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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Discuss Aviendha's Arc


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There are three seperate parties here.

The Aiel, The Seanchan, Taveren.

 

The Aiel who are CAPABLE of knowing their lineage from the Age of Legends

The Seanchan who know their lineage from Artur Hawkwing

The Taveren, who know have been granted knowledge of history.

 

Artur Hawkwing was said to have been the strongest Taveren of All time (next to LT). Obviously, the affects of Taveren allowed him to form the largest empire ever. This was realized by the Seanchan leadership to the affect they created a Ter’ angreal (chrystal throne) to affect people (obviously leaders in their society), as well as Ji E Toh (to a larger affect).

 

It is obvious both the Aiel, Tuatha’an, and the Seanchan practice Ji E Toh ALTERED from it’s original form.

 

And ... without vision, all people shall perish.

 

Avienda has had two prophecies delivered to her. One in the form of the Mystery woman in THe Waste, and the other traveling through the collums again. Both defining the message that the Aiel must evolve and find a new purpose, as all cultures must. the options are boundless, but revolve around some key areas.

 

Rhuiden. In book IV, Rand’s battle with Asmodean created a 3 mile lake in a land “...where a pool ten feet across drew people. People would come to this valley to live... The Waste would have a city.” Cairhen grew rich off of the trade routes afforded to them from the Aiel. The Aiel simply have to reopen these routes, with pacts secured by Avienda and Elayne (first Sisters). With Rhuiden acting as a “Capital City”, the Aiel could easily form their own nation within the three-fold-land.

 

The Seanchan. There is still a homeland to secure. The Aiel forming their own nation in the waste removes them from Seanchan inspections, thus a source of conflict. However, they bring a VERY efficient form of government, that point has been made clear by The Dragon Reborn.

 

The Dragon Reborn. Rand Al’ Thor is slowly shaking his world domination mind set off, and taking an “Indirect Leader” mind set. He will have two children with Elayne, and four with Avienda. Having Multiple Wives will be “athema” in the wetlands. I predict he will move to Rhuiden, and Remake the Aes Sedai as a Society, giving the Aiel their purpose as both servants, and protectors.

 

Mat made a clear statement as well to the departing “Marathdamane”, “... help me find a way to fix this without causing the empire to collapse.”

 

In short, are the Aiel Finished? No. As it has been stated time and time again, Propehcy is not final, nor is it guaranteed. In light of Avienda’s “vision”, I think she will make a different outcome

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Doesn't Tuan wanting to rule the world count as greedy? Sorry I have no idea what Babuada is talking about.

 

Neither does anyone else. :biggrin:

It was just another crazy theory I was trying to float about inherent flaw in the way OP is accessed. We know 13x13 uses this flaw. I was trying to extend it to A'dam. Here is Sherim's comment about 13x13

“This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever,

but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True

Source means that we can be opened to other things.”

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At first it seems that preventing this would be easy, but then I started to think about it.

It would be easy to delay it but we really saw that seanchan CAN beat everyone else alone. Even if Dragon's Peace

last longer, it will be forgotten in time. We have seen in the books how history is twisted. It might take 100 years

or 1000 years but in the end I don't see an easy way to prevent seanchan kicking everyone else's ass. Maybe the only way

is to take all damane and put them into WT as even if they are freed and left as a free channelers for the empress, my she live forever,

there will still be an army that can take over the world and (among seanchan) an omnipotent empress. It just takes one greedy empress who

drops the peace made so long in the past that few people remember it ever existed...

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It was just another crazy theory I was trying to float about inherent flaw in the way OP is accessed. We know 13x13 uses this flaw. I was trying to extend it to A'dam. Here is Sherim's comment about 13x13

“This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever,

but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True

Source means that we can be opened to other things.”

I wouldn't trust a quote from Black Ajah. It seems to me that the flaw would be in being able to channel, not the way you open yourself to the sourse.

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@Wonzer - if there is anything history teaches us, it's that no empire lasts forever.

Arthur Hawkwing's empire didn't, and neither will Fortuona's, no matter how much it may spread. And considering that the Seanchan home continent is for all purposes lost to them and in civil war driven chaos, the Seanchan Empire at present consists of Altara and Tarabon, and whatever hold they have over Amadicia and the sea folk islands. Which in my estimation puts them behind each of the "Dragon Empire" (Tear + Illian + Arad Doman + Borderlands), "Griffon Empire" (Andor + Mayenne + Cairhien + Ghealdan), united Aiel Clans, and to the best of our knowledge, Shara.

