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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Discuss Aviendha's Arc


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I have a feeling the Seachan are going to sue for peace once they travel back to Seachan and realize how bad it is there. A truce for the last battle and time to get back old lands.

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Also, where are the Male Aiel Channelers? I may have skimmed over it, but the Aiel produce a river of chicks who can channel. It stands to reason that there would be a corresponding river of Male channlers, who are also beasts in unarmed combat. With their martial training, they would make even better channlers, because they already have the focus and concentration skills to pick up channeling.

Just about all the male channelers are now 13x13 turned Dreadlords. As poor Barriga found out. We haven't heard of any male aiel channeling since Rand cleansed the taint.

 

 

Also, for people wondering where all the wise one's were, I believe its indicated that they have all been either leashed or killed.

Edited by The Dirty Landry
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It all comes back to the Ta'Veren. If Mat, Rand, and Perrin survive the LB, the world changes. They will never allow the Seanchan to chain people as slaves, Channelers or non-channelers. Especially with them being on the doorstep of the Two Rivers.

 

 

Perrin and Rand would never allow the chaining of people. With them, they have the strength to defeat the Seanchan, lead the world to peace, and help the Aiel rediscover the WOL as the centuries go by.

 

Save the Ta'veren, save the future.

 

Perrin already allowed the Seanchan to take the Shaido Wise One channelers.

Edited by Caveatar
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It's implied in the viewing Tuon almost made peace with the Aiel and then died. As long as she has Mat, I think she'll be okay, and from seeing how Mat and the King of Altra behave seems to be making her think. Plus, I have a feeling if she ends up channeling, which should happen (but is their time???) then A. she'll literally be the Empiroress who lives forever (or at least 500+ years) and B. bond mat with a Warder Bond. Mat's reaction when Moraine mentioned the bond, not to mention his repeated comments that warders are idiots, would make that fairly ironic

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It's implied in the viewing Tuon almost made peace with the Aiel and then died. As long as she has Mat, I think she'll be okay, and from seeing how Mat and the King of Altra behave seems to be making her think. Plus, I have a feeling if she ends up channeling, which should happen (but is their time???) then A. she'll literally be the Empiroress who lives forever (or at least 500+ years) and B. bond mat with a Warder Bond. Mat's reaction when Moraine mentioned the bond, not to mention his repeated comments that warders are idiots, would make that fairly ironic

 

Yeah, I really dont see thhat future happening. There has been toooooo much emphasis on the sul'dam being able to channel which shoudl bring down the Seanchan a'dam empire. Plus, there is Egwene's dream of Seanchan woman helping her and handing her the a'dam.

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Also, where are the Male Aiel Channelers? I may have skimmed over it, but the Aiel produce a river of chicks who can channel. It stands to reason that there would be a corresponding river of Male channlers, who are also beasts in unarmed combat. With their martial training, they would make even better channlers, because they already have the focus and concentration skills to pick up channeling.

Just about all the male channelers are now 13x13 turned Dreadlords. As poor Barriga found out. We haven't heard of any male aiel channeling since Rand cleansed the taint.

 

 

Also, for people wondering where all the wise one's were, I believe its indicated that they have all been either leashed or killed.

Unless I'm missing something, I think the male version of channelers for the Aiel are called Dragon Blooded. Or maybe just his descendants.

 

I don't really like this future mumble-jumble. It reveals too much. It's like a giant spoiler.

 

We now know that the Black Tower will survive. The White Tower will survive. Hell, didn't the book leave off while Caemlyn was burning and the Band going to save the dragons/city? Well, I guess we know what'll happen next!

 

I am somewhat interested. The Seanchan will get the dragons sooner or later so I wonder what these "Andoran war machines" are.

 

But other than that, I feel unsatisfied. And cheated. For some bloody reason.

