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We could also use a prophecy oriented thread.

 

On which note: it strikes me that people may be taking the wrong tack when thinking about the Dark Prophecies, understanding them the way the Shadow itself does—but if indeed these are Foretellings, then what's the source? The Pattern itself, right? The Pattern is the source of all Foretelling, isn't it?—so even though these ones seem to be good for the Shadow, and even though the Shadow think they predict their own victory, we should realize that they don't.

 

Time to reinterpret in light of what the Pattern itself might have been up to in giving these Foretellings.

 

More: the Shadow here seems to be making some of the same mistakes as the Light Siders in interpretation: the end of the days of the pride of the Fallen Blacksmith doesn't mean he dies; it means he's humbled. Etc. The prophecies clearly deserve another, more detailed, more sensitive look. No reason to take the Shadow at its word for interpretation, as much as we've seen the good guys misunderstand and as ambiguous as Foretellings can be and given the source of said Foretellings.

 

On which note: I want to know who the people who gave these Foretellings were and how the Shadow managed to lock away in secret everyone who was giving them.

 

I also wonder if there is a connection between them and the strange Aiel in the Blight.

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I think there is definitely a city in the blight, populated by channelers and a variety of other baddies. Its where they have been gathering all their bad dreadlords like the red veiled guys in the epilogue, which i believe are clearly aiel that have been turned when they got to the blight. probably from other sources to, i think the shadow is gonna pull out a lot more guns then the light guys think.

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Hmm...seems to me like we have an interesting, little debate here, Ms. Gray...

 

Not following you here. If the men had integrity they would have ended it themselves and wouldn't need to be hunted. They were ticking bombs who tended to kill large numbers of innocents when they exploded. Not their fault, of course, but neither can you fault those who tried to prevent such tragedies.

You also seem to miss that Seanchan hunt and kill them along with everybody else in the world. The only difference being that gentling as practiced by the AS gave the men a small chance to survive, something other cultures didn't grant them.

 

If men did as you claim, then Logain and many other Light Side Asha'man (who will be extremely valuable and important in Tarom Gai'don) should've killed themselves now. Rand himself would've never imposed the amnesty for male channelers when he founded the Black Tower and would've never sought to cleanse Saidin at any cost, like he did. Dragon or no, following your logic, Rand al'Thor should've killed himself. How would that help save the world from the Dark One, I wonder? Every person has the right to live and insanity is NO crime. I can't fault those who tried to prevent the tragedies brought by maddened male channelers, but I certainly do find fault in their brutal methods to deal with them.

 

No, I didn't miss to mention what the Seanchan do to male channelers, simply because I never said that I condone the ways of the Seanchan in general. I certainly do not accept their slavery and I also believe that what they do to female channelers is unforgivable. I only said that, IMHO, Randlanders are no better than Seanchan. They all need to learn about living in a truly free and democratic state, like the one in place during the Age of Legends.

 

It is possible for the Sitters, Keepers and Amyrlins to be weak. Just as it is possible for commoners to rise in Seanchan... yet the majority of important positions are still held by hereditary nobles.

Not that I defend the OP strength hierarchy, which is asinine, but in the end rise of individuals from the bottom to the top often depends on inborn talents which they did nothing to "earn".

 

I respectfully, but strongly disagree. Robert Jordan was very clear on this: only the most powerful Aes Sedai could aspire to being more than servants and decorative objects within the White Tower. Doesn't mean that the strongest (like a Nyneave, for instance) will always be raised as Amyrlin. But if you're not of a certain strength (like a Daigian, for instance) you'll never reach a good position of power. So, perhaps the weakest among the highest ranked can aspire to hold positions of power within the Tower, but not the weakest amongst the weak. Clear examples of this are the Kin and the Aiel Wise Ones. It's stated, several times in fact, that a Sorilea (whose strength lies in her wisdom, cleverness and cunning skills) would've never mounted to much as Aes Sedai, because of how weak she's in the Power.

 

Umm, ya, completely disagree with you here. IMHO, AS are more humanitarian than ruling classes of any Randland nation, leave alone the Seanchan. Or did you forget how the 3 AS with Mat tried to convince him to help wounded Seanchan soldiers? After they have been persecuted by Seanchan, after 2 of them have been tortured and degraded by them for months?

