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Ta'veren?

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Ok so this has been going round and round in my head for a while now. I was on my third read through of tGH and got to the bit when Siuan first spots Rand in Fal Dara and sees the glow around him and instantly recognises him as a ta'veren.

What I'm wondering is how did she know she had that Talent in the first place? Has she seen a ta'veren before? Who was it? As far as I know, that isn't answered. How do you know you've got the Talent if you've never seen a ta'veren before? Cause like Nicola only realised she had it after she saw Mat for the first time and was confused at first by what she was seeing. And Siuan on the other hand knew exactly what she was seeing, so it couldn't have been the first time.

As far as we know there are only three known ta'veren alive at this time (I think). And it's quite rare. So are there more ta'veren out there that we just don't know about?

So that set me to thinking who could Siuan have possibly seen before to know she had the Talent. When I re read New Spring before tGH I was thinking what if Lan is ta'veren. I'm not sure how possible this is but I remember reading the bit where that boy falls from a tower and it should have killed him or at least given him several broken bones, but simply walks away from it with a few bruises. Wasn't Lan in the city at the time? And I'm sure there were many more "coincidences" that happened around him. I don't have the book to hand at the moment unfortunately.

So you think it's possible or am I just clutching at straws here?

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I always assumed that Aes Sedai know everything.. JK!

 

The AS who told Nicola that she had the talent "Seeing Ta'veren", knew this by the description Nicola gave.. There's probably something written about this talent that is known in the Tower, which Siuan must have known.. So I don't think she saw a Ta'veren before, but she recognized the "symptoms" when she saw Rand..

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Hmm, yes I suppose that makes sense. I'm probably just looking too much into it. :D

But what about Lan, and do you think there are any other ta'veren running around that we don't know about?

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Or Lan is or was ta'veren for a time. He is the uncrowned king of Malkier, the Aiel have a special name for him and respect him, as shown in New Spring and other times during the series. It may be that Lan is simply a very weak ta'veren.

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Ya, but Suian didn't seem overly surprised at seeing that Rand was a ta'veren. Her reaction wasn't an "Oh, that guy's glowing. I guess I can see ta'veren." It was an "Oh, that guy's glowing. That happens when I see someone who's ta'veren." She'd obviously seen one before. Who it was hasn't been said.

 

That does lead to the question of when she found out. When her and Moiraine were figuring out which one of them should stay in the Tower and handle things there and which one should wander around the world trying to find the Dragon Reborn, it would be a safe bet to assume that the Dragon Reborn would be a ta'veren. If one of the two can see ta'veren, it would make sense to have that one be the one wandering around looking for him, so as to make identification that much easier - if a guy doesn't glow, move on to the next village.

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Rand wasn't ta'veren until either just before the series started, or just after. People aren't ta'veren all their lives. At some point he will cease being ta'veren, as will Mat and Perrin, when the pattern is through with them.

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This is a very interesting question and I'm not sure we can derive an answer for it.

The problem is that Siuan is rather young as Aes Sedai go and we don't know much, if anything, about ta'veren or possible ta'veren inside her lifetime.

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Not saying this is the absolute answer, but it's my theory. We all know that Siuan is a pretty smart cookie, we also know Aes Sedai are made to learn things from way in the past, such as Ta'veran. I believe she didn't know she could see Ta'veran. I also strongly don't believe Lan is ta'veran at all because she would have noticed something in New Spring. The reason why she knew Rand was Ta'veran when first meeting him is because he gave off a powerful aura and her knowing about ta'veran and theres probably books etc on past AS that could see ta'veran so she put the clues together, I also think about how when Logain and Elaida saw him they saw that he was, in Elaida's oppinion a very dangerous man or something along those lines, and Logain's he would shake the foundations of the world or something along those lines. They had the ability also to see Ta'veran, Nicola being young and ignorant of the effects of ta'veran and the ability to see it was just surprised because she didn't know what it was.

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^That's a good point actually.

About Logain and Elaida, I never even thought of that, maybe they can see ta'veren as well.

And yeah, Lan probably isn't. Kinda wishful thinking I suppose. He is my fave character in the books.

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People are not born ta'veren, but instead become one by the patterns needs. As such baby mat, perrin and rand would not have glowed until the time of their need approached.

 

I also seem to remember a part where I believe either loial or moiraine was telling rand about ta'veren. Told him that they are in varying degrees of strength, and last for different lengths of time. That a person can be ta'veren for a day or just to change the outcome of one key moment. I always had the impression that a ta'veren is not that rare, but it is the really strong ones that were rare. They say Rand is the most strongly ta'veren since Hawkwing, not that he was the only one since then.

 

I would think that Suian would have seen many lesser ta'veren over her time and travels.

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I am just reading EotW again, and can someoen tell me when/if perrin learns of Manetheren, I just got done with teh story and Perrin was chillin in the stables at that time inspecting for other people

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Siuan, Logain and Nicola all have the talent to 'see' ta'veren.

 

I think HighLordXanthus makes a very good point; Siuan could possibly have encountered a minor or brief ta'veren at some point in her career.

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Rand wasn't ta'veren until either just before the series started, or just after. People aren't ta'veren all their lives. At some point he will cease being ta'veren, as will Mat and Perrin, when the pattern is through with them.

 

Considering the events that lined up for Rand to be born, I beg to differ. He was ta'veren BEFORE he was born. At one point, Rand is reflecting on the various twists and turns the Pattern has made in order to accommodate things as they have been and he traces his own history back before the Aiel War, Laman cutting the tree, Aiel giving Cairhien the tree and letting them cross the waste, etc. Preparations have been made for his coming since nearly the beginning of the Age.

 

Also, I don't believe Rand will ever not be ta'veren. The most pivotal point in his life will be when he dies. If this series pulls a Harry Potter I will be SEVERELY disappointed. Therefore he will be ta'veren from birth to death.

