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Discuss Aviendha's Arc

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I think this vision is of what would've happened if Rand hadn't had his Epiphany on Dragonmount.

 

 

If Rand hadn't had his epiphany, the Big Guy would have already won, since Rand would have done his job (obliterating time and reality itself) for him.

 

Ergo, no war between Aiel and Seanchan.

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There is an easy enough way for Aviendha to change the future. It was the first thing that occurred to me while reading about her four children.

 

I would definitely pick different names for the kids than those which were revealed in the vision.

Just in case death during childbirth, make sure the new names selected were given to EVERY wise one around.

 

Problem solved. New future. :tongue:

Edited by James71

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First off I would like to say that the Avi scenes are some of the most amazing scenes written in the series. In plot and emotional impact. In coming out of left field(even though after TGS we probably should have put two and two together....Avi the ter'angreal reader going to a bigass ter'angreal....). It was just an amazing scene, and possibly the hardest I've ever found to actually read a piece of fiction. It was truely disconcerting to have the "goalpost" changed so completely from the DO, to realizing how the Last Battle really is just another beginning if Rand does win. I think I've heard both Jordan and Brandon were of the opinion that Rand's trip through the ter'angreal in The Shadow Rising was some of the best storytelling in the entire series, and I agree completely. I never would have imagined that that kind of thing could have been recaptured, but I think this scene did.

 

Second off I think there is a real chance of this happening. In fact, I think it's exactly what will happen unless Avi does something. While this something may involve Rand, it will be up to Avi herself to make sure this future doesn't come to pass. Remember Rand telling Rodel that he could no longer really take a hand in the battles? This is the same kind of thing, I think.

 

I was struck by just how much ToM seemed like the sequel to The Shadow Rising/The Fires of Heaven/Lord of Chaos that the other latter books really weren't. It settled the Perrin stuff that was put on hold almost completely since TSR. It capped off the Snakes and Foxes/Moiraine/Mat arc that was begun in TSR/tFoH. This is important because a line of the story that has kind of gotten buried under the books inbetween is that Avi was sent to Rand as a way to keep Rand attached to, and to understand the Aiel. I really do think this was a purposeful connection RJ was trying to make, and is important to the resolution of this arc.

 

The reason this bothered me so much was because one of the undercurrents of ToM was that everyone was making substantial plans for what would happen AFTER the Last Battle. Perrin was planning for the future of the Two Rivers and all those attached to his rule. Elayne was planning for Andor and Cairien. Egwene was making great steps to unite all the channelers of the world. It wasn't just heartbreaking to see what happened to the Aiel, but to see that all of those plans were destroyed by the Seanchan.

 

Some seem to think that this is a future not likely to happen, but the thing is that no promise or edict by Rand is going to prevent it. It is a bleak future that is LIKELY to happen. As rules are passed down from generation to generation, each caring less and less about the actions of thier great predecessors, petty bickering will make any ties to them seem meaningless.

 

So yeah, promises or pacts are next to meaningless. What is substantial is to change the culture, or try to give the culture a nudge. As was made pretty obvious by the visions Avi needs to help the Aiel find a direction after the Last Battle. It's not surprising that thier way of life and culture could turn into something ugly without a firm direction. Does this include returning to the Way of the Leaf? I am not sure, it is hard to imagine that big of a leap.

 

However, another thing is that on the Seanchan side of things, I think there are a couple things that definitely need to be changed. Obviously something needs to be done about the damane. It could be that the Seanchan were working through the internal strife that has been being subtly set up by returning sul'dam to them that can channel. Perhaps they were working towards freeing them. Cultural strife of that can take more then 17 years. Perhaps the fault of it lies in the Aiel attacking the Seanchan in this time of change, thus tipping the balance to the side that says damage must stay leashed(an outside threat is a great way to silence the "doves" of any country, as I think we've seen....). So yeah, the damane might not be something that needs Avi's actual attention. It may be something that is on it's course now, and Avi just needs to make sure the Aiel do not intervene at the wrong time and tip the Seanchan in the wrong direction.

 

However, I think one thing that Avi may need to do is intervene in Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne. Remember that it still seems likely that the Seanchan version of the prophesy is a tainted version that very well may have come straight from Ishy's lips. Rand, in his new piece of mind, may think that it is more prudent to kneel before the Crystal Throne as a way of getting Tuon on board. Afterall, his new found humility and piece of mind might say, what does it matter if he bows before her? He just needs to get her to help or not interfer in the Last Battle. I think this is a mistake that possibly only Avi can now point out to him. He should not bow to Tuon based on a bastardized version of prophecy. Now that she has traveling she may even retrieve the throne itself for Rand to bow before....so we're talking about him bowing because a likely ter'angreal that inspires worship in the empress(perhaps planted by Ishy himself as well). I do agree with others that this very well might be another instance of Ishy planning longterm. Rand can not afford to allow the Seanchan descendents to be of the mind that even the Dragon Reborn himself bowed before the empress.

