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Discuss Aviendha's Arc


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1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??

 

Why not? Show the future but not the process that leads to it is one valid and effective way to tell a story. In Babylon 5 you were shown glimpses of what happens in the end even as early as 1st episode 1st season...

 

right.....

 

This is RJ we are talking about here. I wouldnt call his plots simple, he is much better than that.

 

Showing us something like this to scare the living crap out of people and having Avi change it is EXACTLY what he would do.

 

Look at Graendal and Perrin in this book. the Shadow Prophecies said Perrin has to die, yet, it didnt.

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This is RJ we are talking about here. I wouldnt call his plots simple, he is much better than that.

 

Showing the future != simple plot.

 

Results isn't the fun part of plot. It's how you get into the result. Meat of story isn't the end result. It's the process between start and end.

 

Having not-happy-happy end would actually be fitting for RJ's writing style rather than yet another case of fairystory with "and they lived happily ever after" ending.

Edited by tneva82
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1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??

 

Why not? Show the future but not the process that leads to it is one valid and effective way to tell a story. In Babylon 5 you were shown glimpses of what happens in the end even as early as 1st episode 1st season...

 

right.....

 

This is RJ we are talking about here. I wouldnt call his plots simple, he is much better than that.

 

Showing us something like this to scare the living crap out of people and having Avi change it is EXACTLY what he would do.

 

Look at Graendal and Perrin in this book. the Shadow Prophecies said Perrin has to die, yet, it didnt.

 

 

Did it? Or, did it say that Perrins pride had to die?

 

 

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1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??

 

Why not? Show the future but not the process that leads to it is one valid and effective way to tell a story. In Babylon 5 you were shown glimpses of what happens in the end even as early as 1st episode 1st season...

 

right.....

 

This is RJ we are talking about here. I wouldnt call his plots simple, he is much better than that.

 

Showing us something like this to scare the living crap out of people and having Avi change it is EXACTLY what he would do.

 

Look at Graendal and Perrin in this book. the Shadow Prophecies said Perrin has to die, yet, it didnt.

 

 

Did it? Or, did it say that Perrins pride had to die?

 

Moridin and Graendal certainly interperted it as him dying. Besides, that isnt the whole prophecy, the bit at the end. There could be a whole book for all we know.

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I read the death as being Hopper, not Perrin.

 

I don't think it's Perrin. He is the Fallen Blacksmith. But I don't think it's Hopper though it could be. I don't see how the death of Hopper could dishearten men.

 

Obviously the ability to channel of the sul'dam has did little to nothing to change things.

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That whole chapter was depressing to read. I had to put the book down and get some sleep (which was good because I had class in a few hours anyway).

 

The reveals really bothered me. It seemed like there were several hints of what will happen in AMoL. It felt too much like spoilers were being shoved in my face.

 

I don't have the book in front of me now, and I haven't read the last 7 chapters, but it seems unlikely any of this would be resolved now, plus I haven't heard anything about it reading around the spoiler boards. Still, here's what I've gathered. All these things seem likely to happen regardless of what Avi does:

 

-They imply that Rand will bow to Fortuona. This seems like an obvious move, but I was kind of hoping Rand would bring her to heel rather than bow himself.

-The Dragon's Peace. Rand will force a treaty between the various nations that extends beyond the last battle. Again, this seems like an obvious move but I would have enjoyed finding out about it as it happened.

-It seems like very few people survive the last battle. One of the Aiel is noted as being wise for having survived. Probably the vast majority of those who go to Shayol Ghul (unsure of the spelling off the top of my head) end up dead.

-The White Tower will survive Fortuona's assault that was planned only a few chapters before all this. Well, there goes all the tension I might have felt about that.

-The Black Tower will survive being rent in flame and blood or whatever the quote is, and will remain separate from the White Tower.

 

That's it off the top of my head. I need to sleep and read through the chapter again; there's probably more details that I missed. I realize this is only a possible future, but it still seems like it revealed way too much about what will happen in AMoL and after.

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This was personally the most powerful and heart-rending chapter in the entire series that I can recall.

 

All of the other stories and plotlines in the book had such intricate lead-ins and development, this was just sort of dumped on the reader in a very forceful and twisted way. I was completely unprepared.

 

What a great passage.

 

Yes it was!!!! and it pained my heart so much to see the Aiel destroyed if only as a cautionary tale that I simply hate the Seanchan now. I utterly despise them to the core. Rand should have wiped out Ebou Dar with Tuon, Mat's feelings be damned.

 

I hope Rand will give Seanchan the humbling they so richly deserved and assign them into oblivion in history. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Seanchan Empire is the creation or the works of Ishamael.