 

Oh well, at least they have those pesky Murandians beat.

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It was just another crazy theory I was trying to float about inherent flaw in the way OP is accessed. We know 13x13 uses this flaw. I was trying to extend it to A'dam. Here is Sherim's comment about 13x13

“This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever,

but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True

Source means that we can be opened to other things.”

I wouldn't trust a quote from Black Ajah. It seems to me that the flaw would be in being able to channel, not the way you open yourself to the sourse.

What is the reasoning behind your thinking (however farfetched I would like to know, afterall you saw mine :))

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@Wonzer - if there is anything history teaches us, it's that no empire lasts forever.

Arthur Hawkwing's empire didn't, and neither will Fortuona's, no matter how much it may spread. And considering that the Seanchan home continent is for all purposes lost to them and in civil war driven chaos, the Seanchan Empire at present consists of Altara and Tarabon, and whatever hold they have over Amadicia and the sea folk islands. Which in my estimation puts them behind each of the "Dragon Empire" (Tear + Illian + Arad Doman + Borderlands), "Griffon Empire" (Andor + Mayenne + Cairhien + Ghealdan), united Aiel Clans, and to the best of our knowledge, Shara.

 

Oh well, at least they have those pesky Murandians beat.

Fortuona just needs to go back and seat on the crystal throne and all rebels would fall apart. If some hard folks still fight, they just need to bring some of their leaders before the crystal throne and voila everybody becomes servant of the throne again.

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It was just another crazy theory I was trying to float about inherent flaw in the way OP is accessed. We know 13x13 uses this flaw. I was trying to extend it to A'dam. Here is Sherim's comment about 13x13

“This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever,

but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True

Source means that we can be opened to other things.”

I wouldn't trust a quote from Black Ajah. It seems to me that the flaw would be in being able to channel, not the way you open yourself to the sourse.

 

Not just that, look at the phrasing. "That we learn to open ourselves" indicates that since we allow one thing to enter us, then the next half "we can be opened to other things". Since they are talking about 13x13'ing someone, this statement can easily be taken to show the difference between chosing to learn to channel and being mind-raped by 13 BA/DAM plus 13 Fades. And it is mind-rape. No one AS or AM is more susceptible to being turned in this way than any other AS/AM is. Any channeler can have this done to them and it removes all of their willingness to perform Light-sided acts. Here is the quote by RJ from the Tor Question of the Week #15 as recorded by The 13th Depository.

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

It is not greed that causes this effect at all, instead greed is one of the things that will be strongest in a channeler after they are turned, because greed is the primary motivation of the Shadowsouled. Verin comments that she thinks that the one major factor that the DO looks for in his servants is selfishness. Isn't "greedy" another word for "selfish"?

 

What "flaw" are you proposing the 13x13ing uses? The only thing that makes one able to be 13x13'ed is the fact they can channel. This would apply to the new Randhi as well as any AS or even a sparking wilder in the Dorlan Hills. Anyone who can channel. whether they sought the ability or they are simply stuck with it (like Nyn) can be turned to the Shadow this way, so I repeat what "flaw"? It's is not a personality flaw, like greed for power or lack of regard for others, that makes them susceptible, for some, it is not even something that they can control (i.e. sparkers - male or female), so what other flaws are left. We know that it can only be done to someone who can channel. If 13x13ing someone required some other component besides being able to channel, it would seem like we would see a reference to that something else somewhere in the books.

 

" inherent flaw in the way OP is accessed. We know 13x13 uses this flaw."

 

Since the OP is accessed in 2 TOTALLY different ways, which one are you talking about that has the flaw? Saidar and Saidin are two halves of the whole, true, but as is shown multiple times throughout the books each is accessed in a different way. Each one completely[/]i alien to the other. So stating "how the OP as a whole is accessed " is simply ignoring the facts related from the books entirely.

 

Please be specific and use quotes from the books if you are going to pursue this.

 

The previous quote was good, except that it did not prove your point at all. In fact it worked more against the idea that there is something about "how embracing the source is done" that would make one more susceptible to 13x13ing.

