to get all the above to Shayol Ghul might be difficult.

GLoD would be pulling a train doing a mindtrap a minute and so would the chaps controlling the mindtraps.

It's either some bizarre compulsion or its 13x13.

 

ohhh, the whole BT people mindtrapped, thats absurd. it would be way too much effort and as said, i doubt there would be 100's of them round. It would be much much easier and efficiant to 13x13 or compulse.

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Well, we've speculated about channelers being turned to the shadow for a long time now...looks like we know where a lot of that is going down.

 

 

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

 

I agree it didn't occur to me with the Tarna scene but the next BT scene I knew that the 13x13 had happened. Considering how many things that the fandom got right with this book I think we can call this a very safe bet. I'm very saddened that the BT is basically 100% Dreadlord haven now.

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Yeah, that clearly stinks of 13*13 in there. That's probably Rand/Lews Therin's biggest mistake in the whole series, to have let the Black Tower, and Taim, walk free for such a long time.

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It would be crazy if Taim was somehow the person that Moiraine saw in Finnland, and she recognizes him... somehow? Moridin disguised as Taim for who knows why? (idle thoughts)

 

...

 

Dang it, if RJ hadn't specifically said it was untrue, I'd be almost sure Demandred was posing as Taim. I just hope we don't find out who the guy is in a disappointing or lame way.

The person Moiraine saw was Slayer. We already know that he's capable of taking refuge in there, from The Shadow Rising when Perrin chases him there. Slayer works directly for Moridin at this point, and probably ordered him to kill Lanfear so that the Dark One could reincarnate her without any need for troublesome bargaining. And Taim really IS Moridin.

 

As for the Asha'man allied with Taim suddenly gaining in strength, the most logical explanation is the use of a vacuole. When Moghedien is trapped inside one, she notes that the flow of time is different inside them. Her prison in particular allowed time to flow much more rapidly inside than outside. Since we know that Moridin has access to this particular vacuole, and also that he supplied the Black Tower with the dreamspike (which just happened to go online the same day Taim first ordered the walls to be manned - even if you don't believe that Taim is Moridin, you'd have to admit that they're in cahoots at this point), then it stands to reason that he would provide it for the Black Tower's use. So Taim's dogs are getting extra training sessions. They go in, spend a week or so training, and come out to find only a day has passed. A surefire way to increase your strength faster than your enemy's followers.

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It would be crazy if Taim was somehow the person that Moiraine saw in Finnland, and she recognizes him... somehow? Moridin disguised as Taim for who knows why? (idle thoughts)

 

...

 

Dang it, if RJ hadn't specifically said it was untrue, I'd be almost sure Demandred was posing as Taim. I just hope we don't find out who the guy is in a disappointing or lame way.

The person Moiraine saw was Slayer. We already know that he's capable of taking refuge in there, from The Shadow Rising when Perrin chases him there. Slayer works directly for Moridin at this point, and probably ordered him to kill Lanfear so that the Dark One could reincarnate her without any need for troublesome bargaining. And Taim really IS Moridin.

 

As for the Asha'man allied with Taim suddenly gaining in strength, the most logical explanation is the use of a vacuole. When Moghedien is trapped inside one, she notes that the flow of time is different inside them. Her prison in particular allowed time to flow much more rapidly inside than outside. Since we know that Moridin has access to this particular vacuole, and also that he supplied the Black Tower with the dreamspike (which just happened to go online the same day Taim first ordered the walls to be manned - even if you don't believe that Taim is Moridin, you'd have to admit that they're in cahoots at this point), then it stands to reason that he would provide it for the Black Tower's use. So Taim's dogs are getting extra training sessions. They go in, spend a week or so training, and come out to find only a day has passed. A surefire way to increase your strength faster than your enemy's followers.

 

Taim is Taim. :)

We don't see Slayer take refuge in ToG in TSR. He tries to con Perrin into thinking he took refuge there. He reaches ToG and disappears. Could as well just have stepped out of TAR.

That said the person who went into ToG to pick up Lanfear could be either Moridin or Slayer.

Moridin is likelier for several reasons - whoever it was, smashed the Door in Tear and Slayer doesn't have the OP strength to do that

Also Finnland proper can't be reached from TAR, which would negate Slayers special abilities

Third Moraine didn't say the guy looked like either Rand (Luc) or Lan (Isam).