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Yes it was!!!! and it pained my heart so much to see the Aiel destroyed if only as a cautionary tale that I simply hate the Seanchan now. I utterly despise them to the core. Rand should have wiped out Ebou Dar with Tuon, Mat's feelings be damned.

 

I hope Rand will give Seanchan the humbling they so richly deserved and assign them into oblivion in history. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Seanchan Empire is the creation or the works of Ishamael.

 

someone needs to do something about them. Killing Tuon and making Mat the Emperor would work fine if you ask me.

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We're blaming a lot on the Seanchan here, but look at the flipside. what is it of the Aiel's culture that has brought them to this? I mean, you see Rand's kid saying that the Aiel have always only known war, grandchild with some serious powergrubbing witch issues. All there is for justification is 'the Aiel have always only known war'. I think there's been a lot of emphasis placed on the Aiel not having been sworn to the Dragon's peace. Yes, the Seanchan have gone a bit...shall we say genocidal in this is something that will also need to be addressed but the point of this was that there has some great change in the Aiel. I think it will have to involve them signing on to the peace, them receiving permanent land outside of the Waste, and something about how their perceive war.

 

I think this is for the most part an Aiel plotline rather than an Aiel/Seanchan plotline if that makes sense.

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As horrifying the Aiel's future is, the Sea Folk's seemingly could be considered as bad or worse, being relegated to the land, and the waste on top of it. That's assuming that the Folk are what's left of that society.

God, those scenes are unsettling still.

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I don't think that's what's going to happen. Because, there are two fairly easy things to do to fix it. Either A. get Rand to include the Aiel in his Peace of the Dragon or B. get EVERYONE to attack the Seanchan the moment the last battle ends. The Aiel lost because they fought the Seanchan alone, then pulled everyone else in when it was too late. Don't do that, and things should be okay. Also, don't let Amys, Rand, Tuon, Elayne, Nyneave, and Egwene die so young, that might help.

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In ToM the chapters regarding Aviendha’s journey to Rhuidean where the most fascinating to read for me. What the ter’angreal was able to show really leaves me in awe what incredible knowledge the brains behind the construction of the pillars most have possessed. Somehow, previous turnings of the wheel must have provided more fertile soil for human minds...

 

As to whether the prognostication depicted is the future to be I am assured in my belief that it is merely one of the possible futures. This has not so much to do with the fact that I cannot accept an ending without sunshine and rainbows abound, as to my firm belief in balance and limiting of power. For the ter’angreal to vaticinate the future to be, from now on, without any chance of avoiding this particular outcome, then it would be omnipotent in the knowledge department. From all the balancing RJ has done in WoT I feel this would be quite off, not to speak of the mind numbing thought what entity the maker of the pillars would have had to be. The portal stones, for instance, show many different futures, where the fainter ones are more improbable.

 

It would be more “realistic” if the pillars instead showed a future (the most likely?) in direct correlation with the actions of that persons descendants. (I admit that the algorithms to determine what is most likely would have to be somewhat esoteric.)

 

When Aviendha touches the pillars she seems to think that they are alive in some sense. I am not able to determine if she actually does something with them or if they they already have redefined their function on their own (or due to the actions of another traveller). To me, it seems as if she does not do anything; just touching without comprehending.

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I don't think that's what's going to happen. Because, there are two fairly easy things to do to fix it. Either A. get Rand to include the Aiel in his Peace of the Dragon

Yeah, that sounds easy enough.
or B. get EVERYONE to attack the Seanchan the moment the last battle ends. The Aiel lost because they fought the Seanchan alone, then pulled everyone else in when it was too late. Don't do that, and things should be okay. Also, don't let Amys, Rand, Tuon, Elayne, Nyneave, and Egwene die so young, that might help.

In the visions Rand knelt to the Empress, which would probably mean that the Seanchan lent aid to the battles at best, or at worst they just agreed to not attack everyone else. This would 'fulfill' their altered prophecies that Ishamael likely planted over there, ultimately playing into the shadow's hands. It will not bind the Nine Moons to Serve him. If he kneels, it could very well mean that the DO wins, with prophecy and viewings left unfulfilled.

 

Since there were so few generations shown in Avi's viewings, and the last one obviously not a mother, it seems that the line of the Dragon amongst the Aiel dies out completely. Could this be an indication that the People of the Dragon are forever destroyed? If so, how would Aiel come to be in other Ages? Is the line of the previous Dragon essential to the next rebirth?