 

No, I haven't forgotten about Aes Sedai's passion for Healing. Either way, one good doesn't make up for 2 wrongs, IMO. Remember Tam's words about bullies to Min, when Cadsuane's ONLY resource to deal with his anger is well, to bully him? To me, that's Aes Sedai in a nutshell: never open to dialogue, always imposing their will. They never resort to reason, tolerance and equality and are always threatening to use the Power to reinforce their views and impose their will on others. And there's nothing humane, democratic, tolerant or wise about that. Third age Aes Sedai are a far cry from the democratic, benign leaders that their counterparts were during the AOL. They are ruthless dictators with the best interests of the White Tower, and not the people, at heart.

 

As for the ruling classes, they're your typical medieval-like monarchies and nobles. Not justifying them or anything, because, again, that's precisely why I said that Randlanders (in general) are no better than the Seanchan. And this goes for all governments, organizations and institutions in the West lands. Let's not forget the Whitecloaks, who IMO, may be the worst of the lot. Though, like everyone else, they are changing radically just like all others, as the world heads directly for Tarmon Gai'don, with Galad as their Lord-Commander now.

 

Yet in Avi's vision, Seanchan continue to be happy slaveholders, both of channelers and non-channelers and both Tuon and by implication Mat are out of the picture. This is one of the reasons for the war, BTW.

 

IMO, Aviendha's vision is questionable. It could be a warning instead of a true vision of the future, like Min's, for instance. And it even seems to be at odds with some of the latter's visions of glory for some characters. So, I guess it's open to interpretation and debate.

 

All in all, my point was that the "Randland" is no utopia. Nor is Seanchan or Aiel society either, for that matter. Again, they're all a far cry from what their world used to be during the Age of Legends and Aes Sedai are the biggest example of this. IMO, the lesson here is that, if they really want to be free from the Dark One and evil in general, they'll all have to change their ways radically and learn to coexist with one another, with equality and tolerance for all. Otherwise, they're not much better than the evil that they fight.

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A theory of mine seems to have been broken, though I did not expect that in this book. I believed that the trip to Shayol Ghul would be Rand, Jahar Narishma and Alivia with Rand leading. Rand was always a given, but I believe that Narishma is almost certainly wrong.

 

 

And does anyone see a trap coming from Cyndane to replace Graendal as the one to deliver pain of heart to Rand?

Edited by algspkr
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IMO, Aviendha's vision is questionable. It could be a warning instead of a true vision of the future, like Min's, for instance. And it even seems to be at odds with some of the latter's visions of glory for some characters. So, I guess it's open to interpretation and debate.

 

What contradictions does Aviendha's vision present?

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Just finished and trying to digest all of it....

 

One niggling thing for me, are the openings for Skimming different than Gateways in relation to Shadowspawn? Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought one of the ways to kill a gholam was a DeathGate.

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Anyone else think that her vision might have been tampered with?

And others' visions as well, possibly Couladin's.

 

Or all of them.

I kind of have a mental image of Wizard Peabody from Jim Butcher's Turn Coat going on here.

I've always questioned the visions in Rhuidean.

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Just finished and trying to digest all of it....

 

One niggling thing for me, are the openings for Skimming different than Gateways in relation to Shadowspawn? Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought one of the ways to kill a gholam was a DeathGate.

I'm pretty sure we didn't have any confirmed means of killing a gholam before this book; speculation included Deathgates, but as no one had put it into action on page, that was just a neat hypothesis.

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Just finished and trying to digest all of it....

 

One niggling thing for me, are the openings for Skimming different than Gateways in relation to Shadowspawn? Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought one of the ways to kill a gholam was a DeathGate.

I'm pretty sure we didn't have any confirmed means of killing a gholam before this book; speculation included Deathgates, but as no one had put it into action on page, that was just a neat hypothesis.

Works for fades and trollocs, seemed logical for the gholam.

 

Oh well, not the first time I was wrong.

 

 

All in all, a satisfying end to that thing.

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Personally I think that one of the more important scenes in this book could turn out to be the scene where Perrin stops the balefire. More than just being badass, it's the only known method of stopping something that can burn your thread from the pattern (unless I'm forgetting something, it's been a long time since I did a reread). As Egwene said, it's more than just a weave. Pet theory is now that TAR will have something to do with the final confrontation with the DO/sealing of the bore. It would be fitting for me that it does, too, as TAR has received alot of investment in this series.

