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Nynaeve is my favorite character fighting for the light and if she dies, I'm bound to make a bunch of self destructive decisions starting with the murder of a certain author for putting RJ's ideas to words.

Umm, just curious, what do you think of Nynaeve's ultra-loyal defense of Mat when Tuon dared to speak unfavorably of him? When I first read it I was surprised by her vigor and depth of emotion, even wondered if Nynaeve was contemplating strangling Tuon with her braid... :biggrin: I thought it was out of character (she admitted to being helpless and needing rescue), but nearly everyone else on this site attributed it to the "nobody speaks ill of the village woolhead except me" syndrome.

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Totally in character IMO, Nynaeve's always had the "I am the only one who's allowed to criticise and bash my guys" mentality. This quote from Elayne's PoV in TPOD shows it well:

 

Nynaeve’s sniff said she did not believe it. Or that she wanted them to believe she did not; she could tell you to your face that you were a blind idiot, yet let anyone else say it, and she would defend you until she went hoarse.

 

And after thanking Mat for it (really reluctantly, but still), telling an outsider that mat came to save her in Tear was not much of a problem.

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Nynaeve is my favorite character fighting for the light and if she dies, I'm bound to make a bunch of self destructive decisions starting with the murder of a certain author for putting RJ's ideas to words.

Umm, just curious, what do you think of Nynaeve's ultra-loyal defense of Mat when Tuon dared to speak unfavorably of him? When I first read it I was surprised by her vigor and depth of emotion, even wondered if Nynaeve was contemplating strangling Tuon with her braid... :biggrin: I thought it was out of character (she admitted to being helpless and needing rescue), but nearly everyone else on this site attributed it to the "nobody speaks ill of the village woolhead except me" syndrome.

 

Pretty much the same as you..

 

Well, on one hand, I kind of thought it was adorable despite my obvious hatred of Mat. On the other hand, it kind of made her look stupid and frankly, like she has Tourettes.

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Pretty much the same as you..

 

Well, on one hand, I kind of thought it was adorable despite my obvious hatred of Mat. On the other hand, it kind of made her look stupid and frankly, like she has Tourettes.

 

 

This. ^^

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I take exception to this 'cause everyone in Randland does this when they're nervous. It's not unique to Mat.

 

Fair enough. Lip licking in general annoys me. It annoys me twice as much as when Mat does it.. no idea why.

 

I got what you were trying to say. And I was saying that you're placing the blame in a vacuum. You're ignoring the depth of the world and the characters. You're ignoring the reasons Mat would do something so stupid as take the dagger from Shadar Logoth in the first place in favor of a black-and-white, Mat is to blame perspective.

 

I believe that Mat is responsible for his actions while you believe he's immune to any blame because of his upbringing... hmmm...

 

If Nynaeve or Mat dies, I'm throwing the book out of the window. Mat probably won't though ,because of the RJ's outrigger comment.

 

+1.. minus Mat dying.

 

Nynaeve is my favorite character fighting for the light and if she dies, I'm bound to make a bunch of self destructive decisions starting with the murder of a certain author for putting RJ's ideas to words.

 

As sad as I am to admit this, her situation very closely resembles Eldrene's.. assuming Lan WILL die. I hope she has better self control and doesn't go all kamikaze at the LB.

 

 

From what I can tell based on all your arguments, you just have something against the men in the book in general. I wouldn't say its because of what they do or who they are, but simply because they are male. I find this to be unfortunate, because there is so much more to the series than you will get until you can let that particular bias go... Not reading Mat's ARCs [Removed] seems a poor way to repay RJ/BS for their countless hours planning and writing such an epic tale :(.

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I don't really like GRRM that much (have read the three first books), but I keep reading because, afterall, there's a whole lot of tensions. There are plottwists and unexpected deaths everywhere, and that makes me keep reading. The style is very brutal and carries very little subtlety, but you never know what is going to happen, and you never know when. The tension of it is overwhelming.

