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The hero's of the horn: Are they all Ta'veren?

Are the heros of the horn all Ta'veren?  

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  1. 1. Are the heros of the horn all Ta'veren?

  2. 2. Are all Ta'veren hero's of the horn?



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I was always under the assumption that all of the hero's of the horn were Ta'veren, but in a recent discussion it came to debate that they were or weren't infact Ta'veren. It seems that many Ta'veren are bound to the horn, Hawkwing, and The Dragon himself, but is it true that the rest are as well?

Edited by nophone

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i think a lot of them are ta'verene for a certain amount of time during their incarnations, but not all the time, perhaps not at all during some incarnations.

So, NO, the heros themselves are not ta'verene but the likelyhood for them to be is greater, i think ^^

(e.g. Birgitte in this age, for lack of any other comparison except Hawkwing)

 

on a side note: how do we know that the DR is bound to the Horn? Yes, he is spun out again and again like the heroes, but does that mean he is one of them?

Edited by Sartyva

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i think a lot of them are ta'verene for a certain amount of time during their incarnations, but not all the time, perhaps not at all during some incarnations.

So, NO, the heros themselves are not ta'verene but the likelyhood for them to be is greater, i think ^^

(e.g. Birgitte in this age, for lack of any other comparison except Hawkwing)

 

on a side note: how do we know that the DR is bound to the Horn? Yes, he is spun out again and again like the heroes, but does that mean he is one of them?

 

Actually I thought of that while I was writing this... It doesn't seem possible. I feel like it was mentioned some how or speculated on in book 3 or before. But how is it possible for DR to be bound to the horn, when he is required to be present when it is used, along with the dragon banner? They said anyone could use the horn, but clearly that person must be approved by the corporate sponsorship of the dragon himself.

 

Exo Facto: If he is bound to the horn, it is in a paradoxical way, basically he hangs out in TaR while unborn, and parties with the other Hero's.

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I don't think so. You've got a bunch of people like Lan, Gawyn, Galad, Noal, Olver, etc who are Heroes who are out in the world today and have been hanging out around people like Siuan and Nicola who can see ta'veren and don't glow with the ta'veren light that Rand, Mat and Perrin do.

 

I don't see why the Heroes couldn't be be ta'veren from time to time in some of their various lives, but it's not a necessity.

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To my understanding, Jordan said something in a QnA to the effect of people not being -born- ta'veren, that they become such over the course of their lives. Unless they're some kind of special exception, Heroes are born out from the Wheel again and again, and it seems to me that they might not necessarily become ta'veren.

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i think a lot of them are ta'verene for a certain amount of time during their incarnations, but not all the time, perhaps not at all during some incarnations.

So, NO, the heros themselves are not ta'verene but the likelyhood for them to be is greater, i think ^^

(e.g. Birgitte in this age, for lack of any other comparison except Hawkwing)

 

on a side note: how do we know that the DR is bound to the Horn? Yes, he is spun out again and again like the heroes, but does that mean he is one of them?

 

Actually I thought of that while I was writing this... It doesn't seem possible. I feel like it was mentioned some how or speculated on in book 3 or before. But how is it possible for DR to be bound to the horn, when he is required to be present when it is used, along with the dragon banner? They said anyone could use the horn, but clearly that person must be approved by the corporate sponsorship of the dragon himself.

 

Exo Facto: If he is bound to the horn, it is in a paradoxical way, basically he hangs out in TaR while unborn, and parties with the other Hero's.

Didn't Hawkwing tell Rand that he was one of the heroes is tGH?

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Look at it this way, the Horn can be blown at any time, whenever it is blown it will summon the Heroes of the Horn. Hawking implies that Rand is one of them in tGH, I believe. So, in an age where Rand was not spun out he would be summoned by the blowing of the Horn. However, if the Horn is blown simply for glory, or for a frivolous reason, there are supposedly dire consequences. I imagine the Heroes look at you, shake their heads, give you the "shame on you finger" and then your eyes are burned out of your head and you die, or something like that. It's like looking at the Arc of the Covenant in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Arc.

 

As to the question of the thread, I imagine that most of the Heroes are ta'veren, but again it's only for certain parts of their lives, and not all of them are necessarily as strongly ta'veren as others. Bridgette in the current world is a special case as she wasn't spun out normally.

