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To the question of whether Mat is now fully developed as a character - NO. In fact hell no.

 

He's still trying to run from responsibility. His whole refusal to do anything adult with Verin's letter may end up costing Olver his life. It may end up resulting in the destruction of Caemlyn. The deaths of thousands.

 

In a sense I hope Olver does end up dying. And, the rest of it, too. That may - just may - get through Mat's shell of total childish irresponsibilty and get him to at long last grow the hell up.

 

Given how steadfastly he has clung to being Peter Pan, I aint holding my breath. My advice would be to clap your hands lest Tinker Bell die.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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I think Elayne has mostly played her part and I think we will see her death in the upcoming book though her babies will be saved.

 

 

Not that I do not appreciate the sentiments behind the idea but as I have stated in great detail many times before when discussing the issue, there is no evidence supporting the conclusion that Robert Jordan would ever kill off one of the main characters from the series. As a point of fact, the evidence strongly implies that this will never happen. We are currently thirteen books in and as it stands, Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Min, Aviendha, Moiraine, Tom and Lan are still alive; not one single fatality. Do you truly believe this is going to change overnight? That Robert Jordan saved his George R. R. Martin proclivity for the final novel? I am sorry but I am still boggled by those who think any of the main character will permanently die; it just is not going to happen.

 

By the way, while I am here, I apologize for igniting a flame war about Egwene. As those here from Theoryland might know, for whatever reason, I have a knack for it; even thought I did not even specifically mention her this time! That being said, I do think it is fair to see both Egwene and Nynaeve as living, breathing incarnations of deus ex machina; they simply do not have the vast reservoir of ancient knowledge possessed by Rand, or the memories of thousands of men possessed by Mat, or the supernatural gifts possessed by Perrin, to justify randomly discovering weaves never discovered before or re-discovering weaves not seen in centuries. I suppose you can always say this is a reflection of what the Pattern wants but that only strengthens my point (i.e., God resolving the plot). Still, I never meant to get into a huge discussion over the matter; frankly, I got over the issue more than a dozen years ago when I just accepted that this was just a contrivance I would have to ignore or get bogged down in endless recrimination and complaining.

Edited by Alleluia_Cone

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To the question of whether Mat is now fully developed as a character - NO. In fact hell no.

 

He's still trying to run from responsibility. His whole refusal to do anything adult with Verin's letter may end up costing Olver his life. It may end up resulting in the destruction of Caemlyn. The deaths of thousands.

 

In a sense I hope Olver does end up dying. And, the rest of it, too. That may - just may - get through Mat's shell of total childish irresponsibilty and get him to at long last grow the hell up.

 

Given how steadfastly he has clung to being Peter Pan, I aint holding my breath. My advice would be to clap your hands lest Tinker Bell die.

 

 

Help me here. Wasn't Band of Red Hand and Perrin's army camping outside Camelyn when Trollocs came? And if Mat had read the letter, how it would have affected Moriane's rescue?

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Help me here. Wasn't Band of Red Hand and Perrin's army camping outside Camelyn when Trollocs came? And if Mat had read the letter, how it would have affected Moriane's rescue?

 

Not sure how Mat reading the letter would have had any effect on Moiraine's rescue. It certainly would have allowed the channelers in Caemlyn to do something worthwhile with regard to Warding the Waygate, though. You know, save the city ( and maybe Olver ) by preventing the Trolloc invasion.

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To the question of whether Mat is now fully developed as a character - NO. In fact hell no.

 

He's still trying to run from responsibility. His whole refusal to do anything adult with Verin's letter may end up costing Olver his life. It may end up resulting in the destruction of Caemlyn. The deaths of thousands.

 

In a sense I hope Olver does end up dying. And, the rest of it, too. That may - just may - get through Mat's shell of total childish irresponsibilty and get him to at long last grow the hell up.

 

Given how steadfastly he has clung to being Peter Pan, I aint holding my breath. My advice would be to clap your hands lest Tinker Bell die.