Edited by Ishadar
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Just coming back to this conversation, since I happened to run across the answer to this in the Guide (or are the kids calling it the White Book these days?):

 

In this world there is no one beginning or one end, for each spoke of the great Wheel represents one of the seven Ages, receding into the past and returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing. With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree. For each Age there is a separate and unique pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age. This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave.

 

what if the columns can access the history of all previous weavings of the wheel, that would explain why it's so overwhelming, and make her feel like a grain of sand next to a mountain. so instead of seeing a potential future, she actually seeing a past weaving of the beginning of the 4th age? one that she needed to see to help her make her decision. maybe by touching it she changed what history of the wheel it accessed, and so now whoever goes through will see through the eyes of one of their previous lives descendants eyes.

Edited by samataim
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Just coming back to this conversation, since I happened to run across the answer to this in the Guide (or are the kids calling it the White Book these days?):

 

In this world there is no one beginning or one end, for each spoke of the great Wheel represents one of the seven Ages, receding into the past and returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing. With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree. For each Age there is a separate and unique pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age. This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave.

 

what if the columns can access the history of all previous weavings of the wheel, that would explain why it's so overwhelming, and make her feel like a grain of sand next to a mountain. so instead of seeing a potential future, she actually seeing a past weaving of the beginning of the 4th age? one that she needed to see to help her make her decision. maybe by touching it she changed what history of the wheel it accessed, and so now whoever goes through will see through the eyes of one of their previous lives descendants eyes.

 

If that were the whole story than why does she she through the eyes of her own child? Not a previous Age version of her child's soul, but her child that clearly remembers Avi's face. But I think the Columns are more akin to Portal Stones. Since every Clan Chief saw through the eyes of their own ancestor (presumably every WO as well), I would think that they are tied to the bloodline. This would be one reason that Wetlanders never come back out if they go in. The AS with the Jenn presumably tied this ter'angreal to the bloodlines of the Aiel. No one since then has been able (or have even tried) to change the Columns' function. Until Avi. It's possible that the original mechanisim that the ter'angreal used was akin to the PS and their access to the "Worlds of If". The Past is set and immutable, therefore the ter'angreal could have been tuned to show the Past for whatever bloodline entered it, but when Avi 'altered' it's orientation, it started tapping into the various "Worlds of If" for that bloodline, instead of the Past. And unlike Rand and Co's trip to Falme via PS, the Columns pick the most likely future of the bloodline and show it to the one who walks among them. This would also explain why Avi cannot go back through them a 3rd time even though she tries. When the switch was flipped to 'Past' everyone that entered them could only do so once in a lifetime, Avi is the only one we have seen enter since she flipped the switch to 'Future', and she was unable to activate them again after that. We know that there are PS worlds that the past is different, but by the same token there have to be worlds where the Past is identical, up to a certain point, which is why everybody that goes through the Columns (when looking at the Past) starts at the same point (when the Jenn call all of the Clans to Rhuidein. Something happened around that time that caused multiple worlds to break at this point which would be why the ter'angreal starts there (that being the closest place (and time) of similarity to the World we know as Randland).

 

Granted, if this were the case then it would make more sense that Avi's visions start with her children and move forward in time. But that sequence would have destroyed an suspense in the 2 chapters and Avi's growing sense of dread as she wound through the Columns the second time would have been non-existant if she had had the last vision first. So, its entirely possible, IMO, that the chapters were written that way as a literary device, and not something that came specifically as an effect of the ter'angreal. And if AMoL is lacking a Hairy Plopper (oops, I mean Harry Potter) type epilogue (ie 20 years in the future) then I doubt we will ever know just how the Future that Avi see turns out.

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I liked the concept of "flipping the switch" on the ter'angreal.

 

Throughout her walk towards Rhuidean and even after she's been through the columns in the this-was-your-lives mode, Aviendha's concerns/worries all seem to focus on what the _purpose_ of things would be. What would become of the city now that it was no longer hidden, now that it had the Lake? Did it make sense anymore for clan chiefs to come here to be tested when everyone already knew the story of the Aiel? She herself thinks that the trip through the columns was [sic] anti-climatic.