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Look at it this way, the Horn can be blown at any time, whenever it is blown it will summon the Heroes of the Horn. Hawking implies that Rand is one of them in tGH, I believe. So, in an age where Rand was not spun out he would be summoned by the blowing of the Horn. However, if the Horn is blown simply for glory, or for a frivolous reason, there are supposedly dire consequences. I imagine the Heroes look at you, shake their heads, give you the "shame on you finger" and then your eyes are burned out of your head and you die, or something like that. It's like looking at the Arc of the Covenant in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Arc.

 

As to the question of the thread, I imagine that most of the Heroes are ta'veren, but again it's only for certain parts of their lives, and not all of them are necessarily as strongly ta'veren as others. Bridgette in the current world is a special case as she wasn't spun out normally.

 

Right, I meant to suggest that they were all Taveren at some point in their lives during every life they had lived.

 

Again though, if LT is meant to be present anytime the horn is blown as suggested in tGH... isn't the idea that it be blown at any other time in history (when LT reborn is not alive) paradoxial? Or would LT show up and 'approve this blowing of the horn' as having not been done for glory. hmm

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It's just a horn, it can be blown during any age. Remember how Hawkwing sort of suggests that it was okay for them to blow the Horn when they did by going through that checklist? How the Banner is needed to lead them into Battle? I imagine if you don't have all the necessary items for the weave of that moment to be set to allow the heroes to advance, then well, you're SOL.

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It's just a horn, it can be blown during any age. Remember how Hawkwing sort of suggests that it was okay for them to blow the Horn when they did by going through that checklist? How the Banner is needed to lead them into Battle? I imagine if you don't have all the necessary items for the weave of that moment to be set to allow the heroes to advance, then well, you're SOL.

 

Right...

 

"Lews Therin is here... Check... whats up dude?" - "i'm not lews therin" - "yeah? you sure? well whatever"

"Got the banner? ah there it is... check."

"on a quest for glory? no...check."

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Why a paradox? LTT shall be reborn, as Rand, to fight the Shadow. And he is Reborn often during a Turning. All the times to fight the Shadow. But in between, when minor events happens, the Horn can be used to help the day, and then can Rand/LTT/whatever the last incarnation, and tge other Heroes, answer to the call. You see it backward, Nophone.

 

And I loved the checklist^^

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i think a lot of them are ta'verene for a certain amount of time during their incarnations, but not all the time, perhaps not at all during some incarnations.

So, NO, the heros themselves are not ta'verene but the likelyhood for them to be is greater, i think ^^

(e.g. Birgitte in this age, for lack of any other comparison except Hawkwing)

 

 

This sums up my thoughts pretty well. I think they are ta'vern at some point, whenever the pattern deems it so. As I've understood it from the books, you are not born ta'vern rather, you are ta'vern when the need arises and at one point or another the pattern sought out these men and women above all others of their time and thus became bound by the Horn of Valere.

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I remember reading in an interview that one becomes a Hero of the Horn through acts of sacrifice, and yet it is said that Heroes are spun out to become legends, and Artur Hawkwing was both a Hero and Ta'veren.

 

I wonder if every Hero was a Ta'veren that made great sacrifices for the Pattern, but not every Ta'veren does that, meaning some Ta'verem become Heroes, but not all, but all Heroes were Ta'veren? The kind of thing where the Wheel grants someone Ta'verenism, which means their path is dangerous, and if their deeds mean they paid a price for it they are bound to the Horn as that is the kind of personality the Pattern needs as its corrective mechanisms. If the Ta'veren didnt make a great sacrifice, they are not bound, either meaning they didnt do their Ta'veren task or they did it without needing sacrifice, meaning they will have earned freedom if they want it because they didnt even need to pay a price.

 

Or I am reading it too much. But what I do think is that every Hero was a Ta'veren, and that the Horn binds the "best" Ta'veren-those willing to sacrifice for the greater good-so that in the Last Battle, the Horn can be used to defeat a Dark Dragon through the combined Ta'verenism of all of the bound Heroes, and then when the Dark Dragon dies he would then be summoned by the Horn again because he is already bound to it, and Mats ultimate role if it came to it would be to lead that attack against Rand.

 

I have just realised something. Each of the three Ta'veren in the story, their Ta'veren strength coincides with their willingness to sacrifice. Rand, nuff said. Mat, pretty much the same, but I think the dagger incedent involved something as well. Perrin for a long time was unwilling to sacrifice. His Ta'veren level never was portrayed as strong as the others. Am I seeing things?

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I believe all ta`veren are heroes of the horn, but not all Heroes are ta`veren. If we look at the current ta`veren we know about, Hawking and Rand/Lews Therin are both Heroes, its been implied by RJ that Mat is also one. Therefore, it makes sense for Perrin to be one as well. Birgitte however, is currently not, and she has never mentioned being one before. Thats not to say she hasn't ever, but rather its not a constant thing.