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from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

 

As I see it the Aiel has every right to take back the ones who where captured, especially when we know what the standing of wise ones is in there culture. Even clans at war will not interfer with the other clans wise ones. Also how do we know that it only is the shaido wise ones beeing kept? With travelling we know they will make attacks and raids and would they really let all the non channelers go? Sure they might not be able to retake the first who leaves after 1 year and 1 day. But how long would it take for them to figure it out and do everything they can to stop the rest. Once a da'covale always a da'covale.

 

 

Also, where are the Male Aiel Channelers? I may have skimmed over it, but the Aiel produce a river of chicks who can channel. It stands to reason that there would be a corresponding river of Male channlers, who are also beasts in unarmed combat. With their martial training, they would make even better channlers, because they already have the focus and concentration skills to pick up channeling.

Just about all the male channelers are now 13x13 turned Dreadlords. As poor Barriga found out. We haven't heard of any male aiel channeling since Rand cleansed the taint.

 

 

Also, for people wondering where all the wise one's were, I believe its indicated that they have all been either leashed or killed.

Unless I'm missing something, I think the male version of channelers for the Aiel are called Dragon Blooded. Or maybe just his descendants.

 

I don't really like this future mumble-jumble. It reveals too much. It's like a giant spoiler.

 

We now know that the Black Tower will survive. The White Tower will survive. Hell, didn't the book leave off while Caemlyn was burning and the Band going to save the dragons/city? Well, I guess we know what'll happen next!

 

I am somewhat interested. The Seanchan will get the dragons sooner or later so I wonder what these "Andoran war machines" are.

 

But other than that, I feel unsatisfied. And cheated. For some bloody reason.

 

I can't really see what you feel this spoils. The Black Tower can still be destroyed and then rebuilt at a new place. The With Tower survivng doesn't feel weird, the Seanchan might attack while all the armies are still there, or they might attack when a lot of the Aes Sedai is away and then lose the tower to a counter attack. Not to mention the fact that the Aes Sedai know the Seanchan have traveling and they know that every woman who can channel is a prize worth going for. Conserning Caemlyn we don't know how much of the city will be destroyed, and even if the shadow takes over it completly it will probably be retaken and rebuilt. After all the scene where we see caemlyn is probably around 50 years from now.

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I don't really like this future mumble-jumble. It reveals too much. It's like a giant spoiler.

 

We now know that the Black Tower will survive. The White Tower will survive. Hell, didn't the book leave off while Caemlyn was burning and the Band going to save the dragons/city? Well, I guess we know what'll happen next!

 

I am somewhat interested. The Seanchan will get the dragons sooner or later so I wonder what these "Andoran war machines" are.

 

But other than that, I feel unsatisfied. And cheated. For some bloody reason.

It's highly doubtful that this will happen now that Aviendha has seen it. One incredibly important person in the pattern doing something she'd never thought of otherwise will have profound effects on the most crucial days of an Age, and the butterfly effect from those actions will be incredibly widespread. It's been foreshadowed that the revelations of sul'dam being able to channel will severely cripple the Seanchan military. That certainly didn't happen in this future. The prophecies of the Dragon indicate that he will bind the Nine Moons to serve him. That didn't happen either. It would seem that this future is leading to the Dark One winning in the end if prophecy turns out wrong, and I just don't think that will happen after all this time.

 

I don't think these chapters really give away or spoil much at all, other than perhaps that Avi will have quadruplets, which was one of Min's viewings anyway.

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Beautifully written scene, my favorite of the book, and one of the best of the series. I'd be shocked if that wasn't almost entirely done by RJ.

 

But of course it's not going to happen. Right after Aviendha sees the first vision and before she re-enters, she thinks, "...Those columns had shown the Aiel what they needed to know about themselves." [Emphasis RJ's.] Aviendha didn't need to know about that future unless she was going to do something to stop it, and that something is, at the least, telling her people not to **** with the Seanchan.