Lanfear may have died in Finnland rather than being killed by the Shadow - the Finns twist truth like AS, they don't seem to lie and they told Moiraine Lanfear had died.

A more likely explanation than vacuoles is male ang'real. We know Moridin has many objects of OP.

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ohhh, the whole BT people mindtrapped, thats absurd. it would be way too much effort and as said, i doubt there would be 100's of them round. It would be much much easier and efficiant to 13x13 or compulse.

 

No, I mentioned that more than a few people mindtrapped would be absurd in my post. My point was that the particular symptoms we saw in Mezar and Tarna didn't match what we know of Taim cronies. The Taim cronies are pricks but, as far as we've seen, they're not noticably vacant/soulless like Tarna and Mezar. People are conflating Taim followers with Taim DFs: his personal shock troops were probably DFs to begin with, whereas the rest are just people swept up in the nasty BT culture. Only Taim's bigwigs (like the guy who humiliated Androl) are exceedingly cruel. The mindtrapped victims are also very important: Mezar was going to deliver important news to the Logain faction and Tarna was pushing the Aes Sedai to leave. Why is it so important that the Aes Sedai stay? Because Taim is using them as an excuse to keep the other Aes Sedai out: "Tower Aes Aedai get first pick" according to his bargain.

 

Androl mentions they've lost a dozen people to the Taim faction in the last weeks, but the simplest explanation is a human reaction to Logain's permanent disappearance and promises of power/knowledge: the chapters mention that all of the hardy Two Rivers guys are still loyal, so the deserters are just the fence-sitters. Taim also refuses to raise anybody from the Logain faction. His special lessons imply protection from the Aes Sedai who are only allowed to bond Soldier and Dedicated.

 

Common sense:

If you stop and think about it, mass conversion of any variety is absurd and unnecessary; did the Nazis need any magic to get normal people to help? No, it just takes propaganda and perverse military-rule--things the BT has in abundance. Information is a powerful tool, and Taim controls basically all of it with his DF core in the leadership positions. But this isn't enough to convince outsiders like Tarna or rebels like Mezar, so they needed something like a mindtrap or the 13x13. Nobody can really comment on 13x13 due to lack of information, but two or three mindtraps seem plausible in every respect.

 

 

@Lironah's vacuole theory: Vacuoles are the farthest thing from safe; Moridin mentions they pop/close pretty often. Also, Taim does the training for sure, as I doubt Moridin or even Demandred would waste their time on training a bunch of weak hicks. And I doubt Taim knows anything about vacuoles... More likely the "fast learners" are using angreal to prolong their exposure to saidin. Now that the taint is gone, they don't have to worry about it accelerating madness, so it makes sense that they would have started recently.

Edited by miyori

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miyori's post sums it up quite nicely. It could still be the 13x13 trick, but we have first hand knowledge from Moghedion that mindtraps were used to coerce and control channellers in the War of Power.

 

Androl mentions they've lost a dozen people to the Taim faction in the last weeks, but the simplest explanation is a human reaction to Logain's permanent disappearance and promises of power/knowledge: the chapters mention that all of the hardy Two Rivers guys are still loyal, so the deserters are just the fence-sitters. Taim also refuses to raise anybody from the Logain faction. His special lessons imply protection from the Aes Sedai who are only allowed to bond Soldier and Dedicated.

 

We've seen this sort of manipulation before, when Egwene used the threat of Talmane's army of Dragonsworn to drive people to join her cause.

 

-- dwn

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miyori's post sums it up quite nicely. It could still be the 13x13 trick, but we have first hand knowledge from Moghedion that mindtraps were used to coerce and control channellers in the War of Power.

 

Androl mentions they've lost a dozen people to the Taim faction in the last weeks, but the simplest explanation is a human reaction to Logain's permanent disappearance and promises of power/knowledge: the chapters mention that all of the hardy Two Rivers guys are still loyal, so the deserters are just the fence-sitters. Taim also refuses to raise anybody from the Logain faction. His special lessons imply protection from the Aes Sedai who are only allowed to bond Soldier and Dedicated.

 

We've seen this sort of manipulation before, when Egwene used the threat of Talmane's army of Dragonsworn to drive people to join her cause.

 

-- dwn

 

I don't think that's how Mindtraps work, they don't change your persona they just force you to someone else's will. I don't think you'd see that kind of "lifeless and cold" look in a mindtrapped person.