 

So yeah, I think this is Avi's problem to fix, but it does involve Rand. When she returns to him she needs to advise him against bowing before the Seanchan. Perhaps taking a harder line that prevents them from taking part in the Last Battle, but an agreement that at least keeps them from attacking until it is over. This itself may offer an oppurtunity to Tuon to, with the help of Mat, realize that she needs to make some good decisions on her own. Which could bring her to the side of the Light in a good way, instead of in the mindset that even the Dragon Reborn is her subject. And as we've already seen with Perrin, likely nothing is going to bring the Seanchan to respect Randlanders more then fighting alongside them. Perhaps seeing what channeling women can do in a battle without being chained up could be a positive influence.

 

Another thing Avi needs to do is rather obvious. She needs to help the Aiel find a purpose after the Last Battle. Like I said, I am not sure what this will be. Finding the Way of the Leaf and the song may be it, but it's hard to imagine such a profound change. Perhaps the Aiel are meant to be there at Shayul Ghul when Rand attacks, and it's Avi's mission to get them to lay down thier spears and all find the song at that moment to help Rand seal the Bore the right way. This would give some explanation for why is matters that that Ogier not leave(I love Loial too, but right now it's not really seeming like some Ogiers in a battle are going to matter all that much). This kind of dramatic event I could see perhaps converting all the Aiel to the Way of the Leaf. Perhaps this is the way that things are "really" meant to go down, and the the reason most everyone seems to be dead after only 17 years is that a sealing without Avi's new direction would be a flawed sealing that leads to most dying.

 

Guess we'll find out in a year and change....so fun to speculate!

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I actually quite like that idea. However, it does then beg the question of what the whole mystery around Callandor and Rand's three-way circle is going to be, if it's not connected to sealing the Bore.

 

Well, it may take Rand trying the force approach and dying for it before he has his next epiphany and figures out that using the Force, Luke will be what works.

 

There has to be a reason he has Obi Wan Telamon in his head after all.

Either way, it'll be interesting seeing Rand Sedai in action again.

 

I always wondered who was the better swordsman, Rand or Galad. Shame we'll never see that match-up :(.

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First off I would like to say that the Avi scenes are some of the most amazing scenes written in the series. In plot and emotional impact. In coming out of left field(even though after TGS we probably should have put two and two together....Avi the ter'angreal reader going to a bigass ter'angreal....). It was just an amazing scene, and possibly the hardest I've ever found to actually read a piece of fiction. It was truely disconcerting to have the "goalpost" changed so completely from the DO, to realizing how the Last Battle really is just another beginning if Rand does win. I think I've heard both Jordan and Brandon were of the opinion that Rand's trip through the ter'angreal in The Shadow Rising was some of the best storytelling in the entire series, and I agree completely. I never would have imagined that that kind of thing could have been recaptured, but I think this scene did.

 

Second off I think there is a real chance of this happening. In fact, I think it's exactly what will happen unless Avi does something. While this something may involve Rand, it will be up to Avi herself to make sure this future doesn't come to pass. Remember Rand telling Rodel that he could no longer really take a hand in the battles? This is the same kind of thing, I think.

 

I was struck by just how much ToM seemed like the sequel to The Shadow Rising/The Fires of Heaven/Lord of Chaos that the other latter books really weren't. It settled the Perrin stuff that was put on hold almost completely since TSR. It capped off the Snakes and Foxes/Moiraine/Mat arc that was begun in TSR/tFoH. This is important because a line of the story that has kind of gotten buried under the books inbetween is that Avi was sent to Rand as a way to keep Rand attached to, and to understand the Aiel. I really do think this was a purposeful connection RJ was trying to make, and is important to the resolution of this arc.

 

The reason this bothered me so much was because one of the undercurrents of ToM was that everyone was making substantial plans for what would happen AFTER the Last Battle. Perrin was planning for the future of the Two Rivers and all those attached to his rule. Elayne was planning for Andor and Cairien. Egwene was making great steps to unite all the channelers of the world. It wasn't just heartbreaking to see what happened to the Aiel, but to see that all of those plans were destroyed by the Seanchan.

 

Some seem to think that this is a future not likely to happen, but the thing is that no promise or edict by Rand is going to prevent it. It is a bleak future that is LIKELY to happen. As rules are passed down from generation to generation, each caring less and less about the actions of thier great predecessors, petty bickering will make any ties to them seem meaningless.

 

So yeah, promises or pacts are next to meaningless. What is substantial is to change the culture, or try to give the culture a nudge. As was made pretty obvious by the visions Avi needs to help the Aiel find a direction after the Last Battle. It's not surprising that thier way of life and culture could turn into something ugly without a firm direction. Does this include returning to the Way of the Leaf? I am not sure, it is hard to imagine that big of a leap.