 

As others have pointed out, I did find it odd that none of the "Old Guard" was around to put a stop to the nonsense as soon as it started. There was obviously still channeling after TG, so there aren't any concerns about channelers getting their lives cut short, and if Rand had kids, Aviendha at least survived TG. That would kind of suck if you made it through hordes of Shadowspawn and facing the Dark One himself, and then died from falling off a horse two weeks later.

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I don't really like this future mumble-jumble. It reveals too much. It's like a giant spoiler.

 

We now know that the Black Tower will survive. The White Tower will survive. Hell, didn't the book leave off while Caemlyn was burning and the Band going to save the dragons/city? Well, I guess we know what'll happen next!

 

I am somewhat interested. The Seanchan will get the dragons sooner or later so I wonder what these "Andoran war machines" are.

 

But other than that, I feel unsatisfied. And cheated. For some bloody reason.

It's highly doubtful that this will happen now that Aviendha has seen it. One incredibly important person in the pattern doing something she'd never thought of otherwise will have profound effects on the most crucial days of an Age, and the butterfly effect from those actions will be incredibly widespread. It's been foreshadowed that the revelations of sul'dam being able to channel will severely cripple the Seanchan military. That certainly didn't happen in this future. The prophecies of the Dragon indicate that he will bind the Nine Moons to serve him. That didn't happen either. It would seem that this future is leading to the Dark One winning in the end if prophecy turns out wrong, and I just don't think that will happen after all this time.

 

I don't think these chapters really give away or spoil much at all, other than perhaps that Avi will have quadruplets, which was one of Min's viewings anyway.

I guess I'll have to settle for that explanation until the next book and hope to be surprised.
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Beautifully written scene, my favorite of the book, and one of the best of the series. I'd be shocked if that wasn't almost entirely done by RJ.

 

But of course it's not going to happen. Right after Aviendha sees the first vision and before she re-enters, she thinks, "...Those columns had shown the Aiel what they needed to know about themselves." [Emphasis RJ's.] Aviendha didn't need to know about that future unless she was going to do something to stop it, and that something is, at the least, telling her people not to **** with the Seanchan.

 

Genius, I hadnt noticed that. I think that might be the key to what went down there. It makes perfect sense. First Nakomi makes her think about the future of the Aiel out of nowhere. Then, as she is going through the second time, she is shown what she needs, the future of the Aiel if they do not change their ways.

 

In any case, I find it exteremly hard to believe that if this were to happen, RJ would put it in like that. Some argued that it is perfectly plausible that such a revelation is real and good storytelling, but it just doesnt feel like something RJ would do, it has a deeper meaning than just showing the "future".

 

In addition, I dont see how it is in any way reliable. She tampered with it a bit, and suddenly shows the future. Does this mean its true? Is it liike the 3 rings? Is it faulty?

 

Too much to place any real confidence in the visions.

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Sorry that I wasn't clear. I know where all the channelers are in the VISION. Where are all the Aiel Male Channelers now? Prior to Rand, they all went to the Blight, and were apparantly turned. But what about all the Aiel who either started to channel since, or could have been discovered? There should be a HUGE number of Aiel Channelers.

 

Also, I know that Perrin let the Seanchan take the Wise Ones. But. They were the Shaido Wise Ones, and I think it was sort of implied that letting the Seanchan take them was the only way to successfully deal with them right now. The "good" Wise Ones didn't really have the wherewithal to deal with the wise ones. They seemed to have abandoned Ji e Toh, so there was no guaranteee they would not rebel later. Practically, the Seanchan were strong enough to take the Wise Ones, no matter what Perrin wanted. He needed them to get back Faile, and couldn't really stop them. Keep in mind that his new, Kick-Ass army swelled since the battle of Malden. Prior to that donnybrook, the Seanchan would have crushed Perrin's forces.

 

Perrin agreed to let the Seanchan collar the Shaido Wise Ones. That is like me agreeing to let the Sun rise in the East. My agreement is largely ceremonial. I think we have seen since then that that decision has really weighed on Perrin. Freeing the chained channelers is definitely on the books.

