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Luckers

Moiraine, Leigh and Jason

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Most of what follows is already under discussion elsewhere, I'm just doing that thing I do where I join things together in order to overcomplicate and confuse the issue. Enjoy!

 

Kodome calichniye ga ni Aes Sedai hei

 

Most people assume that Moiraine will make it safe and sound out of the Tower of Ghenjei--and frankly I agree with them. I don't think its possible to kill her off after 15 years of fans awaiting her return. And I mean even if she managed to defeat the Dark One, heal Rand's hands and wounds, and kill Elayne and Faile before dying I'd still be pretty miffed.

 

So I'm thinking Moiraine has a bit of a get out of jail free card. Having died once, double jeoprody now applies and she cannot die again. But then we have this...

 

5.“Well, finally, I have only been asking for this for like fifteen years. This is awesome. This is—wait. Uh, what’s going on… what are they… what does that… oh crap.”

 

[Leigh Butlers Towers of Midnight Review]

 

Now I've seen it suggested this is Asmo--the other fifteen year question--but I don't think that's plausible. RJ considered not even answering the Asmotastrophy, yet Leigh implies this thing has some pretty heavy twists and implications for the story. I don't think something that only scraped its way into the books could have such weight--even if it shockingly reveals that it was someone other thatn Graendal, it would be shocking to the fandom, not the plot.

 

Nope, I think--and seemingly so do most the rest of the fandom--that this is Moiraine. So that begs the question of what the hell is this twist? The general chatter seems to be about it being a death--usually Noal's, as opposed to Thom's or Olver's [Mat having his own 'Get Out of Jail' card in the fact that he needs to survive TG in order to potentially have outrigger fun with Fortuona]. But perhaps first we should discuss.

 

What Makes Things Go Wrong In The Tower of Ghenjei

 

It could be a simple as the Finn's get overly frisky and people end up as t-shirts, but I think another source might have been implied.

 

Olver. There's a chapter involving him that just breaks my heart. Now maybe it's just me. I'm not talking about a big dramatic scene. (Although it does have another big reveal). Most people might find humor in it. But not me. Maybe I'm just sensitive. Remember what I said earlier about the price of victory? What happens here is both endearing and tragic. On one hand it was logical and inevitable that things would play out this way. On the other hand, I just never saw it coming, and neither will you (not that it will stop you from trying, huh? [Luckers comment: Darn tootin' it won't!]).

 

[Jason Denzel's Towers of Midnight Review]

 

A chapter involving Olver which breaks Jason's heart? Yet which has elements of humour to it, and is inevitable but unpredictable. I think Olver will run away and follow Mat, Noal and Thom into the Tower of Ghenjei, thus changing the game away from the scene Moiraine foresaw and placing everything in risk. The tragedy will be the 'oh crap' result that Leigh referenced [more on this in a second], the humour will be in the 'oh Olver, you incorigable scamp' element of it, and the inevitability of it comes from Olver's fascination with the Tower, his history of not doing what he's told, and his history of following Mat when Mat tries to leave him behind. As for the unpredictability...

 

Moiraine has this to say about the rescue.

 

It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to. and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives.

 

[Moiraine Damodred's Review of Towers of Midnight]

 

This is what should indicate that Olver joining the rescue shouldn't be possible (or predictable). I mean Moiraine is pretty clear, no? More than the three would mean death for all, and given Mat (and in my opinion Moiraine) definately survives the Tower of Ghenjei, then Olver can't go. Clear as crystal... or is it?

 

After all we know that people forget most of what they see about the future in the rings--she clearly retained memories of what would happen if four people attempted to rescue her, but what of what will occur should three people attempt the rescue as per her instructions, and then a fourth joined them later?It wouldn't, technically, be violating Moiraine's directions--it occuring may not ensure death for all. Though that doesn't mean it won't be nasty.

 

So What is the 'Oh Crap'?