 

However, another thing is that on the Seanchan side of things, I think there are a couple things that definitely need to be changed. Obviously something needs to be done about the damane. It could be that the Seanchan were working through the internal strife that has been being subtly set up by returning sul'dam to them that can channel. Perhaps they were working towards freeing them. Cultural strife of that can take more then 17 years. Perhaps the fault of it lies in the Aiel attacking the Seanchan in this time of change, thus tipping the balance to the side that says damage must stay leashed(an outside threat is a great way to silence the "doves" of any country, as I think we've seen....). So yeah, the damane might not be something that needs Avi's actual attention. It may be something that is on it's course now, and Avi just needs to make sure the Aiel do not intervene at the wrong time and tip the Seanchan in the wrong direction.

 

However, I think one thing that Avi may need to do is intervene in Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne. Remember that it still seems likely that the Seanchan version of the prophesy is a tainted version that very well may have come straight from Ishy's lips. Rand, in his new piece of mind, may think that it is more prudent to kneel before the Crystal Throne as a way of getting Tuon on board. Afterall, his new found humility and piece of mind might say, what does it matter if he bows before her? He just needs to get her to help or not interfer in the Last Battle. I think this is a mistake that possibly only Avi can now point out to him. He should not bow to Tuon based on a bastardized version of prophecy. Now that she has traveling she may even retrieve the throne itself for Rand to bow before....so we're talking about him bowing because a likely ter'angreal that inspires worship in the empress(perhaps planted by Ishy himself as well). I do agree with others that this very well might be another instance of Ishy planning longterm. Rand can not afford to allow the Seanchan descendents to be of the mind that even the Dragon Reborn himself bowed before the empress.

 

So yeah, I think this is Avi's problem to fix, but it does involve Rand. When she returns to him she needs to advise him against bowing before the Seanchan. Perhaps taking a harder line that prevents them from taking part in the Last Battle, but an agreement that at least keeps them from attacking until it is over. This itself may offer an oppurtunity to Tuon to, with the help of Mat, realize that she needs to make some good decisions on her own. Which could bring her to the side of the Light in a good way, instead of in the mindset that even the Dragon Reborn is her subject. And as we've already seen with Perrin, likely nothing is going to bring the Seanchan to respect Randlanders more then fighting alongside them. Perhaps seeing what channeling women can do in a battle without being chained up could be a positive influence.

 

Another thing Avi needs to do is rather obvious. She needs to help the Aiel find a purpose after the Last Battle. Like I said, I am not sure what this will be. Finding the Way of the Leaf and the song may be it, but it's hard to imagine such a profound change. Perhaps the Aiel are meant to be there at Shayul Ghul when Rand attacks, and it's Avi's mission to get them to lay down thier spears and all find the song at that moment to help Rand seal the Bore the right way. This would give some explanation for why is matters that that Ogier not leave(I love Loial too, but right now it's not really seeming like some Ogiers in a battle are going to matter all that much). This kind of dramatic event I could see perhaps converting all the Aiel to the Way of the Leaf. Perhaps this is the way that things are "really" meant to go down, and the the reason most everyone seems to be dead after only 17 years is that a sealing without Avi's new direction would be a flawed sealing that leads to most dying.

 

Guess we'll find out in a year and change....so fun to speculate!

 

The world will never be what everyone wants. We all keep saying that the Seanchan must be stopped, but we forget that at the beginning of the age of legends, the one power was new to humanity - which means at some point it needs to be culled. The Seanchan are effective at this, which is why Dammane are rare in Seanchan.

 

So although we may think the world will be a better place if Channellers weren't leashed - the pattern does not agree.

 

The pattern also agrees that Rand needs to bow before the crystal thrown.

 

How can we know this? A brown would say it's not likely that the Karethingy cycle in Seanchan is accurate. A white would say that since Seanchan preserve old things with reverence, and yet in Randland all the old books are found page by page, then it's logical to assume that the Seanchan's copy is the correct one.

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The world will never be what everyone wants. We all keep saying that the Seanchan must be stopped, but we forget that at the beginning of the age of legends, the one power was new to humanity - which means at some point it needs to be culled. The Seanchan are effective at this, which is why Dammane are rare in Seanchan.

 

Not necessarily. Many people, in-world and out, believe this is so, but cyclical time only means that the overall shape of the pattern repeats itself, not that events happen exactly the same way each time. The discovery of channelling could arguably be the result of one of the Dark One's "wins", in that humanity discovers the knowledge/power that can be used to destroy reality. it follows from the whole gaining knowledge is to fall from grace mindset.

 

-- dwn

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AMAZING bit of writing that framed these couple of chapters. This will have to be the thing that prevents Rand from kneeling to the Seanchan. Also remember the 1 time we got to see Tuon, she specifically notes that Mat and others on this side don't act the same as Seanchan and she liked that. She may yet be shown the error of her empire's way of doing things and i'm thinking upon her return to Seanchan seeing the destruction and rebellion there she will seek aid in reclaiming her lands and this will lead to a serious change in Seanchan ways of doing things.

