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JenniferL

Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

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Without going into whether Rand and Egwene are doing the right things re the Seals, the new leadership styles of the two are markedly different. Rand post TGS realises everyone must be respected, even if he disagrees with them. That sometimes he needs to command, but not undermine. His leadership style is everything Egwene's is not.

 

In TOM Egwene truly becomes Aes Sedai - in all the worst sense of post AOL Aes Sedai. Manipulative, dismissive of a man in command, the need to be in control, the Aes Sedai top of the tree, etc. If TGS Rand and Egwene's storylines could be about how wrong the former was and how right the latter were until they both came to the same place at the end of TGS, then IMO in TOM the two swapped right over as Rand went markedly up in my eyes, whilst all the gains Egwene made in TGS as a character fell by the wayside. Christ I even felt sorry for Gawyn, and he topped my list of non red-shirt characters I've wanted to see die the last few books.

 

Couldn't agree more with your post. The only good thing about Egwene I can say from this book was that I found her plans to tie the Wise Ones and Windfinders to the White Tower to be one of much more respect and equality than I expected. I had assumed that she would want the WT to dominate these people despite the Wise Ones, at least, having shown her their competence (and, I believe, superiority). While I think she will still want the WT to lead, she came up with a very reasonable plan that showed respect to these other groups of channelers.

 

For now it's equal but we can all guess what's the ultimate goal is. Egwene can pretend all she wants (maybe she even believes) that it will be equal but as soon as WT gets its pale fingers of death around any group of women who can channel it will start manipulating for more and more superiority. With the influence they have with the crowns, I'm sure they can get their ways from Seafolks. Wise Ones would be different, of course - that's why they are wise ones smile.gif. I'm really afraid of one thing - if after LB AS get most of the credit for victory (which most likely will be the case) my head with explode!!!

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Couldn't agree more with your post. The only good thing about Egwene I can say from this book was that I found her plans to tie the Wise Ones and Windfinders to the White Tower to be one of much more respect and equality than I expected. I had assumed that she would want the WT to dominate these people despite the Wise Ones, at least, having shown her their competence (and, I believe, superiority). While I think she will still want the WT to lead, she came up with a very reasonable plan that showed respect to these other groups of channelers.

 

Hang on a second - let's not sanctify anybody just yet.

 

The Windfinders, the Wise Ones are both arrogant, bigoted, pig-headed, stupid fools just like every other group. No better, no worse. Each only has any respect ( and only limited respect, at that ) for members of their own group. All others are less than human to them.

 

If you take an unbiased look at all of the groups and nearly all of the individuals in this series it becomes nearly impossible to identify any truly Good Guys. They've all fouled their nests, and there is not much to pick between the Dark and the Light anymore.

 

The Light still remains the better choice but only by a whisker.

 

There is Mat, he's pretty clear to read. Wise Ones might be looking down at some people but they are more servants to their people than WT has ever been. Maybe they should be called AS?

 

As for the rest, I completely agree. BTW, we people really are having bashing field day today on AS and Egwene, hah?

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The LB is literally days away. Even if Egwene DOES get to 'control" Rand, what would she do? While certainly breaking the seals seems like an outrageous plan, and she isnt wrong to be wary and even against it. She spends her time trying to control Rand and the world's leaders, disrupting his plan

 

 

Egwene's plan is silly. Rand wouldn't be scared or even convinced by a big show of force. He can jump away at any time, and the leaders wouldn't want to fight anyway. Her actions are clearly the pattern's way of gathering support for Rand, and to form the "Dragon's Peace"

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I've always liked the idea that Roedral in Murandy is Demandred. Considering Murandy's lack of response to Egwene's request... kinda lends more support to it, I think.

 

It is looking more and more likely. He's obviously not with the Borderlanders and Graendal was talking about tying some threads to Tuon now that Semirhage's dead, which suggests that he's not with the Seanchan. With one book left and all these plotlines to finish up, I can't see Shara suddenly showing up, so that rules that one out too. I think that all we're really left with is Taimandred and Murandy - and Taimandred's only in there because it refuses to die regardless of how much evidence builds up against it.

 

One of the problems I've had with the Murandy theory is how Demandred would convince the soldiers to go and attack another country when it's blatantly obvious that the Last Battle is coming and humans need to stand together. With all the mercenaries around Camelyn, however, and Elayne making a play for the Cairheinian throne, it would be plausible to convince them that Andor's a threat and hit the mercenaries in the back while they're trying to deal with the Trollocs in the city. By the time they realize they're fighting on the same side as Trollocs, the damage is already done.

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I can't say I'm a Egwene fan, though she's pretty good in a fight. Rand couldn't do much better than having an Edmond's Field channeling trifecta at the last battle :P

 

I thought their encounter was good, even if it was a bit silly for Egwene to just automatically say no to Rand. She gives him no credit whatsoever, which is fine (and possibly necessary), but where is the better idea? Rand has a unique understanding of the circumstances facing the world. That does not mean his plan is perfect, but reasons why his plan will be ineffective is what he needs, not a simple "dat's crazy!!!11!" reaction.