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Has anyone considered if the size of the dome created by the dreamspike can be adjusted? It would be kind of annoying if you wanted to use it to stop gateways inside a smaller area, while the dome is still 4 leagues wide. 4 leagues would probably be the maximum in that case, since Slayer would want to stop Perrins channelers from gatewaying inside as large an area as possible.

Actually, it would be 8 leagues wide.

 

Perrin was holding the spike. The spike is at the center of the dome. We assume the the dome is a circle. So, if the edge of the dome was 4 leagues from Perrin, that makes it 4 leagues from the center. That would make the entire dome, from one side to the other, 8 leagues wide

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miyori's post sums it up quite nicely. It could still be the 13x13 trick, but we have first hand knowledge from Moghedion that mindtraps were used to coerce and control channellers in the War of Power.

 

Androl mentions they've lost a dozen people to the Taim faction in the last weeks, but the simplest explanation is a human reaction to Logain's permanent disappearance and promises of power/knowledge: the chapters mention that all of the hardy Two Rivers guys are still loyal, so the deserters are just the fence-sitters. Taim also refuses to raise anybody from the Logain faction. His special lessons imply protection from the Aes Sedai who are only allowed to bond Soldier and Dedicated.

 

We've seen this sort of manipulation before, when Egwene used the threat of Talmane's army of Dragonsworn to drive people to join her cause.

 

-- dwn

 

I don't think that's how Mindtraps work, they don't change your persona they just force you to someone else's will. I don't think you'd see that kind of "lifeless and cold" look in a mindtrapped person.

 

From Moghedion's POV in ACoS:

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpess within an automation that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra.

 

-- ACoS, Mindtrap, p. 419

 

That description fits well with the dead-eyed lifelessness we are shown Tarna and Mezar. Their souls have been separated from their bodies/minds. Granted, it could still be the 13x13 trick at play here, yet RJ described it as heightening the darker parts of a personality while suppressing the good, which doesn't match that effect nearly so well.

 

-- dwn

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The person Moiraine saw was Slayer. We already know that he's capable of taking refuge in there, from The Shadow Rising when Perrin chases him there.

RJ said that it's impossible to enter from Tel'aran'rhiod. Slayer was a red herring.

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I think that the red-veiled men were actually the Finns. Both are described as having pointy teeth. It never crossed my mind that they might be the male Aiel channelers. Once they took off their veils I thought off the Finns straight away.

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I think that the red-veiled men were actually the Finns. Both are described as having pointy teeth. It never crossed my mind that they might be the male Aiel channelers. Once they took off their veils I thought off the Finns straight away.

 

MMM, thats a new one. I doubt it. Finns are distinct. They may have human stature etc. but they look nothing like humans really, at least, one would know them different from humans. Now I may be forgetting, but the finns teeth are naturally pointy, but the red-veil's teeth are said to look like they have been filed to points. A big difference. Without going into actually WHO they are (I am male aiel channlers side) they seem to be either 13x13 or completely mad. Wandering round in the Blight will do that to you, sharpening teeth doesnt really sound that big a deal.

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Why in the world would they file their teeth anyway? I know the natural conclusion is these are male Aiel channelers turned forcibly to the Shadow because it makes sense and there's decent circumstantial evidence to suggest it but I expect better of my new age Aiel Dreadlords. I mean come on, they've got to dress and act better than that! There's an IMAGE to maintain here, people . . . COMMON Shadowspawn like Trollocs file their teeth but these guys should be BETTER than that. And why would you pull a knife to kill when you should either be biting them with those teeth you've spent so much time working on or just blasting them with saidin?

 

Dennis

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From Moghedion's POV in ACoS:

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpess within an automation that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra.

 

-- ACoS, Mindtrap, p. 419

 

That description fits well with the dead-eyed lifelessness we are shown Tarna and Mezar. Their souls have been separated from their bodies/minds. Granted, it could still be the 13x13 trick at play here, yet RJ described it as heightening the darker parts of a personality while suppressing the good, which doesn't match that effect nearly so well.

 

-- dwn

 

I don't really get the impression that what we are seeing in the BT are people who have become "puppeted" by mindtraps; they still speak as themselves, even if they act somewhat horrifically. It seems far more likely that we are finally seeing the 13x13 trick used; I find it implausible that Mr. Jordan would mention such a powerful and vile magical ability and then never use it once in the series.

 

Plus, that would imply that Taim, or whoever holds the mindtraps, is going to be acting and thinking, and most crucially speaking, for dozens of individuals at once. This seems a daunting task, to put it lightly.