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The prophecies of the Dragon indicate that he will bind the Nine Moons to serve him. That didn't happen either.

 

I don't disagree with the other stuff you're saying, but this would be the best proof and I disagree with it. There is no indication that he didn't bind the nine moons. He could have knelt to her and still bound them to serve him. If they agreed to fight with the "good guys" in the Last Battle and he managed to make a peace treaty between them and all of Randland, the prophecy could easily have been fulfilled. The Aiel even think of Tuon as honorable, and say they almost came to an agreement with her. And the "they" there meant only the Aiel. Everyone else seems to be peaceful with each other.

Edited by Deadsy
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Kneeling indicates subservience to me. This action could mean that they serve to aid his goals, or serve a needed function in his battle, but not to serve him. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, or I'm just incredibly biased on the side of not wanting to see it happen.

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All I know is that I want some cosmic smackdown applied to Seanchan and Tuon, especially her. How dare she think that everybody must bow to the Empress? I sincerely hope that Tuon and her cronies get booted out of Randland with their tails between them and never to come out of that Light-Forsaken land ever again.

 

I was so crushed to see the Aiel fall before the Seanchan. Aiel are much definitely better warriors than the Seanchans. I cannot help but feel that RJ has made the plight of Aiel similar to the plight of Native Americans. It seemed as RJ was saying to the Aiel that Aiel must progress and stop holding on to their old ways. They must adapt to the changing world or they will be destroyed by it. Before Avi went to Rhuidhean, she was bemusing about Aiel traditions and Aiel insistence that traditions be kept and how Avi disagree with that aspect saying that only good relevant traditions should be adhered. She also saw and witnessed the changes that Rand wrought upon Aiel with his changes to Rhuidhean and asking to herself whether it would be a good idea to go with the changes or fight them.

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just a few thoughts.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

 

No, sorry, but this is wrong. The real cause of the war was the fact that Rand's children misled the Queen of Andor (among others, presumably) concerning Seanchan intentions. They circulated Seanchan contingency plans for an invasion of various non-Seanchan lands (obtained during a raid of Ebou Dar), but portrayed them as being straight up invasion plans. The Dragon's 'subordinate' position had no role to play in breaching the peace. The Aiel and their wetlander allies breached the peace first (the latter on false pretenses), then the Seanchan responded.

 

Completely right. The Seanchan never ignored the Dragon's Peace, Andor did at the manipulations of the Aiel. As much as people dislike the Seanchan they are not the villains in what followed. Nor is Andor, really. The Aiel are the villains in this case and even Aviendha thinks of her descendants doing what they did with disgust.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

 

As I see it the Aiel has every right to take back the ones who where captured, especially when we know what the standing of wise ones is in there culture. Even clans at war will not interfer with the other clans wise ones. Also how do we know that it only is the shaido wise ones beeing kept? With travelling we know they will make attacks and raids and would they really let all the non channelers go? Sure they might not be able to retake the first who leaves after 1 year and 1 day. But how long would it take for them to figure it out and do everything they can to stop the rest. Once a da'covale always a da'covale.

 

Why do you insist the Seanchan keep to Aiel ways? Why does it justify the Aiel turning all of the other nations of Randland, happily at peace with the Seanchan with no real indication of this changing at the time, against the Seanchan and breaking the Dragon's Peace? The Aiel are in the wrong, not necessarily in fighting the Seanchan, but in pulling the rest of the continent in with them.

 

Based on the fact of the Dragon's Peace and that it seems likely it will be made very soon its reasonably safe to say that the Wise Ones are Shaido. In fact, I'd suggest the White Tower existing in this vision implies that Fortuona never gets to launch her plans against it. I'd actually bet she tries it and... she finds the assembly of nations, ta'veren pulls crap in, and the Dragon's Peace gets made right there.