 

Some suggest the deaths of Noal, Thom or Olver. I do not think so. My pet theory/absolute guesswork is that this is the situation that causes Mat to 'give up half the light of the world, to save the world'--i.e. lose an eye [and for those who are wondering why I'm taking that prophecy so literally, it ties in with others, like Mat's brim covering a wound etc. For further discussion start a thread on the General Wheel Board].

 

Isn't That A Wee Bit Too Tragic?

 

Jason did say it might be viewed as humourous, and Mat getting physically disfigured doesn't seem very humourous, does it? Well the thing is, as I raised above the 'precocious little tyke' element could be viewed as humorous. Especially as Mat losing his eye 'saves half the light of the world'--note too that Jason spoke of the 'price of victory'.

 

So the progression I suggest is that Mat, Thom and Noal enter the Tower of Ghenjei to save Moiraine, and Olver follows unintentionally throwing a spanner in the works. To offset that Mat is forced into a position where he gives up his eye (likely whilst concealing from Olver that this was his fault). Later we realise that because of this event the world was saved in some manner--and I do suggest it will be later, losing an eye to save the world isn't all that tragic, so I do suggest that whilst it is occuring Mat is only acting to offset the damage done by Olver.

 

Conclusions

 

So that's my theory. Mat, Jason and Leigh will enter the Towers of Midnight to save Moiraine, only to be followed in by Oluckers. Jason and Leigh will end up trapped in a Finn Leather-working factory [Oh CRAP!], Mat will lose an eye, but he, Moiraine and Oluckers will escape--all blissfully unaware that Oluckers is Demandred, and orchestrated the whole thing.

 

(I'm sorry, I'm really bored at work).

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My theory on Leigh's comment is that it will have more to do with the anticipated reunion between Rand and Moiraine than the rescue itself. As for Olver, I tend to think they'll tie him up or some such to prevent him from interfering.

 

Also, Asmodean is more like a 17-year thing. We didn't get confirmation of Moiraine's return until ACOS, which was published in '96. TFOH was published in '93 (LOC in '94). Pedantic, maybe, but ACOS is closest.

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my guess is that the half the light to save the world is mat having to use one of aludra's matchsticks losing one eye in the process or something quite similar and save Olver and Moiraine.

by saving moiraine, he will save the world since min's viewing of Moiraine and what she has yet to do to help Rand ( he cant win without a woman "dead" and gone).

 

but yeah olver joining them in the Tower is very much plausible,from past evidence, the sad thing is that he learns what all adults know, there is no winning at the game without cheating so loses that part of his childhood?

 

the leigh's comment i think its more about moiraine though, since she says "oh crap...what are they" and i took that to mean the ToG trip. i dont think there was more than one person involved in asmo's death.

 

i could be wrong though.

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5.“Well, finally, I have only been asking for this for like fifteen years. This is awesome. This is—wait. Uh, what’s going on… what are they… what does that… oh crap.”

 

Leigh Butler's comment has more to do with what happens after Moraine meets up with Rand. I can see Moraine being all cool Aes Sedai, "Take me to Rand al'Thor. Oh and thank you, I guess, Matrim, Thom and man I do not know." Then she decides to either wound Rand further, maybe slap him, or hopefully just outright kills Cadsuane and Elayne, because it would be doing all the readers a favor (in my opinion).

 

I have accounted for Oliver showing up and think it might have to do with leaving Noal behind so they can escape, I'm not sure this has something to do with 'half the light of the world', it seems a bit of a stretch to compare Jain Farstrider to 'half the light of the world' even if he is a favorite of most children's stories. It doesn't seem like the man would be regarded in that sense, in terms of plot and story, I'm sure it has to be something else but like anyone else, I've not been able to pin it down.

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I viewed Mat's eye as the price the Finns will demand for Moiraine's release. We know that the Eelfinn collect human body parts, and that they make harsh demands.

 

It's possible that Olver may force Mat into this position, so that instead of a clean rescue + escape Olver inadvertently notifies the Finns of the rescue attempt or something.

 

I think Luckers' theory that he will follow them in afterwards as a fourth man has merit. Firstly, we do not see Olver on the cover of ToM - rather, only the three men are shown (i.e., Olver is not part of the initial group of three). Secondly, Olver is the only other person that actually knows how to enter the ToG (bronze knife) and where it is.

