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Discuss Aviendha's Arc

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Wow. The Aiel's hatred of the Seanchan leads to the world falling to the Empire and the Aiel getting essentially wiped out. Except I don't think it's going to happen. It's made fairly clear that the Aiel not being included in the Dragon's Peace is what led to the war, and I think Aviendha will work against that this time, find a way to free the damane and march Seanchan to a better, more enlightened future.

 

What's the deal with the Illuminated Ones, the Lightmakers? That doesn't seem anything like what the Seanchan are now.

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Wow. The Aiel's hatred of the Seanchan leads to the world falling to the Empire and the Aiel getting essentially wiped out.

 

Well, Seanchan being accepted into the Light-side alliance as the slaveholders they currently are, the Dragon kneeling before the Crystal Throne and early deaths of all major characters + Tuon were the less obvious, but equally necessary contributing factors for that future. Also, the in-between state of Aiel themselves, who changed, but didn't change enough to find a new purpose.

 

What's the deal with the Illuminated Ones, the Lightmakers? That doesn't seem anything like what the Seanchan are now.

 

Seanchan having portable electricity in the future?

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I'm just desperately hoping that this vision is cautionary rather than really being the future. I know there are Seanchan apologists on the boards, but in my book the Seanchan winning is just a step down from the Shadow winning. I was depressed for 24 hours after reading this--it just CAN'T end that way!

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I'm just desperately hoping that this vision is cautionary rather than really being the future. I know there are Seanchan apologists on the boards, but in my book the Seanchan winning is just a step down from the Shadow winning. I was depressed for 24 hours after reading this--it just CAN'T end that way!

My "theory" is Nakomi is a DF of some kind who was sent (via portal stone? - see where Avi camps) to persuade Aviendha into influencing the Aiel to leaving the TFL and their old traditions and going to the Wetlands, where they could easily get into a long unwinnable scrap versus the Seanchan.

This is the GLoD's (or Moridin's) back up plan. If He can't break free now, an Aiel-Seanchan war will create conditions of chaos where He can break free later. At the least, the next time the Dragon is reborn, his People will not be around to help fight the Shadow.

However Avi has that funny Talent(s) and when she fiddled with the columns, those responded and showed her a cautionary vision of what must not be.

So, now she has a warning and she can try and find ways to avert it even though she seems to think the vision is inevitable.

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This was personally the most powerful and heart-rending chapter in the entire series that I can recall.

 

All of the other stories and plotlines in the book had such intricate lead-ins and development, this was just sort of dumped on the reader in a very forceful and twisted way. I was completely unprepared.

 

What a great passage.

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I am not sure that Aiel are supposed to return to the Waste. Their traditions would still become meaningless in such a case and knowing Seanchan, they'd still gulp up Randland eventually and lock horns with the Aiel. Rather, both the Aiel and the Seanchan need to change, IMHO.

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I am not sure that Aiel are supposed to return to the Waste. Their traditions would still become meaningless in such a case and knowing Seanchan, they'd still gulp up Randland eventually and lock horns with the Aiel. Rather, both the Aiel and the Seanchan need to change, IMHO.

I don't think the Aiel are supposed to return to the Waste but I do think they have to maintain a sense of their honour and traditions in their dealings with the Seanchan and Wetlanders.

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Agreed. The resolution needed is not them backing away from the confrontation, but rather looking to resolve it with something other than their spears. Aviendha is the perfect Aiel to face this choice--for the irony of her past, and the realities of her future.

 

There was some oddness though--where were the existing Aiel channelers in this future?

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Definitely agree that Nakomi is some sort of baddy. At first i was content on even thinking she was Graendal, but I'll settle for DF of unknown variety. Not confident in the theory, just a spider sense.

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Agreed. The resolution needed is not them backing away from the confrontation, but rather looking to resolve it with something other than their spears. Aviendha is the perfect Aiel to face this choice--for the irony of her past, and the realities of her future.

 

There was some oddness though--where were the existing Aiel channelers in this future?

 

Not just Aiel channelers but also chiefs etc.

No Rhuarc. No Amys. No Edarra.

Avi's daughter chats to Rhuarc's son and there isn't a single elderly WO (channeler/ non channeler) in sight.

You have teenagers doing the job of governing an Aiel clan just 17 years after TG?

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Yeah, this viewing was sad. I hope that it doesn't turn out this way but I tend to think this is what the future really holds. Also, it makes sense. We've already seen a large portion of the Aiel unwilling to change and accept there past. It shouldn't be a surprise that they have difficulty coming to terms with their existence after the LB.

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Implies the others died. In fact we see 'Aged Bruan' who 'survived the Last Battle'. Hopefully Aviendha will address this...

 

Actually, something significant just occured to me.

 

"The Dragon asked for peace," Tavalad said."

 

"The Dragon asked others for peace," Alvaled replied. "He excluded the Aiel."

 

"My father called Rand al'Thor a clever man and a great leader, but one who did not know what to do with the Aiel. I remember him saying that when the Car'a'carn was among us, he did not feel like one of us." Ronam shook his head. "Everyone else was planned for, but the Aiel were left adrift."

 

And then there is prophecy...