 

Also, about not letting people die so young, we have no idea exactly what's going to happen at all, other than Brandon said the end is fantastic. Preventing people's deaths might be either impossible or worse than if they actually died.

 

(idle thoughts that keep floating up)

I shudder to think of how a leashed Wise One with their long lifespan would view the ultimate fate of their people. Some inner part of them that still remembers before they crossed the Spine of the World... damn those scenes.

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A couple of points:

 

I think that Avi's vision in the columns will lead her to conclude that the Aiel must return to the Way of the Leaf. I have a few reasons for thinking this:

 

1. The discussion with Nakomi centered on the underlying reason/purpose of the Aiel's self-imposed exile to the Three-fold Land. Nakomi argues (and Avi agrees) that life in the Waste served a dual function: a) to punish the Aiel for abandoning the Way, and b) to prepare them to meet their toh by fighting (and presumably dying in large numbers) in the Last Battle for the Dragon Reborn. Once the Dragon has no more need of a fanatically loyal army of marathon-running ninja-Vikings, their lifestyle of constant internecine warfare in a hard land becomes unnecessary (from the Pattern's point of view). And, once they have met their toh, they are free to forget the sin that gave rise to it, i.e. abandonning the Way of the Leaf. The only way to move past that sin is to stop committing it and return to the Way. To continue in their warrior lifestyle would be to abandon ji'e'toh.

 

2. A number of events depicted in the visions indicate that the source of the problem is the Aiel's inability to abandon a life of violence. This inability has both internal and external causes. The primary external cause seems to be that Rand failed to include them in the Peace. This left them free to wage a war of aggression on the Seanchan. (Rand also seems to have botched the negotiations with the Seanchan by failing to deal with the problem of the captured Wise Ones--and, more generally, the damane problem as a whole). The primary internal cause seems to be their self-image as a warrior people, a perception that was probably reinforced by Rand's failure to include them in the peace treaty.

 

All of that taken together suggests that in order for the Aiel to survive as a distinct people they must abandon violence and return to the Way. Only in that way can they avoid a nihilistic (and ultimately unwinnable) war against the Seanchan and the total abandonment of ji'e'toh. I think Avi will push them in that direction.

 

One further point: as I explained in a Theoryland theory, I predict that the Bore will be closed through Seed Singing (a prediction made even more likely by TOM, it seems to me). It may be--contrary to what I suggested in the original theory--that some of the Aiel must return to the Way in order to perform the Singing, in which case Avi's mission would be quite urgent. But, in any event, the re-discovery of the Song will certainly provide them with an alternate purpose in the post-Tarmon Gaidon world. In fact, Aiel Seed Singers might become the glue that binds the Seanchan and non-Seanchan lands together, or gives the non-Seanchans a long-term demographic advantage.

 

One furtherer point: the Wise One prophecy says that only a "remnant of a remnant shall he save". That suggests either a) MASSIVE Aiel losses at Shayol Ghul, or b) only a fraction of the Aiel will accept to return to the Way. The others, having abandoned ji'e'toh and turned to a life of pointless violence, will die out as a distinct cultural group.

Edited by Dashain_is_your_daddy
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just a few thoughts.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

remember the dragon prophesy, that he binds the 9 moons to serve him,

 

we seem to have conflicting prophesies.. however, could not his bowing to the crystal throne be his realization in ebou dar that the people felt safe there?

 

 

in order to prevent that future rand imo must not bow to the crystal throne- literally. and i am of 2 thoughts on this part; either the aiel must be included in the Dragon's Peace OR there must not BE a Dragon's Peace.. either option could work to help prevent the catastrophe that awaits... but the literal bowing must not occur imo.

Edited by lenardo
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just a few thoughts.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

 

No, sorry, but this is wrong. The real cause of the war was the fact that Rand's children misled the Queen of Andor (among others, presumably) concerning Seanchan intentions. They circulated Seanchan contingency plans for an invasion of various non-Seanchan lands (obtained during a raid of Ebou Dar), but portrayed them as being straight up invasion plans. The Dragon's 'subordinate' position had no role to play in breaching the peace. The Aiel and their wetlander allies breached the peace first (the latter on false pretenses), then the Seanchan responded.

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I was very very upset after I read about Aviendha's visions. I don't necessarily think aiel are violent people they fought Lamen because he cut the tree of life Avendesora. Even during that war they turned back even though it has been heavily implied that they could have conquered every nation if they proceeded.

 

Also the Seanchan system is evil. Da'Covale are slaved and the Damane are worse than slaves they are animals. I am not blaming the people but the system to think that they would win and continue treating people they do made me sick.