 

The Aiel, in my opinion, were looking for a purpose. They found one in fighting the Seanchan. They were in the wrong, though that doesn't make the Seanchan right.

 

Of course, none of this matters now that Aviendha knows it. She will be changing it- all it requires is working with her fellow Wise Ones to instill a new sense of purpose within the Aiel and seeing that they get included with the Dragon's Peace. After their toh is met they need to discard the spears and find something more constructive. Or, if they insist on keeping the spears, act as the guard of the Dragon's Peace. Not actively break it.

 

ETA: Also, I really liked the fact of how the channeling in Rand's kids worked. I hope that's how its working right now for him, though I don't think we ever get confirmation. I can see some potentially devastating applications in combat against other channelers based in the permanent Source connection. It suggests the possibility that they cannot be shielded for starters, as they are always connected to it. Even if it wouldn't work that way, I still have to love the incredible talent his kids (and hopefully him) seem to display in weaves.

Edited by Elend
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just a few thoughts.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

 

No, sorry, but this is wrong. The real cause of the war was the fact that Rand's children misled the Queen of Andor (among others, presumably) concerning Seanchan intentions. They circulated Seanchan contingency plans for an invasion of various non-Seanchan lands (obtained during a raid of Ebou Dar), but portrayed them as being straight up invasion plans. The Dragon's 'subordinate' position had no role to play in breaching the peace. The Aiel and their wetlander allies breached the peace first (the latter on false pretenses), then the Seanchan responded.

 

Completely right. The Seanchan never ignored the Dragon's Peace, Andor did at the manipulations of the Aiel. As much as people dislike the Seanchan they are not the villains in what followed. Nor is Andor, really. The Aiel are the villains in this case and even Aviendha thinks of her descendants doing what they did with disgust.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

 

As I see it the Aiel has every right to take back the ones who where captured, especially when we know what the standing of wise ones is in there culture. Even clans at war will not interfer with the other clans wise ones. Also how do we know that it only is the shaido wise ones beeing kept? With travelling we know they will make attacks and raids and would they really let all the non channelers go? Sure they might not be able to retake the first who leaves after 1 year and 1 day. But how long would it take for them to figure it out and do everything they can to stop the rest. Once a da'covale always a da'covale.

 

Why do you insist the Seanchan keep to Aiel ways? Why does it justify the Aiel turning all of the other nations of Randland, happily at peace with the Seanchan with no real indication of this changing at the time, against the Seanchan and breaking the Dragon's Peace? The Aiel are in the wrong, not necessarily in fighting the Seanchan, but in pulling the rest of the continent in with them.

 

Based on the fact of the Dragon's Peace and that it seems likely it will be made very soon its reasonably safe to say that the Wise Ones are Shaido. In fact, I'd suggest the White Tower existing in this vision implies that Fortuona never gets to launch her plans against it. I'd actually bet she tries it and... she finds the assembly of nations, ta'veren pulls crap in, and the Dragon's Peace gets made right there.

 

The Aiel, in my opinion, were looking for a purpose. They found one in fighting the Seanchan. They were in the wrong, though that doesn't make the Seanchan right.

 

Of course, none of this matters now that Aviendha knows it. She will be changing it- all it requires is working with her fellow Wise Ones to instill a new sense of purpose within the Aiel and seeing that they get included with the Dragon's Peace. After their toh is met they need to discard the spears and find something more constructive. Or, if they insist on keeping the spears, act as the guard of the Dragon's Peace. Not actively break it.

 

ETA: Also, I really liked the fact of how the channeling in Rand's kids worked. I hope that's how its working right now for him, though I don't think we ever get confirmation. I can see some potentially devastating applications in combat against other channelers based in the permanent Source connection. It suggests the possibility that they cannot be shielded for starters, as they are always connected to it. Even if it wouldn't work that way, I still have to love the incredible talent his kids (and hopefully him) seem to display in weaves.