 

 

Help me here. Wasn't Band of Red Hand and Perrin's army camping outside Camelyn when Trollocs came? And if Mat had read the letter, how it would have affected Moriane's rescue?

 

Yeah, they were camping outside Caemlyn, but when the city started burning, they prepared to go to its defense. Olver gets a knife to join the fight with the Trollocs too.

 

The letter told Mat that he needed to get Elayne to destroy the Waygate. Apparently, simply locking it was not enough, since the bad guys apparently have a way of opening it anyway. She was very clear that if the waygate was not destroyed before the army arrived, Caemlyn would be lost.

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..... kinda disapointed with how Mat f*cked up Verin's letter. She wasn't lying when she told him he wouldn't find it difficult to do what was instructed... didn't even involve the Horn. Kinda depressing to see Caymlen burn right after seeing it saved in KoD

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Help me here. Wasn't Band of Red Hand and Perrin's army camping outside Camelyn when Trollocs came? And if Mat had read the letter, how it would have affected Moriane's rescue?

 

Not sure how Mat reading the letter would have had any effect on Moiraine's rescue. It certainly would have allowed the channelers in Caemlyn to do something worthwhile with regard to Warding the Waygate, though. You know, save the city ( and maybe Olver ) by preventing the Trolloc invasion.

 

 

But do you think Mat would have left for tower of Ghenjei if he had known about this? He left Olver behind because he thought Olver will be safe in Camelyn. If he had learned about invasion, I think he might taken Olver with him, if he had gone to rescue Moiraine at all.

 

 

Is this what the prophecy was about, two Aes Sedai on something something?

Edited by jdbond

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have not yet read the book, but from everything i have read on here about egwene, i I can see exactly why people think she is overreacting about the rand thing, also remember egwene has been under compulsion from halima for a very long time, and no one knows exactly what she was compulsed to do or say, she has extreme badassness, and I would agree that the aes sedai are all morons up to this point, the entire institution is, read luckers thread on how they have been a total failure since the beggining, but I think Egwene has some major problems yet to take care of from all the compulsion she has been under. since becoming amyrlynn of the rebels and getting halima as her baby sitter, she has gotten more and more anti rand, she even considers imprisoning him once due to his supposed use of compulsion on the sisters who swore to him. I think she falls way short of what she could be, but is probably going to be able to cope with it eventually. especially with nynaeve as an advisor, nynaeve will notice something wrong and "heal her"/remove the compulsion.

 

 

Hold on, Egwene was under compulsion?

 

that was what "halima" was doing unless i missed something and am very far off the point, i'll have to go check it again, but halima wasn't just warding against the dreaming ability, there was compulsion involved to a small degree. very small and very insignificant at any one time, but still compulsion, and all together might be a HUGE part in the plot still.

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have not yet read the book, but from everything i have read on here about egwene, i I can see exactly why people think she is overreacting about the rand thing, also remember egwene has been under compulsion from halima for a very long time, and no one knows exactly what she was compulsed to do or say, she has extreme badassness, and I would agree that the aes sedai are all morons up to this point, the entire institution is, read luckers thread on how they have been a total failure since the beggining, but I think Egwene has some major problems yet to take care of from all the compulsion she has been under. since becoming amyrlynn of the rebels and getting halima as her baby sitter, she has gotten more and more anti rand, she even considers imprisoning him once due to his supposed use of compulsion on the sisters who swore to him. I think she falls way short of what she could be, but is probably going to be able to cope with it eventually. especially with nynaeve as an advisor, nynaeve will notice something wrong and "heal her"/remove the compulsion.

 

 

 

Hold on, Egwene was under compulsion?

 

that was what "halima" was doing unless i missed something and am very far off the point, i'll have to go check it again, but halima wasn't just warding against the dreaming ability, there was compulsion involved to a small degree. very small and very insignificant at any one time, but still compulsion, and all together might be a HUGE part in the plot still.