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A couple of points:

 

I think that Avi's vision in the columns will lead her to conclude that the Aiel must return to the Way of the Leaf. I have a few reasons for thinking this:

 

1. The discussion with Nakomi centered on the underlying reason/purpose of the Aiel's self-imposed exile to the Three-fold Land. Nakomi argues (and Avi agrees) that life in the Waste served a dual function: a) to punish the Aiel for abandoning the Way, and b) to prepare them to meet their toh by fighting (and presumably dying in large numbers) in the Last Battle for the Dragon Reborn. Once the Dragon has no more need of a fanatically loyal army of marathon-running ninja-Vikings, their lifestyle of constant internecine warfare in a hard land becomes unnecessary (from the Pattern's point of view). And, once they have met their toh, they are free to forget the sin that gave rise to it, i.e. abandonning the Way of the Leaf. The only way to move past that sin is to stop committing it and return to the Way. To continue in their warrior lifestyle would be to abandon ji'e'toh.

 

2. A number of events depicted in the visions indicate that the source of the problem is the Aiel's inability to abandon a life of violence. This inability has both internal and external causes. The primary external cause seems to be that Rand failed to include them in the Peace. This left them free to wage a war of aggression on the Seanchan. (Rand also seems to have botched the negotiations with the Seanchan by failing to deal with the problem of the captured Wise Ones--and, more generally, the damane problem as a whole). The primary internal cause seems to be their self-image as a warrior people, a perception that was probably reinforced by Rand's failure to include them in the peace treaty.

 

All of that taken together suggests that in order for the Aiel to survive as a distinct people they must abandon violence and return to the Way. Only in that way can they avoid a nihilistic (and ultimately unwinnable) war against the Seanchan and the total abandonment of ji'e'toh. I think Avi will push them in that direction.

 

One further point: as I explained in a Theoryland theory, I predict that the Bore will be closed through Seed Singing (a prediction made even more likely by TOM, it seems to me). It may be--contrary to what I suggested in the original theory--that some of the Aiel must return to the Way in order to perform the Singing, in which case Avi's mission would be quite urgent. But, in any event, the re-discovery of the Song will certainly provide them with an alternate purpose in the post-Tarmon Gaidon world. In fact, Aiel Seed Singers might become the glue that binds the Seanchan and non-Seanchan lands together, or gives the non-Seanchans a long-term demographic advantage.

 

One furtherer point: the Wise One prophecy says that only a "remnant of a remnant shall he save". That suggests either a) MASSIVE Aiel losses at Shayol Ghul, or b) only a fraction of the Aiel will accept to return to the Way. The others, having abandoned ji'e'toh and turned to a life of pointless violence, will die out as a distinct cultural group.

 

Great post! I really like these theories. I have always believed the Way of the Leaf and the Tinkers would be pivotal to the Last Battle and the post-LB world.

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I think the Aiel are the key to the victory of the light, no matter the era. In the AOL they kept the way of the leaf, and gave hope to the world as it fought the darkness. The world had forgotten war, and the Way of the Leaf Aiel reminded people what they were fighting for, as well as apparently helping supply food for the entire world.

 

In the current age, the Aiel need to be warriors. Basically, the Aiel exist to produce and ultimately support Dragons, whoever they may be in that given age. The DO knows this, and is planning ahead through Ismael, probably the most cunning character in the series. The Seanchan COULD thwart the Dragon in this era. If not, on to the next play. For the DO, whoever it is in a certain era, the game theory is different than for the people alive. The living play a finite number of games. Ultimately it leads to the Last Battle. For the DO there is no end to the game. If he loses this one, then he lives to fight another day. Thus, the living can put all there efforts into winning the LB, but the DO can make contingency plans for the next LB. The Seanchan represent several of these threads.

 

In EOTW, Ismael said that he had been whispering in Hawkwing's ear at the end of his life. I can see him convincing Hawkwing to send his sons to Seanchan to conquer them. How else did Hawkwing even know they existed? This served two purposes. 1: It weakened Hawkwing's empire enough so that it crumbled, leaving a divided and weaker opponent for the DO to face. 2: It gave Ismael a chance to set up the Seanchan.

 

This led to more possibilities. Now the DO has the Seanchan who leash channelers, probably as a further result of Ismael's manipulations of Hawkwing's sons into hating the Aes Sedai. Now the Seanchan can trip up Rand Al'thor, the Dragon. If they fail, then you have left behind the architect of the next age's destruction. The Seanchan will leash the Aes Sedai, weakening them. They will also wipe out the Aiel, possibly ending the chances of the next Dragon even being born. Should he BE born, he now lacks a people to help him win the LB. This means a weak group of channelers at the next LB. A stronger Military to oppose the DO, perhaps, but without the channlers to beat him.