 

Yep, I agree with you completely. As much as people hate the Seanchan, its not really their fault. And, to be completely honest, aside from the Channelers getting collared, it would be pretty good under Seanchan rule. They are efficiant at controlling an Empire.

 

However, as you said, it isnt going to happen. Nakomi, along with the vision, points to that vision not being something that is fact, but something she needed to see, to give the Aiel purpose again. i believe that Avi has too much honor to let these events happen. If she finds no other way, she would kill herself, or not have kids with Rand to prevent this future.

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The bit which annoys me is the whole 'the adam's are the damn problem' thoughts they have of the Seanchan.

 

Treaty with the Seanchan or not, with agreement to leave them their current damane or not, Egwene and Nynaeve should have the flick of Power (and it's a flick a Novice should be able to do, it's not a complex weave of the 5 powers requiring a circle or wondergirl strength) to open an adam should be taught right now to every women who can channel - Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Kin, Windfinders. And tell the men what they do so they can quickly figure an equivalent male version.

 

It's a massive plot contrivance that the Seanchan are going to be a threat in the future. Their opponents should be in circles (even if only 2) and as soon as damane appear free them. A circle tops a damane, and you only need one circle free (or even a single channeler who knows the trick) in a battle of dozens or hundreds to soon have almost every adam attached only to a sul'dams wrist.

 

If I could pick only one thing to happen in AMOL, it'd be Tuon having an adam snapped around her neck (by anyone except Egwene - that'd be the arrogant leading the pig-headed or vice versa) and made in front of all the Seanchan Blood left to try and carry her adam across the room. 'Ooohh I'm sorry Empress, if you'd like it off, just hold this little white rod and swear to follow the Dragon Reborn and release all your damane'.

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from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

 

As I see it the Aiel has every right to take back the ones who where captured, especially when we know what the standing of wise ones is in there culture. Even clans at war will not interfer with the other clans wise ones. Also how do we know that it only is the shaido wise ones beeing kept? With travelling we know they will make attacks and raids and would they really let all the non channelers go? Sure they might not be able to retake the first who leaves after 1 year and 1 day. But how long would it take for them to figure it out and do everything they can to stop the rest. Once a da'covale always a da'covale.

 

Why do you insist the Seanchan keep to Aiel ways? Why does it justify the Aiel turning all of the other nations of Randland, happily at peace with the Seanchan with no real indication of this changing at the time, against the Seanchan and breaking the Dragon's Peace? The Aiel are in the wrong, not necessarily in fighting the Seanchan, but in pulling the rest of the continent in with them.

 

Based on the fact of the Dragon's Peace and that it seems likely it will be made very soon its reasonably safe to say that the Wise Ones are Shaido. In fact, I'd suggest the White Tower existing in this vision implies that Fortuona never gets to launch her plans against it. I'd actually bet she tries it and... she finds the assembly of nations, ta'veren pulls crap in, and the Dragon's Peace gets made right there.

 

The Aiel, in my opinion, were looking for a purpose. They found one in fighting the Seanchan. They were in the wrong, though that doesn't make the Seanchan right.

 

Of course, none of this matters now that Aviendha knows it. She will be changing it- all it requires is working with her fellow Wise Ones to instill a new sense of purpose within the Aiel and seeing that they get included with the Dragon's Peace. After their toh is met they need to discard the spears and find something more constructive. Or, if they insist on keeping the spears, act as the guard of the Dragon's Peace. Not actively break it.

 

ETA: Also, I really liked the fact of how the channeling in Rand's kids worked. I hope that's how its working right now for him, though I don't think we ever get confirmation. I can see some potentially devastating applications in combat against other channelers based in the permanent Source connection. It suggests the possibility that they cannot be shielded for starters, as they are always connected to it. Even if it wouldn't work that way, I still have to love the incredible talent his kids (and hopefully him) seem to display in weaves.