 

I wonder now if by flipping the switch Aviendha has not given the Aiel a new means of testing for their leaders. That is, instead of leaders having to endure the secret of their past, they would have endure the possibilities of their future? In the past, Aiel leaders had to live and guide their people based on the secret knowledge of the past Great Sin. The Aiel after the LB will have no purpose, the Great Sin is already known and will in theory be expunged when the Aiel have done what they were shaped to do in service of the Dragon Reborn.

 

In the future, then, would it not make more sense for the leaders of the Aiel to have at least some knowledge in an uncertain world to guide them in guiding their people? What if the Aiel remain in the Wetlands, but send their leaders to Rhuidean for testing still -- only this time they find possible futures that are are meant to give them some wisdom in guiding their choices? One kink is the whole dying thing -- would those who see a future too despairing fail to return? Seems less plausible, and perhaps no longer necessary.

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from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

 

I suspect that the reason that the Seanchan made no moves towards conquering the rest of Randland was that they were busy consolidating the Empresses rule over Seanchan proper, once the entirety of the Empire is secure I see no reason why they would not continue their goal of reclaiming all of Hawkwing's Empire from the "oathbreakers".

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I suspect that the reason that the Seanchan made no moves towards conquering the rest of Randland was that they were busy consolidating the Empresses rule over Seanchan proper, once the entirety of the Empire is secure I see no reason why they would not continue their goal of reclaiming all of Hawkwing's Empire from the "oathbreakers".

 

Conquering an entire continent in 2 generations? Seems a little far fetched ever for WoT

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I am starting to think that Avi projected her worries over the Aiel not having a purpose post TG, and her hatred/dislike for the seanchan, and she knows that rand is going to try and forge a peace deal at any cost (she was around during/before the meeting of tuon and rand). and those worries projected into the terangreal ran a simulation of sorts and showed what may happen, from the most advanced (chronologically) to the present(ish). This was her own fears projected back at her, and now that she has seen what 'will' happen she will work to change it.

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I suspect that the reason that the Seanchan made no moves towards conquering the rest of Randland was that they were busy consolidating the Empresses rule over Seanchan proper, once the entirety of the Empire is secure I see no reason why they would not continue their goal of reclaiming all of Hawkwing's Empire from the "oathbreakers".

 

Conquering an entire continent in 2 generations? Seems a little far fetched ever for WoT

 

As I said I think that was why the Seanchan had not attacked yet. I do not believe that the Aiel alone could stand for long against the united might of the Seanchan Empire (especially when they have traveling), presumably the Seanchan had to divert resources for fighting on both continents because as you said, even with traveling it would be hard to seem them succeed in consolidating the Empire in less than a century.

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This was personally the most powerful and heart-rending chapter in the entire series that I can recall.

 

All of the other stories and plotlines in the book had such intricate lead-ins and development, this was just sort of dumped on the reader in a very forceful and twisted way. I was completely unprepared.

 

What a great passage.

 

Okay, I kind of skimmed through the thread and did not see the answer (read first 7-8 pages and last three of 31+ at this point) so if someone answered in the 20ish pages I didn't read please forgive.

 

Anyway, here's what I thought about it: Robert Jordan has been setting this up for a LONG time, pretty much since Avi was introduced. I remember the Wise One's talking about Avi fulfilling her duties to the Aiel when she tried to stay a maiden, which I chalked up to her becoming a Wise One and helping her people that way. You also have them assigning her to be Rand's teacher in Aiel culture and several other things I'm blanking on right now, including a scene where it seemed like the Wise One's had dreamed of the future and came to the conclusion that Avi was involved with the Aiel surviving after TG. Anyway, the Wise One's make enough comments about her being the one to help save the Aiel that this didn't seemed contrived to me.

 

Man, I wish I had read through more recently to give a more detail description but at the very least I picked up on the whole "Something bad will happen to the Aiel unless Avi does something" way back in my read throughs. As I read through this time I'll try to jot down stuff to see how well Jordan did set this up.

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I think that "Rand's Truce" would have held the Seanchan, because theyre portrayed as being "honor bound". Such as the the dealing between Perrin and that capatain whatever her name was. Also, you had that Randland king who was raised to the blood when he swore to the throne. The Seanchan armies also appear well disciplined, unlike the Aiel who "take the fifth" of the areas they conquer.