 

The Wheel of Time lacks ALL of that. It's brilliantly written, I feel personal hatred for some characters and personal affection for some (I'd marry Nynaeve! :p), but I have no doubt they're gonna be all right. I mean, they've gone like 14 books without dying anyway.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that when Brandon says we're gonna see a lot of people die, he's talking characters like Bashere or Darlin. If Rand, Mat, Perrin, Min, Elayne, Aviendha, Egwene, Nynaeve, Tuon, Moiraine, Lan or Faile dies, I'll be very surprised. Just doesn't seem likely. Siuan and Bryne, Leane, maybe Mat's sister, Sharine etc., these are the people who're gonna die, I believe. At least Mat, Rand, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve are safe. Sadly.

 

 

As for the whole Mat thing; Mat is awesome. Seriously, stop with the Mat-hate. It distracts us from hating Egwene :p

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I take exception to this 'cause everyone in Randland does this when they're nervous. It's not unique to Mat.

 

Fair enough. Lip licking in general annoys me. It annoys me twice as much as when Mat does it.. no idea why.

 

I got what you were trying to say. And I was saying that you're placing the blame in a vacuum. You're ignoring the depth of the world and the characters. You're ignoring the reasons Mat would do something so stupid as take the dagger from Shadar Logoth in the first place in favor of a black-and-white, Mat is to blame perspective.

 

I believe that Mat is responsible for his actions while you believe he's immune to any blame because of his upbringing... hmmm...

 

If Nynaeve or Mat dies, I'm throwing the book out of the window. Mat probably won't though ,because of the RJ's outrigger comment.

 

+1.. minus Mat dying.

 

Nynaeve is my favorite character fighting for the light and if she dies, I'm bound to make a bunch of self destructive decisions starting with the murder of a certain author for putting RJ's ideas to words.

 

As sad as I am to admit this, her situation very closely resembles Eldrene's.. assuming Lan WILL die. I hope she has better self control and doesn't go all kamikaze at the LB.

 

 

From what I can tell based on all your arguments, you just have something against the men in the book in general. I wouldn't say its because of what they do or who they are, but simply because they are male. I find this to be unfortunate, because there is so much more to the series than you will get until you can let that particular bias go... Not reading Mat's ARCs [Removed] seems a poor way to repay RJ/BS for their countless hours planning and writing such an epic tale :(.

 

How'd you gather that I have some sort of bias against the men in the book?.. Could it possibly be because of the very blunt, straight to the point statement that I had made earlier regarding the subject? [Removed]

 

Anyways, the reason I dislike the men in the book is because they,'re, for the most part, all alike.. just as all the female characters are written the same with a only few distinguishing characteristics. Mat just happens to be at the top of my hit list. Furthermore, I dislike Mat not only because I hate him as a fictional person, but because his story arcs are incredibly boring. Honestly, I'd rather read Faile's rescue (which I skimmed over) than be forced to sit through Mat and his adventures. Even when it hit a climax with Moiraine's rescue, it wasn't all that exciting and I would've been just as happy would Moiraine have escaped herself, without Mat's help, and manifested out of the blue during the LB.

Edited by yoniy0
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How'd you gather that I have some sort of bias against the men in the book?.. Could it possibly be because of the very blunt, straight to the point statement that I had made earlier regarding the subject? [Removed]

 

Anyways, the reason I dislike the men in the book is because they,'re, for the most part, all alike.. just as all the female characters are written the same with a only few distinguishing characteristics. Mat just happens to be at the top of my hit list. Furthermore, I dislike Mat not only because I hate him as a fictional person, but because his story arcs are incredibly boring. Honestly, I'd rather read Faile's rescue (which I skimmed over) than be forced to sit through Mat and his adventures. Even when it hit a climax with Moiraine's rescue, it wasn't all that exciting and I would've been just as happy would Moiraine have escaped herself, without Mat's help, and manifested out of the blue during the LB.

 

 

[irrelevant]

 

Secondly, the three ta'veren could hardly be any more different. Yeah, they're all leaders and great fighters, but at least Perrin and Mat is completely different from each other in every single way. Would you mind explaining how they're alike in any way?

 

Same with Egwene and Nynaeve, for instance. Nynaeve is passionate and emotional while Egwene is cold and rational, with Elayne somewhere in the middle.