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I can't help but think that Tuon's intended invasion of the WT might be a laughable exercise of the Seanchan, ready to deal a death blow to AS, jumping out of gateways to find a largely empty TV with all of the AS strength gathered north of the city. But at least Tuon's full strength will be nearby, ready to join up with all of the other Lightsider forces.

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disappointed with Egwene. Rand finally comes to her and tells her what he plans and she knows better. it isn't her job to battle the DO its Rand's. she has to learn to believe in him. for her to still doubt him is sad. even with Ny's support of Rand's choice she doesn't trust him.

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I can't help but think that Tuon's intended invasion of the WT might be a laughable exercise of the Seanchan, ready to deal a death blow to AS, jumping out of gateways to find a largely empty TV with all of the AS strength gathered north of the city. But at least Tuon's full strength will be nearby, ready to join up with all of the other Lightsider forces.

You'd expect the Tower is still full of Novices, Accepted a few AS at least to oversee them. It'd be good if the Seanchan attack and an AS gets away to the big meeting. Egwene realising she doesn't have the numbers to repel them on her own, with Rand's price for committing Aiel and all his armies being she agrees to his plan.

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Minor point I haven't seen addressed: what was in the letter Rand was handed in the Tower? I don't recall it coming up in the rest of the book.

It didn't. Everyone assumes it's from Verin (I think with good reason), but we haven't seen it read.

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Minor point I haven't seen addressed: what was in the letter Rand was handed in the Tower? I don't recall it coming up in the rest of the book.

It didn't. Everyone assumes it's from Verin (I think with good reason), but we haven't seen it read.

 

It was very likely a letter from Verin regarding Mattin Stepaneos.

 

"A friend left me a secret," Rand said. "The White Tower collected Mattin Stepaneos to 'protect' him."

 

-- ToM, A Storm of Light, 507

 

-- dwn

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Wonderful book. A couple of quick thoughts regarding Rand.

 

Can Rand Therin still access the True Power? The Borderlander scene implies this when he whispers to himself that the guardians only stops the One Power. He never went inside the guardian in TGS and didn't know of the True Power i WH.

Perhaps a touch of it would instantly turn him back to the dark side so the Shadow permitts him to use it if he wants.

 

Did he become his own sa'angreal at Dragonmount? When he destroyed the shadowspawn outside Maradon he seemed far more powerful than Lews Therin ever could have been during the Age of Legends. Even the Aes Sedai shielding him at the White Tower belived he could break free of the 13 circle if he wanted to.

 

I wonder if the Mierin scene is a trap or if she really wants to repent. Perhaps she can give Rand the last clue to sealing the bore since she was the one who opened it in the first place.

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Hmmm. I'm an Egwene hater and maybe its because I entered ToM convincing myself that she wouldn't be horrible in her PoV this book while still feeling good about her from KoD and TGS, but I really still don't feel annoyed at all with her. I understand her reasons, even if she's ultimately wrong. And I think her actions will still cause good rather than harm- the Pattern wants this meeting to happen.

 

It was actually Rand who made it happen. He was counting on Egwene resisiting. He wanted her to gather all of the nations etc.. So it is more Rand's manipulation than the Pattern. Or you could say that Rand did the patterns will if you want. So in Egwene's defence, Rand wanted her to do exactly what she is doing, which will lead to something good.

 

For that, I dont mind, she did what Rand knew she would, and that she thinks its right. The thing that annoys me about the whole thing is that even though Rand did it to her, she went about it the wrong way. She gathered armies to undermine Rand's control, possibly provoking war, trying to control the Dragon Reborn. She did nothing to actually look for an alternative plan, unlike in the AoL. She just trries to stop Rand. She should be looking through Tower writings to try and find ways of sealing the DO.

 

Hmm.. Did we ever work out what effect Halima/Aran'gar's 'treatment' of Eg's headaches had on her?

 

(Yes, I know, I'm banging the Compulsion drum again.. boring, isn't it.. :myrddraal: )

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Can Rand Therin still access the True Power? The Borderlander scene implies this when he whispers to himself that the guardians only stops the One Power. He never went inside the guardian in TGS and didn't know of the True Power i WH.

Perhaps a touch of it would instantly turn him back to the dark side so the Shadow permitts him to use it if he wants.

He was talking about what could have happened had he come into contact with them pre-VOG. That he most probably would have blasted them away with the True Power and thus doomed the world or some such. I didn't get the indication that he still has access but you never know.

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Iv had enough of reading conjecture about the breaking of the seals being wrong or not..

 

You are missing the point, the pattern didn't totally unravel the first time the AS Bore into his prison, if Brandon states it's the same size as previous then the DO is not likely to cause distruction in seconds.

Even in the AoL the war of the shadow took centuries. The plan LTT made was in haste as they were losing and their key weapons were lost to the shadow. If the DO wasn't sealed then, why did he need shadowspawn armies etc if he is so powerful why not just kill everyone, is he just playing with humanity does he feed like the Aelfinn and Eelfinn ? Is this why he needs his eyes and ears to return to him before he gets info?