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For most of his life there was no need to bend the pattern to change things around him. He was raising sheep.

Nobody remarked that he was lucky, or that peculiar things happened when he was around. There was no need for him to be ta'veren until either just before or just after the series starts.

 

Also, how could he be ta'veren before he's born? He can't affect people and chance around him if he doesn't even exist.

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Also, how could he be ta'veren before he's born? He can't affect people and chance around him if he doesn't even exist.

 

His thread existed within the pattern though, or at least Lews Therin's did until he was reborn, and Lews Therin was a very strong ta'veren.

 

And if this is not the reason for all of the events occurring that would lead up to Rand's birth, then it is easy enough to assume that the Wheel spun out some various minor ta'veren that affected events leading up to then so that they would turn out as they did.

 

In regards to Lan, I believe he is ta'veren, but not a strong one, and that the Talent only detects the very strong Ta'veren.

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Siuan, Logain and Nicola all have the talent to 'see' ta'veren.

 

I think HighLordXanthus makes a very good point; Siuan could possibly have encountered a minor or brief ta'veren at some point in her career.

It was probably the Murandian border lord that had a chance at unifying Murandy.

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Also, how could he be ta'veren before he's born? He can't affect people and chance around him if he doesn't even exist.

 

His thread existed within the pattern though, or at least Lews Therin's did until he was reborn, and Lews Therin was a very strong ta'veren.

 

And if this is not the reason for all of the events occurring that would lead up to Rand's birth, then it is easy enough to assume that the Wheel spun out some various minor ta'veren that affected events leading up to then so that they would turn out as they did.

 

In regards to Lan, I believe he is ta'veren, but not a strong one, and that the Talent only detects the very strong Ta'veren.

 

Why do you think Lan is a ta`veren? He hasnt done anything. There are other characters in the series who are more likely to be minor ta`veren then Lan, such as Egwene or Elayne. Not to mention, except for briefly new Spring, Lan hasn't shown any of the usual ta`vereness at all.

 

Besides, I really dont like the minor ta`veren term. Apart from Suian knowing she had the talent, there is zero evidence otherwise that it exists. All the ta`veren we know of changed the world. Not to mention, it takes away just how unique the three boys from Two Rivers are, which is something that I dont think RJ would do.

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Rand wasn't ta'veren until either just before the series started, or just after. People aren't ta'veren all their lives. At some point he will cease being ta'veren, as will Mat and Perrin, when the pattern is through with them.

Considering the events that lined up for Rand to be born, I beg to differ. He was ta'veren BEFORE he was born. At one point, Rand is reflecting on the various twists and turns the Pattern has made in order to accommodate things as they have been and he traces his own history back before the Aiel War, Laman cutting the tree, Aiel giving Cairhien the tree and letting them cross the waste, etc. Preparations have been made for his coming since nearly the beginning of the Age.

 

Also, I don't believe Rand will ever not be ta'veren. The most pivotal point in his life will be when he dies. If this series pulls a Harry Potter I will be SEVERELY disappointed. Therefore he will be ta'veren from birth to death.

Apparently he was also ta'veren before he was conceived. An impressive trick. However, bear in mind you are disagreeing with RJ, who said that the three boys only became ta'veren a few weeks before Moiraine's arrival. Lastly, given the indications of Rand's death not being the end - "to live, you must die" - I would say there is a fair chance he will cease to be ta'veren before the end of the series, or before he's completely dead (as opposed to only mostly dead).

 

 

Also, how could he be ta'veren before he's born? He can't affect people and chance around him if he doesn't even exist.

His thread existed within the pattern though, or at least Lews Therin's did until he was reborn, and Lews Therin was a very strong ta'veren.

 

And if this is not the reason for all of the events occurring that would lead up to Rand's birth, then it is easy enough to assume that the Wheel spun out some various minor ta'veren that affected events leading up to then so that they would turn out as they did.

 

In regards to Lan, I believe he is ta'veren, but not a strong one, and that the Talent only detects the very strong Ta'veren.

Why do you think Lan is a ta`veren? He hasnt done anything. There are other characters in the series who are more likely to be minor ta`veren then Lan, such as Egwene or Elayne. Not to mention, except for briefly new Spring, Lan hasn't shown any of the usual ta`vereness at all.

 

Besides, I really dont like the minor ta`veren term. Apart from Suian knowing she had the talent, there is zero evidence otherwise that it exists. All the ta`veren we know of changed the world. Not to mention, it takes away just how unique the three boys from Two Rivers are, which is something that I dont think RJ would do.

RJ did say none of the major female characters were ta'veren, so neither Elayne nor Egwene could be, but I agree there is precious little to indicate Lan is currently, or has ever been. On the subject of the only ta'veren we know of being ones who changed the world, I would say that that is because those ta'veren who only change the world in more minor ways are less likely to be well known, or be known for things other than being ta'veren. I don't think RJ is all that wedded to the boys' "uniqueness" - ta'veren is just a mechanism in his world, you become ta'veren for a while, you tweak the Pattern a bit, then when you are no longer needed you cease to be ta'veren. With TG approaching, the Pattern needed quite a lot of tweaking, so it produced three major ta'veren at once. Normally, it might only require a smaller nudge, so it produces only a weaker ta'veren. There are indications of other ta'veren between Rand and Hawkwing, and the ability to see ta'veren is supposed to be rarer than ta'veren, so I think it highly probable, all things considered, that there have been minor ta'veren in the past.

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I am just reading EotW again, and can someoen tell me when/if perrin learns of Manetheren, I just got done with teh story and Perrin was chillin in the stables at that time inspecting for other people

 

Check chapters 18/19, when the party heads for and enters Shadar Logoth.

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