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I believe all ta`veren are heroes of the horn, but not all Heroes are ta`veren. If we look at the current ta`veren we know about, Hawking and Rand/Lews Therin are both Heroes, its been implied by RJ that Mat is also one. Therefore, it makes sense for Perrin to be one as well. Birgitte however, is currently not, and she has never mentioned being one before. Thats not to say she hasn't ever, but rather its not a constant thing.

 

Birgitte and Gaidal Cain have countless stories of their great valor and love told through out history, just ask Thom Merillin. Her Ta'veren-ness and/or possibly her horn-boundedness may be askew because of being ripped out of Tar, that's a point frequently raised.. The rules are askew for her right now... so sometimes it's hard to tell if she's a good example to use or a bad one.

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Being a Hero and being ta'veren are not connected. Oh, I'm sure there's a higher correlation, but non-Heros can be ta'veren, and Heros may not be ta'veren. The Forsaken seem completely unfamiliar with the concept, and the type of luck Rand al'Thor has goes above and beyond what they were accustomed to with Lews Therin, who was lucky, but not like Rand is.

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You've got a bunch of people like Lan, Gawyn, Galad, Noal, Olver, etc who are Heroes

 

and you think these people are Heroes because?

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Heroes are not Taveren. Alot of them are, but it is not a prerequesite.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

 

 

Mato: OK, just a heads up, I'm from Theoryland so you know I've got a few questions I'm going to have to ask you...

Sanderson: Oh boy...I'm going to have to think about these, aren't I?

Mato: ~laughs~ OK... Heroes of the Horn, are they corrective mechanisms by themselves, or are they corrective mechanisms by virtue of being ta'veren?

Sanderson: Heroes are not always ta'veren. So, yes, they are corrective mechanisms by themselves.

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Heroes are not Taveren. Alot of them are, but it is not a prerequesite.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

 

 

Mato: OK, just a heads up, I'm from Theoryland so you know I've got a few questions I'm going to have to ask you...

Sanderson: Oh boy...I'm going to have to think about these, aren't I?

Mato: ~laughs~ OK... Heroes of the Horn, are they corrective mechanisms by themselves, or are they corrective mechanisms by virtue of being ta'veren?

Sanderson: Heroes are not always ta'veren. So, yes, they are corrective mechanisms by themselves.

 

wow, I am very impressed. Thank you.

 

that said, i'm gonna go with... Lan get's into the horn :P

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Heroes are not Taveren. Alot of them are, but it is not a prerequesite.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

 

 

Mato: OK, just a heads up, I'm from Theoryland so you know I've got a few questions I'm going to have to ask you...

Sanderson: Oh boy...I'm going to have to think about these, aren't I?

Mato: ~laughs~ OK... Heroes of the Horn, are they corrective mechanisms by themselves, or are they corrective mechanisms by virtue of being ta'veren?

Sanderson: Heroes are not always ta'veren. So, yes, they are corrective mechanisms by themselves.

 

The context is unclear, RJ said the Dragon soul isnt always born with Dragon status, I think Brandon was saying that Heroes are not always reborn as Heroes. But the heroes are corrective mechanisms, which is the same description as Ta'veren. What I think is that all Heroes have been Ta'veren before, but are not always Ta'veren, just like not all of Rands rebirths will necessarily have been Dragon icons.

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I believe all ta`veren are heroes of the horn, but not all Heroes are ta`veren. If we look at the current ta`veren we know about, Hawking and Rand/Lews Therin are both Heroes, its been implied by RJ that Mat is also one. Therefore, it makes sense for Perrin to be one as well. Birgitte however, is currently not, and she has never mentioned being one before. Thats not to say she hasn't ever, but rather its not a constant thing.

There is evidence that Rand, Perrin and Mat have not been the only ta'veren in their lifetime. Suian says she has a Talent for seeing ta'veren. But Being she was cloistered in the WT until after they were born how would she know she has that talent if she never saw a ta'veren before?

 

RJ said that ta'veren are not born. And they are only ta'veren for a limited amount of time. It's also been implied not all ta'veren can shift the worlds on its foundations the way the three are.

 

I believe the three didn't start to become ta'veren until after Shadair Logoth. And after TG it can be argued they won't be ta'veren any longer, they'll have fulfilled their purpose.

 

When Loial and Rand met the first time and Loial was explaining the concept to Rand he said people are born, more or less, to live within the hand they've been dealt. They can make minor changes in their life but not big changes.