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AMAZING bit of writing that framed these couple of chapters. This will have to be the thing that prevents Rand from kneeling to the Seanchan. Also remember the 1 time we got to see Tuon, she specifically notes that Mat and others on this side don't act the same as Seanchan and she liked that. She may yet be shown the error of her empire's way of doing things and i'm thinking upon her return to Seanchan seeing the destruction and rebellion there she will seek aid in reclaiming her lands and this will lead to a serious change in Seanchan ways of doing things.

I don't know about that... I think nothing short of an a'dam around that neck is going to make her change her ways. That's indoctrination for you - just look at her ridiculous set of beliefs surrounding omens and such.

 

Granted, she feels just the same way about Mat's way of life, but seeing as the latter fits in with current-day, real-life thinking, I can't help but shake my head.

Edited by Demon_AS

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The world will never be what everyone wants. We all keep saying that the Seanchan must be stopped, but we forget that at the beginning of the age of legends, the one power was new to humanity - which means at some point it needs to be culled. The Seanchan are effective at this, which is why Dammane are rare in Seanchan.

 

So although we may think the world will be a better place if Channellers weren't leashed - the pattern does not agree.

 

The pattern also agrees that Rand needs to bow before the crystal thrown.

 

How can we know this? A brown would say it's not likely that the Karethingy cycle in Seanchan is accurate. A white would say that since Seanchan preserve old things with reverence, and yet in Randland all the old books are found page by page, then it's logical to assume that the Seanchan's copy is the correct one.

 

I will leave the culling issue be since it's really too much speculation on either part. Do channelers need to be culled? Maybe, or maybe, as said, events don't have to happen the same each turning. Do channelers need to be culled so quickly? Maybe....but there may well be a lot of turning to go before we reach us again so it might dissapear in another way. Is what you suggesting even a way that the ability to channel would be completely eliminated. Maybe, but there is still much debate on what role genetics actually plays in the ability to channel. Too much speculation.

 

However, on the matter of the Seanchan version being a corruption, I think there is little doubt. And your argument that "the Seanchan like to preserve old things" is just....bunk.

 

The inhabitants of Randland have absolutely zero stake in corrupting the prophecies by eliminating a passage that says the Dragon Reborn will bow to the crystal thrown and inserting a passage that says he will bind the daughter of the 9 moons to serve him. Why? Well I can see 2 reasons...

 

1. The prophecies of the Dragon are not something that anyone really has a stake in.

 

2. Nobody in Randland has a farkin clue what the crystal throne or the daughter of the nine moons is! How could anyone corrupt the prophecies to glorify the Dragon when they don't know what the crystal thrown(to take out) or the daughter of the nine moons(to add in) is?

 

However, on the flipside, we know at least 2 motivations for the Seanchan to corrupt the text, and they have an understanding of the terms to know what they actually mean.....

 

1. The Seanchan aren't really keen on the idea of thier all powerful empress being subservent to the Dragon. So they added a passage that fixed that.

 

2. I think this is more likely. We KNOW that Ishy had his mitts in on creating the Seanchan problem. His words in TGH(I beleive) was that he had Hawkwing send his armies across the ocean and doomed two fates. One was Hawkwing himself, and the other is happening now. I think many have assumed that the dooming was just the Seanchan throwing a wrench in the gears, but perhaps it's something even more expansive. Like what we saw in the ter'angreal.

 

I understand the argument that people treat the Seanchan too harshly. Hell, just look at the expirience Avi had. It shows that the Aiel, often thought of as very "good" are really on a knife edge of spinning into something quite "bad".

 

HOWEVER, you simply can not discount the fact that Ishy has his dirty little hands all over the Seanchan. He sent them over the ocean to, at the very least, play a foil in the Last Battle. He very likely setup the whole idea of women needing to be collared for the purpose of playing an effective foil not just on military, but idealological grounds. It is likely that he corrupted the prophecies to throw yet another wrench in allowing the prophecies of the Dragon to run thier correct course.

 

The Seanchan are not evil, but even if you want to debate the morality of how they act, it is moot when you consider the larger issue of what they are is basically a tool of Ishy to ruin things for Rand. And with Avi's expirience, and our knowledge of how Ishy thinks, I still think it possible that a lot of what Ishy has done is planning ahead for yet another turning of the wheel. There is a lot of substance to the argument of just how ill-prepared the Light would be for the next Last Battle if you let the Seanchan run the world for the entire Age.

 

By the by, from the FAQ, here is the relevant quote and then discussion of how/why the Seanchan prophecy is probably the corruption. If you want more relevant reading, look at stuff pertaining to Ishy's actions in his 40 years intervals of being free every 1,000 years. The Seanchan stink of Ishy tampering.

 

[WH: 14, What a Veil Hides, 328-329]

 

Tuon speaking: "'I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.' The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly."

 

Moiraine might be surprised to hear that, since as noted above, in [TDR: 6, The Hunt Begins, 57], Moiraine mentions that one of the Prophecies of the Dragon is that the Dragon Reborn "shall bind the nine moons to serve him", which implies the exact opposite of what the Seanchan version evidently says. The question is, which version is correct?