 

 

 

Halima is dead so any compulsion is gone with her. So what exactly this compulsion was suppose to do? You cannot compulse someone to not do nothing. You think the headaches were product of compulsion?

Edited by jdbond

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..... kinda disapointed with how Mat f*cked up Verin's letter. She wasn't lying when she told him he wouldn't find it difficult to do what was instructed... didn't even involve the Horn. Kinda depressing to see Caymlen burn right after seeing it saved in KoD

It is also somewhat Verin's fault. Sure, apparently the PAttern drove her to find Mat. But when she was waiting in that village, why didn't she just Travel to Caemlyn to give a letter to Elayne? Or why didn't she give another letter to Thom, or someone else in Mat's camp? Or why didn't she tell Egwene, or leave something in her notes? For heavens sake, why did she tell Mat it had instructions he had to follow, instead of saying it had information he might find useful?

 

It seems awfully contrived to me. Verin is built as a character who knows a ton of stuff useful to the Light. She is killed because she would have known too much if she lived. But then, she's also supposed to be good, so she leaves these letters. But some of her info has to go wasted, so we get this kind of contrived situation.

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There was likely no compulsion. Egwene learned how to counter it from Moghedien. And Aran'gar isn't shown to be skilled with the subtler forms of compulsion, which is all anyone could have dared used on Egwene. I think the point of the headaches was to interfere with her dreaming and also as a way for Halima to enter Egwene's good graces.

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..... kinda disapointed with how Mat f*cked up Verin's letter. She wasn't lying when she told him he wouldn't find it difficult to do what was instructed... didn't even involve the Horn. Kinda depressing to see Caymlen burn right after seeing it saved in KoD

 

 

 

There was a prophecy regarding Mat judging two Aes Sedai or something. He made his choice and picked Moiraine over Elayne. While it might have saved Olver's life (if he is dead), opening the letter might have had it's own unintended consequences.

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It seems awfully contrived to me. Verin is built as a character who knows a ton of stuff useful to the Light. She is killed because she would have known too much if she lived. But then, she's also supposed to be good, so she leaves these letters. But some of her info has to go wasted, so we get this kind of contrived situation.

 

That's why it doesn't pay to look too closely at the plot. If you think about it for a bit, everything going on right now in WOT is due to a contrived situation.

 

It's as fruitless for you to complain about how badly Verin handled the situation as it is fruitless for me to complain about Mat not having grown-up yet. I mean, if Mat behaved even halfway like an adult, it wouldn't have mattered what words Verin used to convey that her letter contained stuff that it was important for Mat to know.

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That's why it doesn't pay to look too closely at the plot. If you think about it for a bit, everything going on right now in WOT is due to a contrived situation.

not really. A lot of the past contrivance was based on the limits of channeling, etc. This is somewhat different.

 

It's as fruitless for you to complain about how badly Verin handled the situation as it is fruitless for me to complain about Mat not having grown-up yet. I mean, if Mat behaved even halfway like an adult, it wouldn't have mattered what words Verin used to convey that her letter contained stuff that it was important for Mat to know.

The difference is, the author has every right to make a character childish, irritating though it may be. But the plot itself needs to be coherent and able to withstand anyone digging deep into it. Most of the time, WoT succeeds in this. But with Verin's letter's, there's something off.

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That's why it doesn't pay to look too closely at the plot. If you think about it for a bit, everything going on right now in WOT is due to a contrived situation.

not really. A lot of the past contrivance was based on the limits of channeling, etc. This is somewhat different.

 

It's as fruitless for you to complain about how badly Verin handled the situation as it is fruitless for me to complain about Mat not having grown-up yet. I mean, if Mat behaved even halfway like an adult, it wouldn't have mattered what words Verin used to convey that her letter contained stuff that it was important for Mat to know.

The difference is, the author has every right to make a character childish, irritating though it may be. But the plot itself needs to be coherent and able to withstand anyone digging deep into it. Most of the time, WoT succeeds in this. But with Verin's letter's, there's something off.