 

"He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

 

The prophecy seems clear--Rand must directly save them. Yet the failing shown in Aviendha's visions seems to be that he doesn't--save them, or do much of anything with them. This point is made time and again--the Aiel lack purpose after the Dragon. They make this war their purpose and they die because of it. Rand must save them--give them purpose, turn them from war. And Aviendha must make him do so.

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The prophecy seems clear--Rand must directly save them. Yet the failing shown in Aviendha's visions seems to be that he doesn't--save them, or do much of anything with them. This point is made time and again--the Aiel lack purpose after the Dragon. They make this war their purpose and they die because of it. Rand must save them--give them purpose, turn them from war. And Aviendha must make him do so.

 

What would Aviendha, or any of the others consider an Aiel?

 

The Jenn? The Tinkers? The Tardaad? Singers? Or, just those of a particular genetic heritage? Is being Aiel a matter of philosophy or genetics?

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it is sad if you think about it. No one survives. Mat Rand Perrin are all dead. All of the others who might have helped the Aiel against the Seanchan are gone, except the black tower. Something needs to be done about the Seanchan. Losing the last battle is just as bad as winning it for the Aiel.

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(Loooooooooong time lurker here - but I loved TOM so much I caved in and joined up - Hi, everyone!)

 

This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening. I do believe that this is a very possible future, but not one set in stone. As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Question - Are we sure that other Wise Ones have not gone back through the columns after seeing the past, and seen the future as Avi did here? This was the first thing that occurred to me, as it could have been an extra test. Maybe not all WOs have done this - but some have? Thoughts? (Apologies is this has already been addressed.)

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(Loooooooooong time lurker here - but I loved TOM so much I caved in and joined up - Hi, everyone!)

 

This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening. I do believe that this is a very possible future, but not one set in stone. As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Question - Are we sure that other Wise Ones have not gone back through the columns after seeing the past, and seen the future as Avi did here? This was the first thing that occurred to me, as it could have been an extra test. Maybe not all WOs have done this - but some have? Thoughts? (Apologies is this has already been addressed.)

 

Likely not. Other Wise Ones do not have Aviendha's particular gifts. It's likely she is the only one currently living who would be able to readjust that ter'angreal to show them anything but the past.

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This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening.

 

Disheartening, but realistic. Remember Nicola's foretelling from Book Six?

 

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

 

Even after the Dark One is defeated, there will be many battles ahead.

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This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening.

 

Disheartening, but realistic. Remember Nicola's foretelling from Book Six?

 

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

 

Even after the Dark One is defeated, there will be many battles ahead.

 

Well, disheartening because it's so believable. This is the first hint of what that foretelling can mean. It'll be wild to see Avi fly into Rand's upcoming meeting to stop his Peace-Deal.

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These chapters floored me.

 

Apparently, Avi lives through the Last Battle, and she and Rand get together long enough for her quadruplets to come about. I wonder what Min's viewing about that meant?

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Is it possible that the 'something odd' might stem from Aviendha doing something she would not have had she not seen this horrible future partially due to her offspring's actions? What could be odd about her viewing?

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Is the odd thing their 'always on' channeling? The girl Avi POVs through in the vision thinks about how she always holds Saidar. I originally thought that might be evidence that Avi's vision was more warning than prophecy, since channeling just doesn't work like that...

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Is the odd thing their 'always on' channeling? The girl Avi POVs through in the vision thinks about how she always holds Saidar. I originally thought that might be evidence that Avi's vision was more warning than prophecy, since channeling just doesn't work like that...

All the kids are always on channelers and have been, apparently since they were children.

That's unheard of.

Unless they were dunked in the Eye of the World as babies, ala Obelix, it is very odd.

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As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Or not. In another fiction(Babylon 5 tv serie) knowing the future ensured that the future happened when character tried to change it...By trying to change it he caused it. Since seeing future is just fiction we can't know for sure would it be possible to change it if we knew it ;)

Edited by tneva82

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Is the odd thing their 'always on' channeling? The girl Avi POVs through in the vision thinks about how she always holds Saidar. I originally thought that might be evidence that Avi's vision was more warning than prophecy, since channeling just doesn't work like that...

All the kids are always on channelers and have been, apparently since they were children.

That's unheard of.

Unless they were dunked in the Eye of the World as babies, ala Obelix, it is very odd.

 

Well isn't Rand always on channeler now? Or did I misunderstand some comment here? If so might be result of that.

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As mentioned, this scene was intense. However, after the initial shock wore off, I think that it cant happen. I mean, technically, it CAN happen. But looking at it from the perspective of writing, it is very smart. The end is near, the Light has gotten itself together (as far as is able) and they are ready. We know that Rand is going to at least seal the DO away again, defeat him somehow. Then this future is revealed, almost as bad as the DO winning.

 

1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??

 

2. Seriously, if it did happen, there would be outrage.

 

3. Something about it didnt seem right, the way it happened, everything just didnt really add up.

 

4. It is a masssssvie ploy to get readers to second guess everything. Which definitely worked. Now we are all terrified that this is actually what the future is going to be like. But i doubt it will really happen.

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1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??

 

Why not? Show the future but not the process that leads to it is one valid and effective way to tell a story. In Babylon 5 you were shown glimpses of what happens in the end even as early as 1st episode 1st season...

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