 

I think you misunderstood me, what I ment was that the Aiel had every right to take back the ones who where captured from there own point of view. The fact that most or even all of them is Shaido doesn't matter, we see the wise ones saying that they will give the Seanchan 1 year and 1 day and after that they will take everyone back. So this wasn't something that happened after the last battle, this was something that they already knew they would do. How I see it is that they tried to protect the peace with offer of ransom for every aiel still in captivity but the seanchan wouldn't part with there damane so they decided to use force to get there people back. Pulling the other nations into the war the way they did was wrong ofcourse, that I do agree with.

 

Conserning the Dragons peace I do wonder how long it would have hold, especially with an empire built upon the foundation that there leader is the highest standing person in the world and that every woman who can channel must be taken and controlled. I would guess that as soon as the seanchan continent was back under control and every thing stailzed they would start the conqusts into the other countries. Just look how empires like Rome, Persia, Mughal, Ottoman and other like them expanded and conquered new land untill they either got to big to control everything and rebellions started to happen (big ones not the small kinds that always happened in this kinds of empires) or they run into someone who crushed their armies. And then the very size of the empire would make it hard to protect and controll, but this the seanchan doesn't need to care about, becuase they have travelling. What the aiel did when they started that war was probably only making everything happen 150 years earlier.

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just a few thoughts.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

 

No, sorry, but this is wrong. The real cause of the war was the fact that Rand's children misled the Queen of Andor (among others, presumably) concerning Seanchan intentions. They circulated Seanchan contingency plans for an invasion of various non-Seanchan lands (obtained during a raid of Ebou Dar), but portrayed them as being straight up invasion plans. The Dragon's 'subordinate' position had no role to play in breaching the peace. The Aiel and their wetlander allies breached the peace first (the latter on false pretenses), then the Seanchan responded.

 

Completely right. The Seanchan never ignored the Dragon's Peace, Andor did at the manipulations of the Aiel. As much as people dislike the Seanchan they are not the villains in what followed. Nor is Andor, really. The Aiel are the villains in this case and even Aviendha thinks of her descendants doing what they did with disgust.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

 

As I see it the Aiel has every right to take back the ones who where captured, especially when we know what the standing of wise ones is in there culture. Even clans at war will not interfer with the other clans wise ones. Also how do we know that it only is the shaido wise ones beeing kept? With travelling we know they will make attacks and raids and would they really let all the non channelers go? Sure they might not be able to retake the first who leaves after 1 year and 1 day. But how long would it take for them to figure it out and do everything they can to stop the rest. Once a da'covale always a da'covale.

 

Why do you insist the Seanchan keep to Aiel ways? Why does it justify the Aiel turning all of the other nations of Randland, happily at peace with the Seanchan with no real indication of this changing at the time, against the Seanchan and breaking the Dragon's Peace? The Aiel are in the wrong, not necessarily in fighting the Seanchan, but in pulling the rest of the continent in with them.

 

Based on the fact of the Dragon's Peace and that it seems likely it will be made very soon its reasonably safe to say that the Wise Ones are Shaido. In fact, I'd suggest the White Tower existing in this vision implies that Fortuona never gets to launch her plans against it. I'd actually bet she tries it and... she finds the assembly of nations, ta'veren pulls crap in, and the Dragon's Peace gets made right there.

 

The Aiel, in my opinion, were looking for a purpose. They found one in fighting the Seanchan. They were in the wrong, though that doesn't make the Seanchan right.

 

Of course, none of this matters now that Aviendha knows it. She will be changing it- all it requires is working with her fellow Wise Ones to instill a new sense of purpose within the Aiel and seeing that they get included with the Dragon's Peace. After their toh is met they need to discard the spears and find something more constructive. Or, if they insist on keeping the spears, act as the guard of the Dragon's Peace. Not actively break it.