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Calandor deflected balefire when Rand fought there in TDR, but all in all It was an interesting scene with future ramifications.

 

Also I've often wondered what happens if you create a gateway directly behind a person who shoots balefire at you. Does it loop thru the gateway and own him?

Edited by clu7ch
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Calandor deflected balefire when Rand fought there in TDR, but all in all It was an interesting scene with future ramifications.

 

Also I've often wondered what happens if you create a gateway directly behind a person who shoots balefire at you. Does it loop thru the gateway and own him?

 

Why do you think it would loop through the gateway?

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I feel like my posts keep getting deleted for some reason.

 

Finished up last night. ToM was a good, if a bit frustrating, read. I really can't figure which book I like better - TGS, with all its action, or ToM, with its revelations (and even more tantalizing questions). How is BS going to finish this in one more novel?

 

Perrin's arc was stale for a while but better than it has been. I found the trial both interesting and exasperating, and of course, predictable. I'm still not sure of Perrin's overall role. He feels tertiary. But he was certainly better in this book. I suppose his ownership of T'A'R will come into play. He just seems too goody goody at times. I have the superior force and channelers? I would never have submitted to a trial. Aren't the whitecloaks the most infuriatingly stupid bunch you've ever seen? If you take a poop wrong, you're named darkfriend. Whaaaa?

 

Mat was awesome, as usual. What can you say? The best character of the series.

 

New Rand also tremendous, for the little we got of him.

 

Egwene, well, I'm not a fan. Every time I start to like her she does something ridiculous, like the letter to Gawyn demanding his return. I'm glad she got a little humble pie from Rand and Perrin, however.

 

Nynavene - the greatest of the female channelers. Highly underrated. Her character arch from a slightly obnoxious, know-it-all, bossy older sister to a mature woman and impossibly powerful healer has been excellent, and is the best written of the female characters - second only to Mat overall. I can barely remember that she couldn't even channel on command for the first five books or whatever. It seems like a lifetime ago.

Edited by Axon
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Nynavene - the greatest of the female channelers. Highly underrated.

I dunno, a lot of things about Nynavene from both this book and the last book did seem kinda rushed, almost to the point of being MarySue-ish or just thrown in as a 'by the way'.

Nyn: "O hai, I just healed your madness."

Ashaman: "lol, kthxbai."

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First time poster - needed somewhere to talk about this magnificent book!!

 

I would really like to know what is going with Rand Sedai here - his transformation hasn't really been explained. He seems to have in many ways transcended mortality and become "The Light made Flesh" so to speak.

 

For example, why does he not fear 13 Aes Sedai, or going into Far Madding? Or why does Egwene think he cannot be shielded? I first thought of the True Power, but it seems he has become the antithesis of what he was after he touched the True Power. Life instead of Death. Unbridled growth instead of terrible decay. Courage rather than fear.

 

I am wondering if he has tapped into a third source of power, one of the light? The True Power for the Dark One, the One Power for the Wheel, and perhaps a third power for the Creator? Is Rand championing the Wheel or the Light? Has he become a true antithesis of our old friend Elan and gained a power to match?

 

Usually I don't like it when a character become a Mary Sue (and Rand has to a degree here) but in this case I find it fascinating.

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First time poster - needed somewhere to talk about this magnificent book!!

 

I would really like to know what is going with Rand Sedai here - his transformation hasn't really been explained. He seems to have in many ways transcended mortality and become "The Light made Flesh" so to speak.

 

For example, why does he not fear 13 Aes Sedai, or going into Far Madding? Or why does Egwene think he cannot be shielded? I first thought of the True Power, but it seems he has become the antithesis of what he was after he touched the True Power. Life instead of Death. Unbridled growth instead of terrible decay. Courage rather than fear.

 

I am wondering if he has tapped into a third source of power, one of the light? The True Power for the Dark One, the One Power for the Wheel, and perhaps a third power for the Creator? Is Rand championing the Wheel or the Light? Has he become a true antithesis of our old friend Elan and gained a power to match?

 

Usually I don't like it when a character become a Mary Sue (and Rand has to a degree here) but in this case I find it fascinating.

