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The hero's of the horn: Are they all Ta'veren?

Are the heros of the horn all Ta'veren?  

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  1. 1. Are the heros of the horn all Ta'veren?

  2. 2. Are all Ta'veren hero's of the horn?

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I'd say you could easily be a hero without being ta'veren. Heroes do cool stuff, Ta'veren change the course of history (the pattern). Birgette and Gaidal may have gone on hundreds of adventures in one lifetime without really altering the course of events for the whole world. Indeed Birgette's reluctance to lead Elayne's troops, seems to back this up. If she was ta'veren in past lives, one would think she MUST have been a great leader at some point...yet she always sees herself as a regular gal who just happens to be able to shoot a bow very, very well. Ta'veren are movers and shakers of the pattern...it stands to reason then that at some point they must have been able to influence large groups of people, if not nations themselves, but we see no evidence of this in Birgette.


And for Hawkwing...Who knows really? He called Mat hornsounder and Perrin bannerman, but who is he? He wasn't always Hawkwing so why do they refer to him so? Why do they call Rand Lews Therin? They both are very strong Ta'veren and have both been spun out countless times, so why do they refer to them based on their last known incarnation? Maybe that's all they know at the time...and maybe that's why Hawkwing doesn't refer to Mat and Perrin by name, but by position. Perhaps the last time Mat and Perrin were around was an age before Hawkwing.


I think in this case if you want to make an argument about Mat and/or Perrin it should be important to keep in mind that this event happened in book 2. I know RJ had "The Ending" prepared from day 1, and I love the guy. But If you don't think he made some adjustments since than you need to reread the series. It may very well have been that he just hadn't fully figured out at that point how he was going to include the two of them.

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If Mat and Perrin were heroes of the horn, Artur Hawking will recognize them. He didn't, so they are out. Also Dragon surely is one of the Heroes of horn. Alive or dead, he will always be there when horn is blown so heroes will always follow him.


Where did he say that he didnt recognise them? Just because there was no acknowledgement doesn't really mean much. Not to mention, notice how he specifically refered to Hurin. Not the guy with the actual horn or the other one carrying a banner. He specifically referred to Hurin as maybe becoming a Hero. Then theres RJ's quote...


Gender/soul rebirth he said is best illustrated by Mat and Birgitte. But he then said that there was more to it than that. Not sure what he meant exactly. Probably the point.


To me, thats basically implying heavily that Mat is a Hero.




He called Mat trumpeter and Perrin banner man. I think that is as good as saying you guys are nobody. And not one person beside Hawking even acknowledged them. Also Hurrin was only refereed as such because Rand asked him not to come and Hurin's reply wowed Artur Hawking. Mat commented on how few the total hero count was and Hawking said that it takes more than bravery to become hero of Horn. Unless this is some kind of unbelievable thriller, that alone made is clear that Mat and Perrin had nothing to do with Horn. Them being Tave'reen has more to do with them being friend of Rand and less to do with their past life or anything else.


RJ's quote might have something to do with Mat being descendant of Mantherens. Old blood is very strong in him. My 2 cents;)



I doubt Hawkwing knew their names either. It could be as simple as that. Mat and Perrin could possibly be heroes that Hawkwing simply does not recognize due to them having different bodies/faces/etc. Hawkwing called Rand LTT because he's so strongly ta'vern that he must be the Dragon. I doubt there is a ta'vern stronger than the Dragon, during any age.

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I have to go with all ta'veren are heroes but not all heroes are ta'veren. Heroes are low level corrective measures by pattern. Ta'veren are high level corrective measures that bend the will of the pattern around them and vise verse. I make sense with great "spirit" people can become heroes. When there is great need heroes are spit out as Ta'veren.

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Here are some quotes to support some of what has been said.



Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.


RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.


So one is never born Ta’veren. The Wheel makes you Ta’veren when it needs you to be.


Aside: Rand, Mat and Perrin become Ta’veren just before Moiraine appears.



The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Norcross Cultural Arts Center, Atlanta 13 November 2009 - Yellowbeard reporting

I did get to ask a question Terez put me up to. His answer was no, Heroes of the Horn are not always ta'veren at all in their lifetimes when spun out. Sometimes, they even live normal lives and don't do anything extraordinary, like they sometimes spend their lives as farmers, etc.


Heroes aren’t always working. Sometimes they get to live normal (non-heroic, non Ta’veren) lives.



The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)


The Dragon isn’t always working. Sometimes he gets to live a normal (non-dying-to-save-the-world) life.


Aside: The Dragon is a Hero.



One is never born a Ta’veren. The Wheel ultimately decides who will be Ta’veren, when and for how long. So Heroes (including the Dragon) are not inherently Ta’veren. When dead, none of the Heroes are Ta’veren. Heroes are just souls that are bound to the Wheel to serve as corrective mechanisms when the need arises; something that they can do without being Ta’veren. And sometimes, they are reborn when they aren’t needed and they don’t have to do anything.


Here’s an interesting thought: Rand dies on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Mat blows the horn…

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There is evidence that Rand, Perrin and Mat have not been the only ta'veren in their lifetime. Suian says she has a Talent for seeing ta'veren. But Being she was cloistered in the WT until after they were born how would she know she has that talent if she never saw a ta'veren before?


RJ said that ta'veren are not born. And they are only ta'veren for a limited amount of time. It's also been implied not all ta'veren can shift the worlds on its foundations the way the three are.


I believe the three didn't start to become ta'veren until after Shadair Logoth. And after TG it can be argued they won't be ta'veren any longer, they'll have fulfilled their purpose.


Where does it imply that ta`veren dont shift the world? We know of five of them, and all those five had drastically changed Randland. Thats their job; the Pattern wouldnt need a ta`veren if only a town needed to be corrected. As for Siaun, its possible that she saw another ta`veren previously, but that doesnt really nullify my argument that all ta`veren are heroes of the horn, since theres 100+ heroes. And I believe RJ said that those three became ta`veren just before Moiraine arrived in Two Rivers.


Some ta'veren shift the world, some don't. Some are only ta'veren for a short period of timem a few months maybe. And their purposes don't need to be earth shattering. In Verin's conversation with Perrin in tSR at the Lewin farm she implies that ta'veren are common enough to be expendable.

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In Verin's conversation with Perrin in tSR at the Lewin farm she implies that ta'veren are common enough to be expendable.



How does she imply that they are expendable?

Edited by nophone
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Some ta'veren shift the world, some don't. Some are only ta'veren for a short period of timem a few months maybe. And their purposes don't need to be earth shattering. In Verin's conversation with Perrin in tSR at the Lewin farm she implies that ta'veren are common enough to be expendable.


I just finished re-reading TSR, and I dont actually remember such a conversation. Its true that some people have considered Mat and Perrin to be expendable, but thats more in relation to Rand then anything else. And even then its always been like, "well, Mat is a ta`veren soo..." In any case, thats more a case of Verins moral ambiguity then any actual answer. After all, if Tairen High Lords can attempt to manipulate the Dragon Reborn, then a darkfriend Aes Sedai considering Mat and Perrin to be expendable is hardly surprising.


In any case, I would like to hear of these ta`veren who dont shift the world, because as far as I can remember there has not been one mention of any minor ta`veren. Only five have been mentioned, and all five did something. No one has ever said, "Well, that Aes Sedai a few decades ago was a minor ta`veren." In actuality, more False Dragons then ta`veren have been spoken about, and there was a big deal made about how rare they are. Yet ta`veren are apparently common place now.

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