 

The main problem with this is Mat wouldn't allow Olver to come with and just 'wait outside' the ToG, so how does Olver even get over to the ToG in the first place? That'd be tricky.

Edited by Sentinel78

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Hey Luckers: you ain't the only one bored at work!

 

My weak-ass take on the ToG-

 

1. Man, could you imagine anything happening to Thom after humping that letter around for years?

 

2. Hopefully, we learn some origin stuff about the Finns.

 

3. Olver (with his Snakes and Foxes fixation over 3-4 books) has to come into play somehow, right?

 

4. I think Moiraine comes back stilled. Just a feeling. MAybe in the rescue.

 

There's more but I would be embarassed to share with you good people. Maybe later.

 

scraps18

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never forget this statement ! ;P

 

... Mat redefines the very meaning of Awesome in this book.

[Jason Denzel's Towers of Midnight Review]

 

im confident that he will get them all out safely *fingers cross* :mat:

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The price of victory is going to be Mat's eye and Olver's life. Olver's obsession with snakes and foxes strongly suggests his appearence in the tower; the fact that he knows how to get inside guarantees it. The somewhat humorous part will probably be Olver attempting to bargain with the 'finns.

 

I will take Jason at his word and expect something totally unexpected in regards to the above but that doesn't make it any less inevitable.

Edited by Gor

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I agree with Luckers.

 

I suggested Olver will follow them in after a time. It fits in with the whole idea of the Finns and snakes and foxes. The only way is to cheat.

 

Obviously only the three will have to go in to do the rescue and only three. But Olver could easily go in afterwards. It is completely unexpected because we "know" there will only be three people going in to save Moiraine, and one of them isnt olver.

 

BUT it is kinda inevitable that he will be involved. That is basically the whole point of the character Olver.

 

Of course, others were adamant only the 3 will go in, but its looking like ovler will do exactly as Luckers and I said.

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So that's my theory. Mat, Jason and Leigh will enter the Towers of Midnight to save Moiraine, only to be followed in by Oluckers. Jason and Leigh will end up trapped in a Finn Leather-working factory [Oh CRAP!], Mat will lose an eye, but he, Moiraine and Oluckers will escape--all blissfully unaware that Oluckers is Demandred, and orchestrated the whole thing.

 

 

Very nice, but where is Valan Luca in all of this?

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So that's my theory. Mat, Jason and Leigh will enter the Towers of Midnight to save Moiraine, only to be followed in by Oluckers. Jason and Leigh will end up trapped in a Finn Leather-working factory [Oh CRAP!], Mat will lose an eye, but he, Moiraine and Oluckers will escape--all blissfully unaware that Oluckers is Demandred, and orchestrated the whole thing.

 

 

Very nice, but where is Valan Luca in all of this?

 

I hope we never see Valan Luca for the rest of the books. So annoying and unnecessary.

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as to asmodean for some reason i keep thinking moraine is the one who killed him, please don't ask why i have no textev, its just the feeling i keep getting over the years

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I thought of another possible scenario to fulfill Moiraine's statement that only three may go. Noal dies before they enter the tower. Not sure how, but then they are left out in the middle of nowhere with only two, and then comes Olver who followed in secret as has been suggested, and he will be the third.

 

As to "half the light of the world to save the world," I saw that as him saving Moiraine, which will save the world. Min said that Rand will fail without her, tho she only thinks it to herself in one of her POVs, and can't bring herself to tell. And one of her earliest viewings of Mat, I think in EotW, she sees an eye on a balance scale, which seems to me to mean some kind of bargain with the Finns, or a wager maybe since it's Mat.

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"This is awesome, what does that, oh crap..."

 

The Thing in The Blight (TIB) is a Tower of Ghenjei.