 

The DO always has his eyes on the next game, even as he fights this one. As an eternal, time means nothing to Evil.

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I think the Aiel are the key to the victory of the light, no matter the era. In the AOL they kept the way of the leaf, and gave hope to the world as it fought the darkness. The world had forgotten war, and the Way of the Leaf Aiel reminded people what they were fighting for, as well as apparently helping supply food for the entire world.

 

In the current age, the Aiel need to be warriors. Basically, the Aiel exist to produce and ultimately support Dragons, whoever they may be in that given age. The DO knows this, and is planning ahead through Ismael, probably the most cunning character in the series. The Seanchan COULD thwart the Dragon in this era. If not, on to the next play. For the DO, whoever it is in a certain era, the game theory is different than for the people alive. The living play a finite number of games. Ultimately it leads to the Last Battle. For the DO there is no end to the game. If he loses this one, then he lives to fight another day. Thus, the living can put all there efforts into winning the LB, but the DO can make contingency plans for the next LB. The Seanchan represent several of these threads.

 

In EOTW, Ismael said that he had been whispering in Hawkwing's ear at the end of his life. I can see him convincing Hawkwing to send his sons to Seanchan to conquer them. How else did Hawkwing even know they existed? This served two purposes. 1: It weakened Hawkwing's empire enough so that it crumbled, leaving a divided and weaker opponent for the DO to face. 2: It gave Ismael a chance to set up the Seanchan.

 

This led to more possibilities. Now the DO has the Seanchan who leash channelers, probably as a further result of Ismael's manipulations of Hawkwing's sons into hating the Aes Sedai. Now the Seanchan can trip up Rand Al'thor, the Dragon. If they fail, then you have left behind the architect of the next age's destruction. The Seanchan will leash the Aes Sedai, weakening them. They will also wipe out the Aiel, possibly ending the chances of the next Dragon even being born. Should he BE born, he now lacks a people to help him win the LB. This means a weak group of channelers at the next LB. A stronger Military to oppose the DO, perhaps, but without the channlers to beat him.

 

The DO always has his eyes on the next game, even as he fights this one. As an eternal, time means nothing to Evil.

 

As does Ishmael who is waiting for the world to end and the DO to win. Unlike the other Forsaken he realizes what the DO actually wants. He is smart enough to plan for the next battle. He is probably preparing for the Next Last Battle as well as the current one.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

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I think some of the DO's prophecies tie in to this. If the Ta'Verens die, then the Seanchan will rise. If the TV's die prior to LB, then the DO gets out now. If they die during or immediately after the LB, then the Seanchan weaken humanity to the point where the DO wins the next LB.

 

Also, where are the Male Aiel Channelers? I may have skimmed over it, but the Aiel produce a river of chicks who can channel. It stands to reason that there would be a corresponding river of Male channlers, who are also beasts in unarmed combat. With their martial training, they would make even better channlers, because they already have the focus and concentration skills to pick up channeling.

 

It seems like Rand is leaving a club in his bag for them. I sort of hope that Logain is converting Aiel male channelers.

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from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

Edited by Deadsy
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It all comes back to the Ta'Veren. If Mat, Rand, and Perrin survive the LB, the world changes. They will never allow the Seanchan to chain people as slaves, Channelers or non-channelers. Especially with them being on the doorstep of the Two Rivers.

 

According to Avi's visions, all three die, which would satisfy the DO's propehcies, which may not apply to THIS LB. If Mat dies, then he cannot influence Tuon. I mean, his SISTER is Aes Sedai. If he lived, his love would perhaps persuade Tuon to change. Also, with him alive, they would have children, who Mat would again influence for the better. Without him, Tuon will probably have no successor, and probably get assainated soon after the LB. With Mat, Tuon would have a general to lead her forces back to Seandar to reclaim Seanchan, and liberate their Damane. Without Mat, Tuon has to bide her time here to build up her forces to reclaim Seandar. She is assainated by someone who likes it right here thankyouverymuch.

 

Perrin and Rand would never allow the chaining of people. With them, they have the strength to defeat the Seanchan, lead the world to peace, and help the Aiel rediscover the WOL as the centuries go by.

 

The peace of the Dragon means nothing without him and his two best generals to enforce it. Imagine trying to break said peace knowing that Rand, his Asha'Man, Band of the Red Hand, and the Wolf Guard of Manetheren (Two Rivers) would lower the boom on you. No me gusta.

 

Save the Ta'veren, save the future.

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