 

The Seanchan version of the Prophecies was actually mentioned prior to WH; Captain-General Kennar Miraj, the (now-deceased) commander of the Seanchan forces that confronted Rand in TPOD, reflected on them: "The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too - not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! - but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still" [TPOD: 24, A Time for Iron, 461].

 

So apparently at least some of the Seanchan suspect that their version is not the correct one. Miraj's opinions about the Randland versions notwithstanding, it seems more likely overall that the Seanchan version is the only one altered from the original, whether accidentally or purposefully. (Purposefully, perhaps, because the Seanchan version obviously mentions the Crystal Throne by name, and as far as we know no one in Randland proper has ever heard of it; so why would it appear in a Randland-based prophecy? [sarah Coit])

 

It's also possible, of course, that both versions are correct. Prophecies, as we've seen, rarely turn out to mean exactly what anyone thinks they do. For all we know Rand could kneel before the Throne right before he blows it up, or something. Another interesting idea is that "binding the nine moons to serve him" could refer to the Sad Bracelets and the struggle for control between the man and the woman/women holding him in them that Moggy talks about; perhaps Tuon could make Rand kneel to the Crystal Throne because of the Sad Bracelets, but would end up being controlled by Rand.

 

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The problem is that we literally only have Tuon's word for it that the Dragon must bow down before the Crystal Throne. That, of course, is the only possible interpretation she can imagine, because of the society she's been brought up in.

 

It's plausible that the Seanchan prophecies have been tampered or altered by the forces of the Dark, but is it not more plausible that she's just misinterpreting the prophecy?

 

I'd like to see it's written-down version, personally - otherwise anything is possible.

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The problem is that we literally only have Tuon's word for it that the Dragon must bow down before the Crystal Throne. That, of course, is the only possible interpretation she can imagine, because of the society she's been brought up in.

 

It's plausible that the Seanchan prophecies have been tampered or altered by the forces of the Dark, but is it not more plausible that she's just misinterpreting the prophecy?

 

I'd like to see it's written-down version, personally - otherwise anything is possible.

 

No, Tuon's word is not all we have to go on...

 

The Seanchan version of the Prophecies was actually mentioned prior to WH; Captain-General Kennar Miraj, the (now-deceased) commander of the Seanchan forces that confronted Rand in TPOD, reflected on them: "The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too - not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! - but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still" [TPOD: 24, A Time for Iron, 461].

 

Miraj knows what the "pure" form of the prophecies are(i.e, the current Seanchan version), and they are different then the current Randland version. It is not interpretation, it is different. Period.

 

When you actually look at the facts, it is almost sad in how clearly the Seanchan have been manipulated.

 

The prophecies were known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag. But they were a corrupted version, supposedly. And we know that the propechies everyone has in Randland also predate even the formation of Seanchan....and they are also corrupted, supposedly. So by thier own logic two independent versions of the prophecies are the corrupt ones, and the Seanchan version is the "pure" one! And I would like to say again, that we have neither motive nor ability for people from Randland to corrupt these prophecies. They are largely a taboo subject about the rebirth of a dreaded figure that has broke and will break the world. What do they care if he kneels to the crystal throne(oh, and by the way, what's a crystal throne?)?

 

Then Luthair(someone Ishy had ample oppurtunity to corrupt or at least influence) "consoladated" Seanchan and one of his actions was to bring a "pure" form of the prophecies. One gets the image of mass book burnings and putting scholars to death when reading that sentence. A consoladation is EXACTLY the kind of atmosphere that would provide both motive and means to eradicate the original form of the prophecies for a corrupt version. Again, we have niether means nor motive for the Randland or pre-Luthair Seanchan prophecies to be corrupted, we have both means and multiple possibile motives for the Luthair version of the prophecies to be corrupted.

 

It should be pointed out that beyond any logical deductions, it seems a clear plot insertion by RJ for Miraj to even mention in his own head that before Luthair there was a supposedly corrupted version of the prophecies. This really strikes me as an intentional inclusion to clinch the fact that the current Seanchan version is the odd man out.

 

And now, we have the result that the "pure" form of the prophecies is known to have at least one huge difference from the prophecies of Randland.

 

Like I said, it's one of those "so obvious to everyone but the brainwashed beleivers" things that it's almost sad.

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I was thinking about the impending reveal that sul'dam can learn to channel, and how Aviendha's vision of the future showed us the Raven Empire using new ter'angreal (Lightmakers) instead of the sul'dam-damane they are so well known for. Granted, our windows into the future were pretty limited in scope, and jumped around time, but it would be interesting to learn that the Seanchan evolved again, moving from a'dam--with their sul'dam (who they know can learn to channel), to death ray ter'angreal--which can be used by any soldier.

 

Of course it's entirely possible the Lightmakers augment a vast army that also includes a corps of sul'dam-damane--after all SOMEone has to make the Lightmaker weapons. Alas, we may never get to know anything concrete about that future, since Aviendha is primed to alter it.