 

We've got Egsuene, Nysuenaeve, Esuelayne, Avsuendha, Min Farsueshaw, Persuin, and Mat Cauthsuon, so why should Rand sue'Thor be a problem?

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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The BUT?

 

personally thought the BUT was the purpose of Mat's ashenderei

 

I can accept that.

 

Didn't have the patience to read that thread. Figured that it was almost as long as the book itself, so I would just find out during my read.

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First of all, thank you all for the spoilers. Since I am still waiting for the book, the spoilers make the wait far more bearable!

 

 

Secondly I have couple of questions if anyone can answer them - who already finished the book.

 

First one is regarding Egwene and Rand meeting. Is there any indication in Rand’s POV that he planned for and used Egwene to collect all the rulers, generals and all in one place within a month? In sense that he predicted that Egwene will be opposed to his plan of breaking the seals and will react by getting all their allies together, and purposely done it since he is too busy to do the gathering himself.

 

 

Also regarding Demandred. Is there any additional and substantial hints regarding Demandred’s location and identity, enough to make an educated guess (Ex. It was easy to guess that Masaana was Danielle based on all hints in previous books)? Has it been confirmed that he had no influence on Borderlanders at all? Is Sharra ruled out or even hinted/mentioned in this book?

 

 

Finally, for the ending of the MoL. I can accept and understand sad ending where at least one and more of main and major characters dies, sacrifices himself/herself to save the world and etc. I am also OK with an ending where One Power is expected to run out more or less naturally because of Dark One’s defeat breaking the balance of pattern or of WoT or due to the nature of that final battle. I can understand where Wheel of Time is reinforced by characters mentioning that this will come again – Dark One breaking free, Dragon reborn etc etc.

What I won’t consider an acceptable ending, at least to me personally, is where Dark one is defeated and then even if all major characters survive but Seanchan continue unrepentant and end up enslaving and exterminating channels as per Aviendha’s vision. This for me is the worst ending possible! do hope that Brandon will somehow have Aviendha change this bleak future unambiguously and permanently.

 

BTW. When it says that Aviendha realized that somehow her direct descendants are at fault for creating this bleak future, can it be connected to the vision that Min had of her 4 children with Rand, where Min thinks there is something wrong with them but not sure what?

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Anyone else think that her vision might have been tampered with?

And others' visions as well, possibly Couladin's.

 

Or all of them.

I kind of have a mental image of Wizard Peabody from Jim Butcher's Turn Coat going on here.

I've always questioned the visions in Rhuidean.

couladin did not go to Rhuidean did he?

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BTW. When it says that Aviendha realized that somehow her direct descendants are at fault for creating this bleak future, can it be connected to the vision that Min had of her 4 children with Rand, where Min thinks there is something wrong with them but not sure what?

I took that more to refer to their permanent connection to the OP, even while sleeping.

A unique condition.

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Dottie, I have to say I don't think Rand need's a sa'angreal anymore. It seems like his little emo moment on dragonmount almost imparted the power of the CK in him, because he couldn't do that display of power we saw in Maradon ever previously. We saw how drained he gets, and he just basically skips away from this carnage. I Hate to make a sexual reference here - but the Choden Kal and Calandor seemed to have stretched his vah-jay-jay out enough that he can do absolutely wonderful acts without stress to himself. A POV chapter would have been nice during the events of a Storm of Light, but unfortunately, he left it up to our speculation.

 

His strength in the Power should be the same. What was amazing about Maradon was the sheer amount weaves he was handling at the same time, thousands of threads I believe. Rand has completely integrated himself with his past. He has accepted that he is Lews Therin and that Lews Therin is Rand al'Thor.

 

Lews Therin was rightly considered the greatest man of his Age. He really is that bad-ass. And Rand is him :tongue:!

Edited by Jon Paul
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Anyone else think that her vision might have been tampered with?

And others' visions as well, possibly Couladin's.

 

Or all of them.

I kind of have a mental image of Wizard Peabody from Jim Butcher's Turn Coat going on here.

I've always questioned the visions in Rhuidean.

couladin did not go to Rhuidean did he?

 

Nope, he got his dragon tattoos from Jasin Natael, gleeman to the Dragon Reborn.

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