Would the truce hold indefinitely, probably not. One thing is certain though, if the terangreal showed the past and future, it's that the Aiel start the war. But, more telling is the fact that the Aiel use treachery to do so. They willfully covered up the fact that the Seanchan report was only a Gaige of how people were responding to their presence and ways to neutralize potential threats.

Im confused though about the Aiel ultimate role, perhaps as with the Seanchan the role will not be found in the final book. Perhaps, as Jordan has been noted as indicated that parts of the books never get answered and is left up to the reader imaginations. As far as I can tell, Aiel as "conquers" are ddestined to fail. As stated earlier, the original Aiel followed the way of the leaf and were in keeping with Gaishan more than warriors and conquers. If all the wise woman shared Avienhda vision, would they willingly follow the conquers route? Or attempt a different path were the entire Aiel race not only survives but takes a place in history? And as if according to Jordan history repeats, wouldn't the fate of the Aiel be to "serve" once again?

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  • 10 months later...

I would like to pose another possible reading of the future seen through Aveindha's eyes.

One where Olver becomes Emperor.

 

Going off the idea that Aveindha saw a world without Matt

-Without Matt, Tuon Dies.

-The next person in succession for the Crystal Throne is Mat's 'son', Olver!

-Olver has a grudge against all the Aiel!

 

But! Matt survives, and Olver is never forced to become Emperor and so the Aiel have already a slightly better chance of survival.

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  • 2 months later...

I'm a little confused about the timeline, Aviendha's daughter and Rhuarcs son are not that old. The wise ones and aes sedai are meant to live for 100s of years even with the oath rod for the aes sedai, so how come no one from the main story line is alive? Even if everyone else died at TG, at least Aviendha and Elayne must have survived the last battle in order to give birth. I doubt the last battle happens after they give birth.... That would be too long. Everything points to the last battle being impending, maybe a couple of months max. So the ter angreal visions don't take into account Aviendha's and Elaynes longevity. I would have thought Elayne would still be queen when Aviendha's grand daughter visits Caemlyn. As sad as the story was, I think Sanderson may have messed up the timing a little bit?

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Actually thinking about it also in aviendhas visions, the Queen in andor wasn't elayne?

 

If she's Aes sedai and queen surely as a channeler she would live long enough to be queen when Aviendhas Grandchildren were about it's only 2 generations of about 20 odd years. true something could have happened to her but surviving the last battle and then dying of something else? that's a tough break man.

 

Another issue with those viewings is Rhuarcs son - I don't remember him seeing Rand first when he went to cold rocks hold, I don't recall any mention of Rhuarc having kids before this point, a lot of scenes with him being reunited with wives, but no mention of children, pregnant wife during the book but no kids, am I mistaken or is this another case of Brandon not reading up on the Aiel / getting his timelines wrong?

 

The visions do point at the fact that Aviendha, Rand, Elayne and a few others (except Bruan the wily old codger) survive the last battle but appear NOT to be present in the post tarmon gaidon world within 20 years of the last battle when as channelers they should live AGES, and where is Rand? he lived long enough after the last battle to get Aviendha pregnant with Quadruplets but then disappeared (I CAN imagine him running off afterwards with the ladies but why leave their kids, surely they would be targets of the seanchan?)

 

There seems to be too many contradictions/convenient absences in Aviendhas visions to suggest they point to a real future, OR Brandon was on smack when he wrote this chapter and decided he didn't need to bone up on any other Aiel info because he was only featuring Aviendha.

 

My suggestion is the Visions are NOT real but a reflection of the womans own greatest fears and weaknesses (or something else but NOT real). Aviendha is petrified the Aiel will be destroyed so she shes visions of it the loss of Ji and the Aiel using a sword and being hunted like rabbits everything she has pointed out in previous books as disliking. it would make more sense than so many glaring errors in these visions, I think there are too many and too obvious for them to be real visions.

 

It's a trick, get an Axe, Brandon MUST be playing with us.

 

I know this is a year late but I just read ToM. I've been searching the Internet for an explanation of the chapter as soon as i finished it and this explanation is exactly the same thoughts I had about it. Either Brandon screwed up or Aviendha mistook her fears for a foretelling.

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I was just happy to have a part in TOM with Avi in it....you all know by now that i think she is the most intresting underused character in the whole series....makes me mad!

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