 

I wonder if those Lightmakers are the Shocklances of the AoL.

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The impression I got from that part is that those "lightmakers" were just a merchant caravan or something along those lines traveling through the waste. Since they weren't connected to the army they wouldn't have damane, just your standard merchant guards.

Edited by f3llyn

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The answer is simple: Get Tuon (Fortuna) in a situation where she MUST channel to save her life, she will no matter how much she dislikes the idea. That should be enough to force Seanchan attitudes to change, afterall their god-like empress being a Damane isn't viable when there is no one left to replace her and the world is literally at its end.

 

I posted this in another thread, but This Aviendha thread is where all the hot Seanchan talk is so:

 

One wonders how much actual good it would do to prove Tuon can channel. I would think that Fortuona May She Live Forever, would be quickly and quietly removed as Empress by every and any of the High Blood if it is discovered she's actually marath'damane, an animal, less than a slave. They sure have a lot of rules for how you interact with those higher than yourself, but one thing is true of Seanchan's Machiavellian society, it's that if you're going to strike at someone higher than yourself, the worst thing you can do is lose. So, Fortuona, May She Live Forever, is not immune to her own society's customs and laws, she's just more protected than most from her enemies.

 

Let us not forget the intrinsic significance the damane are to the Seanchan Empire. They are all property of the throne, and are only lent out based on imperial favor. They are the crux of the Crystal Throne's domination over their entire continent. They are the reason why Seanchan is so stable now and forever. Any civil war is quickly ended by lightning and explosions. Indeed any potential civil unrest would be quickly crushed by the presence of damane. Randland could ask the Seanchan to release the damane, but the damane themselves believe they are unbelievably dangerous property, tactical nukes ready to blow. Do you think now that Traveling has been discovered that the Crystal Throne will EVER let go of their pets?

 

I don't know how RJ/BS intends to write this, because it is clear that the revelation that sul'dam can channel is where we are going. Can the revelation that the Empress herself can channel sway the Seanchan people away from a deeply ingrained cultural belief that has its roots in a time BEFORE Luthair even sailed west? I will have to rafo. I wonder if Tuon doesn't jump off the highest tower in Ebou Dar the same day she learns she is actually one of the very creatures she views as her prized trained pets.

 

Can Tuon's status as Empress, May She Live Forever, protect her from all the hungry Blood if it is revealed she's a dangerous animal? We shall see.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Tuon already knows she can channel, or at least that she has the potential to learn. I think it was in CoT or KoD that Mat tells her that she can learn to channel, and her response is something like "Ok, but that doesn't mean I have to".

As if that makes a difference haha.

 

Ah... I guess it's been too long since I read the books. Tuon certainly hasn't given it much thought, which might be an indication flat denial of the truth.

I guess Tuon--or any sul'dam would not fully admit her situation until she channeled, or at the very least was collared. Even if they accepted the theory that they could LEARN to channel, there is no real sense they are like their damane--until the a'dam is snugly around their throat.

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I just meant that it didn't take much for an Aiel clan to decide that slavery is just peachy keen in light of the gai'shain tradition.

 

Actually, it took a whole hell of a lot to get the Shaido to that point (i.e. the whole Car'a'carn debacle, and some really terrible leaders who kept violating tradition). Plus, they were already considered the dodgy Aiel clan by the time Rand appeared.

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I'm just desperately hoping that this vision is cautionary rather than really being the future. I know there are Seanchan apologists on the boards, but in my book the Seanchan winning is just a step down from the Shadow winning. I was depressed for 24 hours after reading this--it just CAN'T end that way!

 

Why not?

 

Let's be clear. I dig the Aiel: they're honorable, brave, kick-ass....all around awesome. The Seanchan....I don't thoroughly despise them as much as I did at first, having seen a lot more details about how their culture and society actually works. But I still don't dig them. That said, I can't abide slavery, of course, but there's more to them than just that; they are not totally and irretrievably evil.

 

Would I personally prefer for the Aiel to turn out great and the continent to not fall to the Seanchan? Sure.

 

In the real world, the Carthage and her allies would have preferred for Rome to not win the Punic Wars. Or for Alexander to not defeat the Persians. Or for the Hans to not win against the other tribes in early China. Or for the Aztecs to not beat the local tribes. Or for the Conquisators to not beat the Aztecs in turn. Or whatever.

 

Point is, in real life things don't always turn out well. Life ain't "fair". In the Randland world, it's very possible that the Pattern (which is neither good nor evil, and shows no favorites....it just IS) spun out the Dashain Aiel specifically so they could be forged into the modern Aiel specifically so they could help the Dragon win the Last Battle. Assuming the Last Battle goes well, the Aiel's purpose in the pattern will be finished, so it would then follow that they'll be woven out in favor of the next needed people. Does that suck for them? Sure. But ask yourself how a semi-nomadic, warrior-based society is really going to contribute to the obvious development of science, technology, and consolidation that's clearly in the works, and that's needed in order for the next Age of Legends to come to pass in a however many thousand years. I'm thinking not too much. The Seanchan, with their stability, organizational and beaurocratic expertise, focus on law and order, tenacity, and code of justice (twisted though it may be in some ways, it is still structured and, apparently, well-enforced without favoritism) are a much better force to facilitate that.