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How'd you gather that I have some sort of bias against the men in the book?.. Could it possibly be because of the very blunt, straight to the point statement that I had made earlier regarding the subject? [Removed]

 

Anyways, the reason I dislike the men in the book is because they,'re, for the most part, all alike.. just as all the female characters are written the same with a only few distinguishing characteristics. Mat just happens to be at the top of my hit list. Furthermore, I dislike Mat not only because I hate him as a fictional person, but because his story arcs are incredibly boring. Honestly, I'd rather read Faile's rescue (which I skimmed over) than be forced to sit through Mat and his adventures. Even when it hit a climax with Moiraine's rescue, it wasn't all that exciting and I would've been just as happy would Moiraine have escaped herself, without Mat's help, and manifested out of the blue during the LB.

 

 

[irrelevant]

 

Secondly, the three ta'veren could hardly be any more different. Yeah, they're all leaders and great fighters, but at least Perrin and Mat is completely different from each other in every single way. Would you mind explaining how they're alike in any way?

 

Same with Egwene and Nynaeve, for instance. Nynaeve is passionate and emotional while Egwene is cold and rational, with Elayne somewhere in the middle.

 

See above. Said they're all similar in some aspect, though with obvious distinguishing characteristics. Just as all the female characters are said to be arrogant to some level and manipulative, the male characters could be said to be arrogant AND untrusting.

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Anyways, the reason I dislike the men in the book is because they,'re, for the most part, all alike..

 

 

 

You said this. Plus, no matter, your argument doesn't add up at all. You found a couple of similarities and therefore you don't like them? Which books have you read in which no male character has any characteristics reminiscent of another? Further, have you ever met three people that have absolutely nothing in common in real life?

 

 

Arrogant? People in positions of great power? Three of which even alters existence itself with their very presence? If they were anything but arrogant, it would be stupid. It would be downright bad writing. Yet they're arrogant in different ways. Rand is a king, while Perrin likes smoking tabac with his "servants".

Untrusting? Would you prefer Rand to be trusting? "Aw, man, they put me in a box.. but then again, that was last time. Sure, Nigerian prince, you may have my social security number". They all show different levels of trust, but anything else would, again, be writing something that doesn't applies to the situation. People backstabbing everyone else at every turn, and you find it annoying that they're untrusting?

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You said this. Plus, no matter, your argument doesn't add up at all. You found a couple of similarities and therefore you don't like them? Which books have you read in which no male character has any characteristics reminiscent of another? Further, have you ever met three people that have absolutely nothing in common in real life?

 

I dislike the similarities that they share, therefore I dislike the character. What doesn't add up about that?

 

 

Arrogant? People in positions of great power? Three of which even alters existence itself with their very presence? If they were anything but arrogant, it would be stupid. It would be downright bad writing. Yet they're arrogant in different ways. Rand is a king, while Perrin likes smoking tabac with his "servants".

 

 

People hate Egwene BECAUSE she's incredibly arrogant. She's the Amyrlin Seat, higher than King or Queen, so you say she has a reason to be? Hmmm.. Just defeated that argument.

 

Untrusting? Would you prefer Rand to be trusting? "Aw, man, they put me in a box.. but then again, that was last time. Sure, Nigerian prince, you may have my social security number". They all show different levels of trust, but anything else would, again, be writing something that doesn't applies to the situation. People backstabbing everyone else at every turn, and you find it annoying that they're untrusting?

 

All male characters are unnecessarily untrusting. Take Rand for example. Towards the start of the series, I can understand why he wouldn't trust Aes Sedai with all the stories he's heard.. but even as the story progressed and with how much Moiraine had devoted herself into protecting him and his friends, he STILL couldn't find it in himself to trust her or inform him that he had been having dreams about the devil when she explicitly told him to tell her should he ever have any. Even before the Red Ajah kidnapped him, he would basically think that all Aes Sedai held malice against him.

 

Now take this annoying trait and give it to ALL the males in the series. How can someone NOT dislike this particular characteristic?

 

If you dislike the characters so much, why do you read the books?

 

[Removed] If I disliked all of them, of course there would be no reason to read the book. However, this is not the case.

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I find Rand's untrusting attitude to be perfectly rational. He had no comfort of knowing Moiraine's motives and intentions as readers do. He saw that she told him only bits and pieces of information -and even that only when it was convenient for her plans (which he could not know). What she told him - about himself - was terrible and unbelievable. She demanded absolute trust - e.g. sharing information about dreams - but gave him usually only Aes Sedai answers.