 

Rand then comment that if he decided to live in Emonds Field instead of his fathers farm that would be a minor change, but if he wanted to be a king that is a big change. Loial agreed.

 

People who went of and did things their peers growing up thought impossible could be ta'veren for a time. Such as a cobbler's apprentice becoming a filthy rich merchant or a farmer who ran away and became a stable boy who joins the army and becomes second in command of the king's elite troops could have gotten where they were by being ta'veren for a time.

 

Remember Perrin and Mat (known ta'veren themselves) were overlooked by AS due to Rand which also shows while ta'veren are uncommon, they're not super rare.

 

I think some of the heroes became heroes through sheer badassery. Bridget has said, many times, she was never much of a leader, a trait we have often seen in ta'veren and a clue for AS when they go looking for ta'veren. But I'm sure in a few of her lives it has been her and Gaidal, alone, surrounded by hundreds, if not thousands, of enemies. But the two never being afraid of death would look at their foes and say, "Bring it."

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If Mat and Perrin were heroes of the horn, Artur Hawking will recognize them. He didn't, so they are out. Also Dragon surely is one of the Heroes of horn. Alive or dead, he will always be there when horn is blown so heroes will always follow him.

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There is evidence that Rand, Perrin and Mat have not been the only ta'veren in their lifetime. Suian says she has a Talent for seeing ta'veren. But Being she was cloistered in the WT until after they were born how would she know she has that talent if she never saw a ta'veren before?

 

RJ said that ta'veren are not born. And they are only ta'veren for a limited amount of time. It's also been implied not all ta'veren can shift the worlds on its foundations the way the three are.

 

I believe the three didn't start to become ta'veren until after Shadair Logoth. And after TG it can be argued they won't be ta'veren any longer, they'll have fulfilled their purpose.

 

Where does it imply that ta`veren dont shift the world? We know of five of them, and all those five had drastically changed Randland. Thats their job; the Pattern wouldnt need a ta`veren if only a town needed to be corrected. As for Siaun, its possible that she saw another ta`veren previously, but that doesnt really nullify my argument that all ta`veren are heroes of the horn, since theres 100+ heroes. And I believe RJ said that those three became ta`veren just before Moiraine arrived in Two Rivers.

 

If Mat and Perrin were heroes of the horn, Artur Hawking will recognize them. He didn't, so they are out. Also Dragon surely is one of the Heroes of horn. Alive or dead, he will always be there when horn is blown so heroes will always follow him.

 

Where did he say that he didnt recognise them? Just because there was no acknowledgement doesn't really mean much. Not to mention, notice how he specifically refered to Hurin. Not the guy with the actual horn or the other one carrying a banner. He specifically referred to Hurin as maybe becoming a Hero. Then theres RJ's quote...

 

Gender/soul rebirth he said is best illustrated by Mat and Birgitte. But he then said that there was more to it than that. Not sure what he meant exactly. Probably the point.

 

To me, thats basically implying heavily that Mat is a Hero.

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If Mat and Perrin were heroes of the horn, Artur Hawking will recognize them. He didn't, so they are out. Also Dragon surely is one of the Heroes of horn. Alive or dead, he will always be there when horn is blown so heroes will always follow him.

 

Where did he say that he didnt recognise them? Just because there was no acknowledgement doesn't really mean much. Not to mention, notice how he specifically refered to Hurin. Not the guy with the actual horn or the other one carrying a banner. He specifically referred to Hurin as maybe becoming a Hero. Then theres RJ's quote...

 

Gender/soul rebirth he said is best illustrated by Mat and Birgitte. But he then said that there was more to it than that. Not sure what he meant exactly. Probably the point.

 

To me, thats basically implying heavily that Mat is a Hero.

 

 

He called Mat trumpeter and Perrin banner man. I think that is as good as saying you guys are nobody. And not one person beside Hawking even acknowledged them. Also Hurrin was only refereed as such because Rand asked him not to come and Hurin's reply wowed Artur Hawking. Mat commented on how few the total hero count was and Hawking said that it takes more than bravery to become hero of Horn. Unless this is some kind of unbelievable thriller, that alone made is clear that Mat and Perrin had nothing to do with Horn. Them being Tave'reen has more to do with them being friend of Rand and less to do with their past life or anything else.

 

RJ's quote might have something to do with Mat being descendant of Mantherens. Old blood is very strong in him. My 2 cents;)

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I think they might have been ta'veren in their Age, but probably are not so always, since they are spun out of the wheel and then back.

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