 

Remember, the Romans didn't rule Europe for over 600 years because they were great warriors. They were, but more importantly, they were great organizers, administrators, and engineers. And they were stubborn. No matter how many battles they lost (and they lost many), they kept coming back and coming back until they won. The Seanchan are like that. Frankly, I have expected the Seanchan to conquer Randland completely for a long time now. After they do, things won't stay the same under their rule forever. The notion of individual value that much of Randland seems to hold to will still exist, and gradually percolate upward through the society. Eventually, man's desire for freedom will overcome and the bad aspects of Seanchan society will fade away into something better. Notice that in the first, farthest in the future (several hundred years at least, from the look of it), visions Avi gets, they aren't Seanchan (or the Raven Empire) anymore, at least not as we know them now. They'll continue to evolve.

 

The problem with the Aiel is exactly what Avi asked: what does it mean to be Aiel with the Last Battle won and with "dragons" and "steamhorses" in the world now. The answer is very likely: nothing. Because they will have served their purpose and must evolve or perish. Most of them don't WANT to evolve past being warriors, so extinction is likely inevitable, if regretable.

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These chapters floored me.

 

Apparently, Avi lives through the Last Battle, and she and Rand get together long enough for her quadruplets to come about. I wonder what Min's viewing about that meant?

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Is it possible that the 'something odd' might stem from Aviendha doing something she would not have had she not seen this horrible future partially due to her offspring's actions? What could be odd about her viewing?

 

I think it may have to do with Avi deciding to NOT have Rand's babies after her viewing in the columns. Also, what if Aviendha convinces the Aeil to return to thier Tinker roots?

Edited by Tenesmus

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These chapters floored me.

 

Apparently, Avi lives through the Last Battle, and she and Rand get together long enough for her quadruplets to come about. I wonder what Min's viewing about that meant?

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Is it possible that the 'something odd' might stem from Aviendha doing something she would not have had she not seen this horrible future partially due to her offspring's actions? What could be odd about her viewing?

 

I think it may have to do with Avi deciding to NOT have Rand's babies after her viewing in the columns. Also, what if Aviendha convinces the Aeil to return to thier Tinker roots?

 

My take on this is that when Rand going to create Peace of Dragon or whatever he is planning as a condition for him going to Shayol Ghul, he will exclude Aiel because he likes them not because he forgets them. He basically planning to demand that all these nations and rules swear not to do something (fight among themselves) and follow his set of regulation. As he said, he has a toh to Aiel and he owes them, so he will probably think that they are the good guys, no need for rules and regulations and restrictions on them and this will leave them adrift.

Secondly, as part of preplanned confrontation with Seanchan (Tuon attacking WT at the same time as Rand and all are couple of miles before it), he will decide to bow to Tuon as part of agreement for her to follow his "Peace of Dragon" rules and restriction and invade no more. (Arad Doman is not conquired by Seanchan at Avienda's daughter time, Aiel simply attacked the visitors or merchants coming thru gateway to Arad Doman). Unfortunately it means status quo - all nations remain the same at the time of meeting, no exchange of prisoners/damane which leads to Aiel anger with Seanchan.

 

I think what Aviendha will do, she will explain to him that having Aiel to be part of Peace of Dragon is a good thing and exempting them from rules will not meet his toh.

Secondly, she will demand that Seanchan make peace with Aiel BEFORE Rand bows or does anything (and perhaps prevents Rand to giving in to Tuon in exchange for peace).

Babies are a certainty now because that part Min had foresaw and all of her visions come true.

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I highly doubt that this is what the future holds. It was to early in the series to make those kind of revalations. I don't think any sane author would essentially undermine the entire plot in that way and if they did, I believe they would at least wait until the final book to do it. Also, all Aviendha would have to do to prevent that future from happening would be to give one of her a children a different name to the ones she saw in the columns. That would instantly change the future. I think that the most disturbing aspect of that sequence was that it made me realise that unless our heroes live forever (which I doubt they will), the things they built will collapse, perhaps vey rapidly.

 

My greatest problem with the concept of the Wheel is that it guarantees that everything will go crappy again some day. It kind of makes you want to side with the DO, doesn't it? I don't know if Jesus Rand has given up on the idea of killing Shai'tan but I would really like to put down the last book knowing that the whole bloody thing was going to start up again in another couple of Ages!!!

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These chapters floored me.

 

Apparently, Avi lives through the Last Battle, and she and Rand get together long enough for her quadruplets to come about. I wonder what Min's viewing about that meant?