 

Either it's pretty inconsistent or there is a huge explanation we are all missing.

 

Basically breaking the seals won't make too much of a difference to the world as it is full of war and shadowspawn IMO just remember the AoL.

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What I find frustrating about Rand is that it doesn't occur to him to share his now fully accessible LTT knowledge as widely as possible. He is not the sword, that means that everybody else is, right? So why not give the sword the best chance? Also, why not teach people things that might make resisting the DO's influence and later re-building easier, like the seed-songs, which Rand is now bound to remember.

 

And how is it that various FS were said to go mano y mano with LTT and lose only by a narrow margin? We saw pre-integration Rand beat them handily and he had nothing like the power he displayed at Maradon. Does it mean, perhaps, that Rand is a much stronger ta'veren than LTT ever was and has some extra powers from the Pattern that LTT never did? Hm...

Edited by Jeangray

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What I find frustrating about Rand is that it doesn't occur to him to share his now fully accessible LTT knowledge as widely as possible. He is not the sword, that means that everybody else is, right? So why not give the sword the best chance? Also, why not teach people things that might make resisting the DO's influence and later re-building easier, like the seed-songs, which Rand is now bound to remember.

 

And how is it that various FS were said to go mano y mano with LTT and lose only by a narrow margin? We saw pre-integration Rand beat them handily and he had nothing like the power he displayed at Maradon. Does it mean, perhaps, that Rand is a much stronger ta'veren than LTT ever was and has some extra powers from the Pattern that LTT never did? Hm...

LTT and Rand are one and the same , i think is cloak is some kind of ter'angreal . But he is juste The dragon Reborn The first amongst all .

 

 

But to keep to the topic , Egwene is the watcher of the seal it is her job to keep them intact and if to us it is obvious that they should be broken ,we have seen numerous occasion where prophecie told us that .

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Really Egwene's position as Amyrlin has lead her directly into the trapof AS thinking. I feel like she has become the weakest character in the book (now that Perrin is the badass he should have always been.)

 

Also, I am disappointed that there was no discussion of a Grey Tower anywhere between Rand and Egwene, and really, only Nyneave gets the whole "how to serve." her discussion with Egwene seemed to have no effect. The White Tower simply is back to "protecting the White Tower because we are the hope of humanity." Really, the only good taht has come out of the White TOwer this series are the women that stay away: Moraine, Cadsuane, Nyneave, and to a lesser extent Siuane.

 

I'd like to either see them completely tempered by the Black Tower (as in a Yin Yang) or wiped out by the Seanchan.

 

Oh, and Mat wants his Horn back. I can't help but think they are going to give him a lot of trouble over it.

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I suppose the biggest thing that frustrates me is that Egwene is telling Rand that breaking the Seals is wrong but not coming up with her reasons for why or other ideas for him to debate.

Rand basically set her a challange not only in manouvering the nobles into position but he wanted the WT to work on the puzzle to come up with sound theories for dealing with the Bore.

So far Egwene hasn't bothered which in my opinion is crazy. Let's hope Moiraine asked for the knowledge required to reseal the Bore from those Eelfinn.

 

I was also a bit disappointed in Egwene's anger, I felt it was too short a confrontation.

Edited by Cazajay

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I want to see Moiraine vs. Egwene now. I wonder if it would be even better than Moiraine vs. Cad?

 

ha yeah that should be something, I don't think Moiraine will be as easily bullied as Cadsuane thinks and Moiraine knew all along that Egwene had great potential to lead the Aes Sedai.

I'm hoping Nynaeve can set aside her differences and see if Moiraine can be healed back to full strength with the help of an Asha'man of course. Suian and Leane as well need boosted back to full strength before the LB.

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Here's one thing I don't get. Egwene is having all these rulers take their armies up to this field to be there when she meets Rand. Why is it that these armies are available?

 

Rand brought Ituralde down to Tear and told him that even though he couldn't do his Super Dragon bit on a regular basis, he'd commit his forces to help him out. Why did the Tairen armies not go with Ituralde back to the Blight? I fail to see the rationale of keeping them in Tear when when there's all these people currently fighting Trollocs up in the Borderlands. Even if he wanted them for some other assault in a month's time, it's just as easy to move them to wherever from the Borderlands as it is from Tear, so why keep them in Tear?

 

In a similar vein, why are there Asha'men in the Black Tower? I get why Taim's people are there, but shouldn't the rest of them be spending more time blowing up monsters and leave the ditch digging until later?

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Egwene has been nothing short of annoying as .... she is like another said acting like rand used too. Rand has tricks up his sleeves but I hope Avi tells him to snuff the seanchen if the future is full proof. but hey at least we know what is special about her kids now.

 

Rand has plenty of time left to do some things needed let's just hope he will.

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I like when she read the letter from Darlin and thought he was in her camp. Then I re-read the letter and it seemed to say, "Now, my loyalty is the Lord Dragon but I'll listen with an open mind. But, don't expect much." He stated at least three times in the letter he was Dragonsworn and was going to live up to his oaths.

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