 

Sorry, but I'm missing what you're trying to convey. Sure, the author can make a character childish. But, the author can also make another character blind to the childish character's aversion to doing as he's told. Especially if that results in an increased emotional impact for the reader. Good intentions get bad results every day in the real world.

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Gawyn is wearing the ter'angreal rings from the seanchan assassins on a necklace, i figure their a trophy since he killed three of their best power enhanced assassins more or less by himself, no doubt some Seanchan will see it and make a big thing of it. If he were to use them he'd have to be even more foolish than we believe him to be, given they're a death sentence to anyone using them.

 

Not sure of the timing of events yet but Perrins army might already have left Caemlyn before the Trollocs arrive, so it'll be up to the band/Mat/Moiraine to save the day. Having the Trollocs already inside the city negates alot of the usefulness of the Dragons, so i don't see them being used unless Mat - being the tactical genius he is can pull the trollocs into some kind of killing field and use them.

 

just a thought on the Broken Wolf part of the shadow prophesy, the only people we currently associate with wolves are - Perrin, Noam/boundless, Slayer(sort of) and Ituralde(isn't he called the little wolf?).

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Great Spoiler board.

 

1. Terez. Great observation about Ishamael maybe loving Lanfear. I can totally see this. I would also be very interested in seeing the exact relationship between the Dark One, Ishamael, and Shaidar Haran as well.

 

2. Olver. Without doubt, Jason was referring to the fact that Olver's has a certain "dark" aspect to his character. Sure it is natural for a boy who has seen the things he's seen and suffered to want revenge for the murder of his parents and the destruction of his life. Problem along that path lies the "Dark Side" and it may have serious implications for his future . . . we may be seeing a future Aram being made for instance unless Mat and company talks some sense into him.

 

He's also thinking about visiting the Snakes and Foxes himself to get help finding the Shaido who killed his parents and THAT is not only obvious and inevitable but horrible as well.

 

I don't think it is funny at all.

 

3. Aviendha. Wow. That was pretty sad. I mean really really sad. And also very profound.

 

If indeed the forces of the Light win and this viewing pans out, then we are forced to believe that eventually, the Seanchan conquer the entire world, leash all the channelers in the world, destroy the Aiel . . . I mean, ok, it's not the Dark One destroying all of creation, but you gotta admit it is pretty f'ing depressing.

The only reason I can think of for this to be shown is for Aviendha to gain the insight to truly save the Aiel.

 

And WTF is all that about "remnant of a remnant" being saved by Rand? If Avi's visions are true then just a generation after the Last Battle, aren't there hundreds of thousands of Aiel?

 

Quadruplets?? Huh? Did Avi go to the same Fertility doc as Octomom? Why would RJ write this in? That's just a TEENSY bit over the top yes?

 

Also . . . pretty strong implication that Rand lives after the Last Battle since he is remembered visiting his kids.

 

4. Can anyone explain just who or what the f is Nakomi? Is she real or what is this?

 

5. I think that 13x13 forcible turning to the Dark One is being practiced en mass by Taim at the Black Tower. Either that or he is killing people and replacing them with dopplegangers. I wonder if the same process is being used to make the Evil Aiel in the Epilogue?

 

6. We are obviously seeing a showdown/re-enactment of the original Lews Therin/Latrel Posae (?) showdown in the Age of Legends. Hopefully, that will be resolved in a better way.

 

7. I love the new Rand but the Jesus parallel is getting to be a teensy weensy bit heavy handed.

 

8. There is A LOT of sappy romantic hookups but I'm a romantic so not only do I not mind but I am cheering them on. We've waited almost 20 years for some of them to finally happen and it's really sweet how many of them were written. A lot of people are going to cry at Morgase and Tallanvor's wedding. I got a little misty myself.

 

9. Thhis problem with the Seanchan is a pretty big nut to crack. They are a VERY different, alien culture and getting them hammered out in the time we have is going to be really difficult. Not to mention, any society that keeps slaves and treats channelers like the Seanchan do is NOT going to leave a good taste in my mouth if they are what we have to look forward to only 3 or 4 generations after winning the "last battle" against ultimate evil.