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Is it possible that the 'something odd' might stem from Aviendha doing something she would not have had she not seen this horrible future partially due to her offspring's actions? What could be odd about her viewing?

 

I think it may have to do with Avi deciding to NOT have Rand's babies after her viewing in the columns. Also, what if Aviendha convinces the Aeil to return to thier Tinker roots?

 

This might be a little out there, but what if the oddity of Aviendha's children is that they are (at least 3) adopted from Elayne and Min? I thought it was odd that some of them were described with non-Aiel looks, actually looking a little like Elayne and Min. Whatever happened in that future Aviendha saw, it's clear a lot of our main characters--some with half millennium lifespans, are dead too soon. Maybe Aviendha took some orphans in as half sister, or sister wife, or whatever it is she is to Elayne and Min?

 

BS is really good at creating bleak universes. Mistborn and The Stormlight Archives are both worlds that are breaking being held together by some duct tape and a prayer.

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BS is really good at creating bleak universes. Mistborn and The Stormlight Archives are both worlds that are breaking being held together by some duct tape and a prayer.

 

Inevitable. The western world is founded on the idea of Apocalypse. It's compelling drama.

 

But, in the Apocalyptic ethos, everything is required to go to pieces before the conditions have been met for the saviour to appear. The spiral trends ever downward until Chris finds Ray Charles, and then everything's all better. Or, it just starts the downward spiral over again if time is a wheel.

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I highly doubt that this is what the future holds. It was to early in the series to make those kind of revalations. I don't think any sane author would essentially undermine the entire plot in that way and if they did, I believe they would at least wait until the final book to do it. Also, all Aviendha would have to do to prevent that future from happening would be to give one of her a children a different name to the ones she saw in the columns. That would instantly change the future. I think that the most disturbing aspect of that sequence was that it made me realise that unless our heroes live forever (which I doubt they will), the things they built will collapse, perhaps vey rapidly.

 

My greatest problem with the concept of the Wheel is that it guarantees that everything will go crappy again some day. It kind of makes you want to side with the DO, doesn't it? I don't know if Jesus Rand has given up on the idea of killing Shai'tan but I would really like to put down the last book knowing that the whole bloody thing was going to start up again in another couple of Ages!!!

 

The essence of the future would not be changed though, whatever names she gave her children--unless those new names were Damane, Killed By Seanchan, Starter of War to End the Aiel, and Treaty Breaker.

 

Ugh, but who knows right? Stories that deal with time get screwy. Also the Wise Ones were quick to say that the future is not fixed, only most likely. Remember when Rand, Moiraine and Egwene first get to the Waste, they learn some possible futures that could have happened if they had not come--each that the Wise Ones had dreamed. Clearly that horrible future Aviendha is shown is her chance to change everything, and incidentally gives the Aviendha character a greater significance than hot, hotheaded, Aiel wife and Wise One link to the Aiel.

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These chapters floored me.

 

Apparently, Avi lives through the Last Battle, and she and Rand get together long enough for her quadruplets to come about. I wonder what Min's viewing about that meant?

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Is it possible that the 'something odd' might stem from Aviendha doing something she would not have had she not seen this horrible future partially due to her offspring's actions? What could be odd about her viewing?

 

I think it may have to do with Avi deciding to NOT have Rand's babies after her viewing in the columns. Also, what if Aviendha convinces the Aeil to return to thier Tinker roots?

 

This might be a little out there, but what if the oddity of Aviendha's children is that they are (at least 3) adopted from Elayne and Min? I thought it was odd that some of them were described with non-Aiel looks, actually looking a little like Elayne and Min. Whatever happened in that future Aviendha saw, it's clear a lot of our main characters--some with half millennium lifespans, are dead too soon. Maybe Aviendha took some orphans in as half sister, or sister wife, or whatever it is she is to Elayne and Min?

 

BS is really good at creating bleak universes. Mistborn and The Stormlight Archives are both worlds that are breaking being held together by some duct tape and a prayer.

The queen of Caemlyn was described as having the dragons blood, too. So I do not think that is likely. They could be Mins children though as she has no way of viewing herself she would never know if she was going to have children until it happened. And the way her and Rand are always going at it like rabbits.. it's bound to happen sooner or later.

 

This of course, implies that Min is not around to take care of them herself.

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I think RJ once said that there are commonly used contraceptive herbs in WoTland.

So the women have a choice of being on the pill.

I'm assuming Min has deliberately gone on the pill since she and Rand have had it off gazillion times to once each for Avi and Elayne.

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I think RJ once said that there are commonly used contraceptive herbs in WoTland.

So the women have a choice of being on the pill.

I'm assuming Min has deliberately gone on the pill since she and Rand have had it off gazillion times to once each for Avi and Elayne.

Yeah, it's mentioned when Rand hooks up with Elayne in Winters Heart. It's called heartleaf tea or something along those lines. Aviendha says that she's not certain if she'll drink the tea or not. Min says the same, as well, if I remember correctly, implying that she hasn't yet.

Edited by f3llyn

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