 

He trusted her to the extent but thought she wanted to manipulate him - which was true. Her manipulations were good-intentioned, but 2Rs people don't like being manipulated for any reason, for which I can't fault them at all.

 

Moiraine devoted herself to defeating the DO and Rand was a tool for her. Her "devotion to protecting them" was conditional on them playing their role. She warned them that if they were to be taken by the Shadow, she would destroy them herself. And you expect them to happily admit to her that Ba'alzamon was appearing in their dreams?

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I dont thin nyn or lan will die....lan cause that storyline could be the whole "revival of malkier" thing which would be very touching but nyn because I think she would be a major player in building the next AS shes too good at discovering ways to do things that are supposed to be impossible..healing madness anyone?? Egwene wont die this soon after becomin amyrilyn and the prophecies say that elayne min and avinedha all live. Rand is destined to live again and perrin has the whole Broken crown thing waiting. Hence I think tenobia is toast..

 

Mat and tuon live and they wont DARE kill moraine again so thom will live.

 

I think the Aiel will get hit hard. Soriela will be found out as a DF and killed by amys. Rhuarc is dead meat. I HOPE sulin doesn't die but i think she might.

 

Also i think tam might be dead as well.

 

AS for 13x13 i really want them to try and get pevara... She'll kick their butts and we should get a good look at the whole process.

 

So for those of you who want main characters to die I think you may be dissapointed as their are things pointing towards them all living.

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You said this. Plus, no matter, your argument doesn't add up at all. You found a couple of similarities and therefore you don't like them? Which books have you read in which no male character has any characteristics reminiscent of another? Further, have you ever met three people that have absolutely nothing in common in real life?

 

I dislike the similarities that they share, therefore I dislike the character. What doesn't add up about that?

 

 

Because your argument was that they are "all alike". I don't care which ones you love or which ones your hate but you cannot say that they're simply the same person with a few minor twists. That means you haven't read the books. Perrin, Mat and and Rand shares what, two characteristics that you have been able to name? (Which, frankly, are points you're not really getting. I wouldn't call Perrin for the first 11 books arrogant).

 

As I said, like whomever you want, I can't change that. But you have no sustainable foundation for your argument.

 

 

Arrogant? People in positions of great power? Three of which even alters existence itself with their very presence? If they were anything but arrogant, it would be stupid. It would be downright bad writing. Yet they're arrogant in different ways. Rand is a king, while Perrin likes smoking tabac with his "servants".

 

 

People hate Egwene BECAUSE she's incredibly arrogant. She's the Amyrlin Seat, higher than King or Queen, so you say she has a reason to be? Hmmm.. Just defeated that argument.

 

Ehm, so what? Yes, Egwene is arrogant, but she also has a right to be. She just takes it to far. Yes, Egwene has reason to be arrogant. That changes nothing. And.. you defeated the argument? You don't seem to be understanding the argument.

 

Untrusting? Would you prefer Rand to be trusting? "Aw, man, they put me in a box.. but then again, that was last time. Sure, Nigerian prince, you may have my social security number". They all show different levels of trust, but anything else would, again, be writing something that doesn't applies to the situation. People backstabbing everyone else at every turn, and you find it annoying that they're untrusting?

 

All male characters are unnecessarily untrusting. Take Rand for example. Towards the start of the series, I can understand why he wouldn't trust Aes Sedai with all the stories he's heard.. but even as the story progressed and with how much Moiraine had devoted herself into protecting him and his friends, he STILL couldn't find it in himself to trust her or inform him that he had been having dreams about the devil when she explicitly told him to tell her should he ever have any. Even before the Red Ajah kidnapped him, he would basically think that all Aes Sedai held malice against him.

 

Now take this annoying trait and give it to ALL the males in the series. How can someone NOT dislike this particular characteristic?

 

 

 

See here, you're just seeing the story from YOUR point of view. Yeah, YOU know Moiraine is good. RAND is as terrified of Moiraine as he is of Ba'alzamon. That's in fact one of the biggest themes throughout Eye of the World and at least through Dragon Reborn.

And, "think that all Aes Sedai held malice against him"? Excepting Verin, Siuan, Moiraine, Cadsuanne and our wondergirls.. exactly which Aes Sedai did/does not?

 

 

Anyway, I'm off for a week, cya people.

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