Edited by TheTuninator

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hmmm...

 

Lets think for a second that when Rand said that he is the only Male Aes Sedai to have passed testing, does this imply that there are/could be people of Male aes Sedai Potential that haven't gone testing.... If so...

 

This puts an entirely different spin on the prophecy of the BT being Wrought in Blood and Aes Sedai shall walk it's ground (rough mish mashed quote) Aes Sedai doesn't exclude gender. what if when Rand sent message of him claiming himself an aes Sedai and that the Men are not weapons but people that Logain sets up a rival SYSTEM ranking people Aes Sedai...

 

That would put Logains group walking over the Ruins of the BT ;)

 

Also the dude who was familiar with Gateways in the BT (arm guard maker guy) could make the gateway weave wether he was in the dome or not, it's the DESTINATION that counts, you can open a gateway inside the dome, just not outside it.

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hmmm...

 

Lets think for a second that when Rand said that he is the only Male Aes Sedai to have passed testing, does this imply that there are/could be people of Male aes Sedai Potential that haven't gone testing.... If so...

 

This puts an entirely different spin on the prophecy of the BT being Wrought in Blood and Aes Sedai shall walk it's ground (rough mish mashed quote) Aes Sedai doesn't exclude gender. what if when Rand sent message of him claiming himself an aes Sedai and that the Men are not weapons but people that Logain sets up a rival SYSTEM ranking people Aes Sedai...

 

That would put Logains group walking over the Ruins of the BT ;)

 

Also the dude who was familiar with Gateways in the BT (arm guard maker guy) could make the gateway weave wether he was in the dome or not, it's the DESTINATION that counts, you can open a gateway inside the dome, just not outside it.

No you can't - Perrin asked Grady and Neald to check specifically for that and discovered they couldn't.

The rules are different in TAR - there you can shift inside the dome.

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I have a feeling Perrin will have a part in helping the channellers get in and out of the BT he did say he needed to investigate why Grady couldn't get a gateway to open there.

It's a shame Perrin destroyed the Dreamspike instead of getting it to Egwene, I think it was originally designed in the War of Shadows to protect a Fortress during a seige from unwanted Dreadlords opening Gateways into your midst. In fact Im sure I read that somewhere before. The Guardians have the same function, but I'm sure Rand's comment to the Borderlanders meant it fails to stop the True Power.

That's basically how Taim is getting in and out of the BT after Dreamspike is activated he is using the TP.

Naeff who Nynaeve healed of his madness is also on his way to the BT in disguise after Rand told him to try and contact Logain.

Logain I think may be in hiding covertly trying to get proof of what's going on to Rand.

 

You can get into and out of a dream spiked area with the one power. You do not need to use the true power. It was made clear that you can still use gateways if you have permission(coded secret way of weaving perhaps).

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miyori's post sums it up quite nicely. It could still be the 13x13 trick, but we have first hand knowledge from Moghedion that mindtraps were used to coerce and control channellers in the War of Power.

 

Androl mentions they've lost a dozen people to the Taim faction in the last weeks, but the simplest explanation is a human reaction to Logain's permanent disappearance and promises of power/knowledge: the chapters mention that all of the hardy Two Rivers guys are still loyal, so the deserters are just the fence-sitters. Taim also refuses to raise anybody from the Logain faction. His special lessons imply protection from the Aes Sedai who are only allowed to bond Soldier and Dedicated.

 

We've seen this sort of manipulation before, when Egwene used the threat of Talmane's army of Dragonsworn to drive people to join her cause.

 

-- dwn

 

I don't think that's how Mindtraps work, they don't change your persona they just force you to someone else's will. I don't think you'd see that kind of "lifeless and cold" look in a mindtrapped person.

 

From Moghedion's POV in ACoS:

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpess within an automation that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra.

 

-- ACoS, Mindtrap, p. 419

 

That description fits well with the dead-eyed lifelessness we are shown Tarna and Mezar. Their souls have been separated from their bodies/minds. Granted, it could still be the 13x13 trick at play here, yet RJ described it as heightening the darker parts of a personality while suppressing the good, which doesn't match that effect nearly so well.

 

-- dwn

 

Yet that's not at all how Cydane has been acting and she's been Mindtrapped since she showed up.

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miyori's post sums it up quite nicely. It could still be the 13x13 trick, but we have first hand knowledge from Moghedion that mindtraps were used to coerce and control channellers in the War of Power.