 

I'm envisioning the Moiraine Rescue Party's escape from the Tower of Ghenjei as the final sequence of every Metroid game, where you have to just run, run, run like hell to find an exit, killing all Finns in their way (Awesome). Then they find a platform that takes them back down to the surface, (What does that do) but when they exit, they appear in the Blight (Oh Crap)

 

I too am bored.

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"5.“Well, finally, I have only been asking for this for like fifteen years. This is awesome. This is—wait. Uh, what’s going on… what are they… what does that… oh crap.”"

 

Everything in ToG goes smoothly.

 

They return to Randland and go see Rand.

 

Moiraine follows Mat into the room where Rand is and

 

a) Rand screams "IT'S A TRAP!" and balefire's Moiraine.

b) Graendal zips past the window on a sho-jumper and balefire's Moiraine.

c) The above is all wrong and Moiraine is turned by 13x13

d) None of the above, and I'm an idiot.

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I thought of another possible scenario to fulfill Moiraine's statement that only three may go. Noal dies before they enter the tower. Not sure how, but then they are left out in the middle of nowhere with only two, and then comes Olver who followed in secret as has been suggested, and he will be the third.

 

 

 

that would mean the bookcover is wrong !!! ;p or olver has grown gray hair ^^

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Maybe one of the 2 ladies Moridin sent after Perrin/Mat will be waiting outside of the tower. When they finally escape, the Forsaken strikes and Olver saves the day? Would be funny for a forsaken to be killed by a child.

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that would mean the bookcover is wrong !!! ;p or olver has grown gray hair ^^

Sweet's cover art is hardly scene-perfect. Or good. For all we know that might actually be Olver.

 

 

 

 

Ok, I don't actually believe that. :rolleyes:

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I kind of think Olver will go, perhaps he brings items like iron, Thom's instruments and Aludra's fireworks after the fact, so that Mat's group technically stick to the rules, but then have the means to defeat the Finns. The only way to win at snakes and foxes after all is to cheat.

 

Mat's loosing half the light of the world to save the world has me believing he will definitely give up an eye. Goes back to Mat's connection to Odin. Perhaps Mat tricks the Finns to get them out of his head. Maybe he makes a deal with them that they can only see out of one eye. We are not sure exactly how the nature of the Finns memory stealing works. Though I guess it does incorporate sound too, as Mat has mentioned music and language as part of his new memories. Still if he gets them to only get memories from one eye, then he promptly cuts out that eye. I just think Mat is willingly going to loose the eye, more along the lines of a conscious sacrifice.

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EDIT WAIT! What if Moiraine returned in Olvers body, or what if that was what Mat gives an eye for?

 

Moiraine returns in Olver's body, and then 'Olvraine' marries Thom, fulfilling Min's viewing? Somehow I do NOT see this happening.

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I have always thought Moraine would not be able to channel after her escape from ToG. Mainly because of all the comments Thom makes about her ('a well set up woman, if only she couldn't channel')

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EDIT WAIT! What if Moiraine returned in Olvers body, or what if that was what Mat gives an eye for?

 

Moiraine returns in Olver's body, and then 'Olvraine' marries Thom, fulfilling Min's viewing? Somehow I do NOT see this happening.

 

Makes you think of Thom as a COMPLETELY different man doesnt it.

 

Come on we all know Moiraine was sent back in time by the Finns to dally with Lews Therin in order to produce Demandred. We all know this. And we also know that Moiraine took a leaf out of Aginors book in the AoL, we all know she made Bela mate with a Trolloc to get Narg. And then she merged a foal with a Fade and got Faile, who has a long lost hermaffer sibling called Foade.

Edited by Drekka Mort

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So many great theories, but doesn't anyone else think that Luc/Isam will play a role in the ToG rescue. We know he went in there when Perrin chased him in Tel, and RJ doesn't waste any of these opportunities to tie up an end long forgotten. And Birgitte told Perrin that it was even more dangerous to go in through the wolf dream. Speaking of which, Perrin's renewed interest in learning how to use the wolf dream even hints at HIS involvement. Two Tavs in the ToG again?

Any thoughts?

 

P.S. Since the 'Finns know the future, won't they know what Matt is doing?

 

 

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