 

ETA: Also, I really liked the fact of how the channeling in Rand's kids worked. I hope that's how its working right now for him, though I don't think we ever get confirmation. I can see some potentially devastating applications in combat against other channelers based in the permanent Source connection. It suggests the possibility that they cannot be shielded for starters, as they are always connected to it. Even if it wouldn't work that way, I still have to love the incredible talent his kids (and hopefully him) seem to display in weaves.

 

Yep, I agree with you completely. As much as people hate the Seanchan, its not really their fault. And, to be completely honest, aside from the Channelers getting collared, it would be pretty good under Seanchan rule. They are efficiant at controlling an Empire.

 

However, as you said, it isnt going to happen. Nakomi, along with the vision, points to that vision not being something that is fact, but something she needed to see, to give the Aiel purpose again. i believe that Avi has too much honor to let these events happen. If she finds no other way, she would kill herself, or not have kids with Rand to prevent this future.

 

I think Avi will show up and make sure Rand gives some definitive direction for the Aiel and also convince him that he needs to deal with the Seanchan, if only so that the forces of Light will not have to be watching their back currently. Rand's ta'vern effect has increased exponentially I'd say and I can see that having an effect on Fortuona. Rand also knows about Mat and Fortuona having some sort of a relationship now, I bet he might even take Mat along with him for that meeting.

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Just re-reading the scene in the future. The Aiel broke the Dragon's Peace. They failed him.

 

Remind anyone of what the prophecy ( i think it was) said: If the Aiel failed the Aes Sedai again, they would be destroyed?

 

Aiel failed Rand (Who is aes sedai, true Aes Sedai) and thus the Seanchan beat the crap out of them.

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I think that the key was that Rand knelt to Tuon, thus fulfilling Ishamael's twisted prophecy and not the real Prophecy of the Dragon.

 

In the next book, Rand will be faced with a choice. Trollocs are invading and he needs the Seanchan armies, so he can accept the lesser of two evils and bow to her in order to get her onside and let her keep the damane to fight the Shadow, or he can take time away from the Trollocs to deal with her and bind her to his service and break the damane's chains and have the Seanchan fight without collared slaves.

 

From a strategic point of view, it makes sense to take the first option, since however bad the Seanchan are, they're not as bad as Trollocs. Avi's vision, however, lets him know that if he does this he's handing the world to the Seanchan and destroying the Aiel as a people. This is what will make him decide to take the latter choice and deal with the Seanchan properly and fulfill the real prophecy instead of the fake one, so that Avi's vision doesn't come about.

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I agree with all of those here who were depressed at the thought of the Seanchan future. I too will be really disapointed if this happened. In fact, the whole reason I registered on this forum after so many years is because of this. I did notice that this future implied that all of the main characters died at the Last Battle. I also noted that the Queen of Andor didn't seem to be Elayne's daughter.

 

It's quite depressing that it would appear that everything that was fought for was forgotten and this became a phyrric victory of the westlands. However, there does seem to remain a sliver of hope. One of Min's visions, the one with the dragon fang on the door, implied that Rand would live through the Last Battle. this means that what Aviendha saw in the collumns was a possible future. Also, I dimly remember that the Wise One's said in the Shadow Rising that one musn't go through those collumns twice as Aviendha did. Perhapse that distorted what she saw?

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Also, I dimly remember that the Wise One's said in the Shadow Rising that one musn't go through those collumns twice as Aviendha did. Perhapse that distorted what she saw?

 

I originally thought that it was just because the Jenn told them that they shouldn't go through twice, so nobody ever did - tied into the whole usless tradition for the sake of tradition thing that Avi was complaining about. That would mean, however, that the Jenn were doing that so the Wise Ones wouldn't see the future, while at the same time having the columns next to the rings that they put there so that the Wise Ones could see the future, which is a bit inane. I think it's pretty much guaranteed that this is a potential future and not an inevitable future, so it's not all that different from the rings and it doesn't make much sense to want them to do one and not the other.

 

Hopefully they'll get into the whole rationale behind it in the next book.

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