 

Androl mentions they've lost a dozen people to the Taim faction in the last weeks, but the simplest explanation is a human reaction to Logain's permanent disappearance and promises of power/knowledge: the chapters mention that all of the hardy Two Rivers guys are still loyal, so the deserters are just the fence-sitters. Taim also refuses to raise anybody from the Logain faction. His special lessons imply protection from the Aes Sedai who are only allowed to bond Soldier and Dedicated.

 

We've seen this sort of manipulation before, when Egwene used the threat of Talmane's army of Dragonsworn to drive people to join her cause.

 

-- dwn

 

I don't think that's how Mindtraps work, they don't change your persona they just force you to someone else's will. I don't think you'd see that kind of "lifeless and cold" look in a mindtrapped person.

 

From Moghedion's POV in ACoS:

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpess within an automation that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra.

 

-- ACoS, Mindtrap, p. 419

 

That description fits well with the dead-eyed lifelessness we are shown Tarna and Mezar. Their souls have been separated from their bodies/minds. Granted, it could still be the 13x13 trick at play here, yet RJ described it as heightening the darker parts of a personality while suppressing the good, which doesn't match that effect nearly so well.

 

-- dwn

 

Mindtraps pose far more problems logistically than 13x13. Provision of the mindtrap ter'angreal in sufficient quantities (we're talking many dozens if not numbers in the hundreds) plus trips to/from SG for the process to occur for each victim.

With 13x13 you just need the relevant channelers and fades handy.

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I agree it's a much simpler explanation of what's been happening and a much more efficient use as well. What's more as Brandon has illustrated and talked about on his Podcast about Literary promises. Many in the fandom have felt that this 13x13 trick has been such a promise, well it looks like we've found it.

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miyori's post sums it up quite nicely. It could still be the 13x13 trick, but we have first hand knowledge from Moghedion that mindtraps were used to coerce and control channellers in the War of Power.

 

Androl mentions they've lost a dozen people to the Taim faction in the last weeks, but the simplest explanation is a human reaction to Logain's permanent disappearance and promises of power/knowledge: the chapters mention that all of the hardy Two Rivers guys are still loyal, so the deserters are just the fence-sitters. Taim also refuses to raise anybody from the Logain faction. His special lessons imply protection from the Aes Sedai who are only allowed to bond Soldier and Dedicated.

 

We've seen this sort of manipulation before, when Egwene used the threat of Talmane's army of Dragonsworn to drive people to join her cause.

 

-- dwn

 

I don't think that's how Mindtraps work, they don't change your persona they just force you to someone else's will. I don't think you'd see that kind of "lifeless and cold" look in a mindtrapped person.

 

From Moghedion's POV in ACoS:

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpess within an automation that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra.

 

-- ACoS, Mindtrap, p. 419

 

That description fits well with the dead-eyed lifelessness we are shown Tarna and Mezar. Their souls have been separated from their bodies/minds. Granted, it could still be the 13x13 trick at play here, yet RJ described it as heightening the darker parts of a personality while suppressing the good, which doesn't match that effect nearly so well.

 

-- dwn

 

Yet that's not at all how Cydane has been acting and she's been Mindtrapped since she showed up.

 

Cyndane's mindtrap hasn't been broken. She and Moghedion are only in the first stage of the mindtrap's effects. The second is apparently triggered when the mindtrap is broken and severs the victims soul from his/her body.

 

As for the logistics of mindtrapping vs. the 13x13 trick...

 

Some things could only be done here, some only to those who could channel, and she had brought a number of men and women for this very purpose.

 

-- ACoS, Mindtrap, p. 415

 

So during the War of Power, mindtrapping was apparently a fairly common tool the Shadow used to turn men and women. We have never seen the 13x13 trick in action, but it's apparently not something that can be pulled off at a moment's notice, else everyone in the BT would have been quickly turned. Perhaps it's simply exhausting, and others have speculated that the 13 myrddraal die in the process.

 

The main problem I have with the 13x13 trick in this case is the cold and lifeless description we have of Tarna and Mezar, which just doesn't seem to fit the effect that RJ described. I've dug around on Theoryland and 13th Depository for that quote but can't find it (it's awfully hard to navigate those sites, BTW). Here's one relevant quote, but I'd really like to find the one describing the personality twisting.

 

RJ: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

 

-- dwn

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