 

I can see the Shadowspawn army razing Caemlyn and going after the White Tower only to be met by the Seanchan attacking the White Tower. Maybe that can be a start and also the fulfillment of Egwene's Seanchan dream?

 

Just a start, there's so much to talk about but those are my initial quick thoughts and questions after reading ToM.

 

And does ANYTHING define EPIC BADASS more than what Mat, Noal, and Thom did in Tower of Ghenjei? Thom just putting his hand in BOILING STEAM to get Moiraine out. Mat losing his eye, Jain Farstrider making his last stand . . . just . . . damn . . .

 

And finally reading Moiraine again after 15 years . . . just . . . speechless.

 

Dennis

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Gawyn is wearing the ter'angreal rings from the seanchan assassins on a necklace, i figure their a trophy since he killed three of their best power enhanced assassins more or less by himself, no doubt some Seanchan will see it and make a big thing of it. If he were to use them he'd have to be even more foolish than we believe him to be, given they're a death sentence to anyone using them.

 

Not sure of the timing of events yet but Perrins army might already have left Caemlyn before the Trollocs arrive, so it'll be up to the band/Mat/Moiraine to save the day. Having the Trollocs already inside the city negates alot of the usefulness of the Dragons, so i don't see them being used unless Mat - being the tactical genius he is can pull the trollocs into some kind of killing field and use them.

 

just a thought on the Broken Wolf part of the shadow prophesy, the only people we currently associate with wolves are - Perrin, Noam/boundless, Slayer(sort of) and Ituralde(isn't he called the little wolf?).

 

I also kinda thought that he picked up those rings to use later as an emergency contingency or something? Three in a row would be pretty badass though. And whose to say that the blood poisoning couldn't be Healed? I can tell you Nynaeve can do it for damn sure.

 

Dennis

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Quadruplets?? Huh? Did Avi go to the same Fertility doc as Octomom? Why would RJ write this in? That's just a TEENSY bit over the top yes?

 

IIRC current record of number of babies born at the same time in IRL is 7 or 8. Why is 4 THAT hard to believe? Rare yes but not impossible.

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3. Aviendha. Wow. That was pretty sad. I mean really really sad. And also very profound.

 

If indeed the forces of the Light win and this viewing pans out, then we are forced to believe that eventually, the Seanchan conquer the entire world, leash all the channelers in the world, destroy the Aiel . . .

 

 

Now I have a problem with that, it seems to me that the Seanchan threat is being over stated. The mainland forces just have to get their act toegether. Yes the Seanchan use women chanellers as weapons, but their main weakness is that they can't link while wearing the a'dam. All you have to do is be selfprotective enough to organise raids led by men/women circles to go after the daname holding pens. In time the Seanchan will have less and less chanelers and will be forced to either make peace of face defeat. An organised mainland with Aes Sedais Ash'Aman support shouldn't be abble to loose this one. Of course internal division can come a loong way twoards helping the Seanchan.

 

Sawa

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If Ituralde is under some form of compulsion or darkside.. would that make him broken? broken wolf?

 

I think Ituralde is probably the Broken Wolf in the dark prophecy. He's known as "the Wolf" or "Little Wolf."

 

I would have thought Perrin if not for the fact that he's already referred to as the Fallen Blacksmith.

Edited by sleepinghour

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To the question of whether Mat is now fully developed as a character - NO. In fact hell no.

It may be that you have missed the point of Mat's role at Ghenjei completely.

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1. Are there any more signs of Rands True Power access, does the fact that he used it in TGS have any repercussions in this book?

 

2. Are there any more advanced signs of the Rand-Moridin merge?

 

3. Does Moridin actually get involved, is he doing stuff or just dishing out orders?

 

4. Is Shaidar out and about or has he gone back to idle secret weapon mode?

 

Thanks everyone, this thread is great

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