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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Chapter 1 "Apples First"

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ok here is how i see it. Rand is the strongest Taveren ever. events happen around him, yet they balance out. the good does not out way the bad. someone dies someones life is saved. the DO has placed his hand on the pattern and altered it. Rand's presence merely suspended the touch an altered to create a balance to the advanced decay, an advanced production.

it fits in with what we know of taveren, and has been remarked before that Rand is a focus for the pattern and he brings balance. i don't see anything wrong with it or extra ordinary.

 

 

Taveren cannot break the natural order of things. Rand did. If you kill someone and bring him back from death, it's not creating balance.

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The *ta'veren* effect doesn't. Pretty much no one knows what the *Dragon* effect does. There has to be more to the Dragon than just being a ta'veren, even the strongest ever. He's pretty much unique, as far as we know. I think this is linked to that, really. Ta'veren is a facet, but only a facet. I really do think he has the ability to manipulate threads -- the way they are supposed to be, /or/ if he falls, the way he wants, ripping reality if he goes too far and releasing the Dark One. Thus why the DO doesn't just kill him. It'll end up another world like the 'Mirrors' world where the Shadow won but the DO isn't free.

 

I like this bit about why the dark one doesn't just kill the dragon and of the mirror worlds where the dragon died and the shadow ruled but the dark one is still trapped.

 

I think the 'Dragon' effect is the key to this discussion we don't really have any examples or knowledge of what the dragon is capable of, he is definitely more then a ta'veren.

 

Also like the rubber band example where rands effect re-balances the pattern back passed neutral.

 

Because this effect seems to be linked to rands mood I don't think it will last at such an extent all the time, as he comes down from his high he will still have a positive effect just not so dramatic.

 

 

.....

 

Taveren cannot break the natural order of things. Rand did. If you kill someone and bring him back from death, it's not creating balance.

 

Not sure how the advanced production is breaking the rules, why cant rand have speed up time so the apples are back producing fruit as if it is the next season already?

 

.....

 

One final thing I want to know is what have his girlfriends felt through the bond? Has he stopped feeling so cold and hard?

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ok here is how i see it. Rand is the strongest Taveren ever. events happen around him, yet they balance out. the good does not out way the bad. someone dies someones life is saved. the DO has placed his hand on the pattern and altered it. Rand's presence merely suspended the touch an altered to create a balance to the advanced decay, an advanced production.

it fits in with what we know of taveren, and has been remarked before that Rand is a focus for the pattern and he brings balance. i don't see anything wrong with it or extra ordinary.

 

 

Taveren cannot break the natural order of things. Rand did. If you kill someone and bring him back from death, it's not creating balance.

he isn't breaking the natural order, the fruit rotted at an accelerated pace. this was done against the pattern. Rand's presence healed the trees and caused them to produce fruit as they were supposed to. he balanced out the harm that was done. he brought the -10 from the DO back to a zero balance w/ a +10. there was supposed to be a crop naturally, he countered the DO's rot/ blight to have the harvest which would have occured.

 

and Taveren cannot break the natural order of things? woman falls down a flight of stairs yet lives w/ no harm. child falls from a building lives no harm. a vase bounces down a hallway it does not break. tiles fly from a roof and land in the pattern of the ancient AS. all of these things happen around Rand and break the natural order of what should have happened. all this is equated w/ his being taveren, the good that balances out the bad that happens around him.

 

nothing is said of Rand's taveren acting in the natural order but as a balance as reasoned out by Min.

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ok here is how i see it. Rand is the strongest Taveren ever. events happen around him, yet they balance out. the good does not out way the bad. someone dies someones life is saved. the DO has placed his hand on the pattern and altered it. Rand's presence merely suspended the touch an altered to create a balance to the advanced decay, an advanced production.

it fits in with what we know of taveren, and has been remarked before that Rand is a focus for the pattern and he brings balance. i don't see anything wrong with it or extra ordinary.

 

 

Taveren cannot break the natural order of things. Rand did. If you kill someone and bring him back from death, it's not creating balance.

he isn't breaking the natural order, the fruit rotted at an accelerated pace. this was done against the pattern. Rand's presence healed the trees and caused them to produce fruit as they were supposed to. he balanced out the harm that was done. he brought the -10 from the DO back to a zero balance w/ a +10. there was supposed to be a crop naturally, he countered the DO's rot/ blight to have the harvest which would have occured.

 

and Taveren cannot break the natural order of things? woman falls down a flight of stairs yet lives w/ no harm. child falls from a building lives no harm. a vase bounces down a hallway it does not break. tiles fly from a roof and land in the pattern of the ancient AS. all of these things happen around Rand and break the natural order of what should have happened. all this is equated w/ his being taveren, the good that balances out the bad that happens around him.

 

nothing is said of Rand's taveren acting in the natural order but as a balance as reasoned out by Min.

 

Some people just forget that the author has creative license as Randland is his world, his rules, and his exception to those rules. I mean...it's why we are all here. You want predictible, read a History. Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire is a good read I hear.

 

That said, where else can the story go? Mass starvation across the world pretty much, nothing growing, farmers turning their tools into weapons and marching north, food with wards to prevent spoilage not only spoils but turns rancid in an instant. The pattern seeks balance.

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Rand cannot just "manipulate threads" in the way that you are talking about. That would amount to complete control over every aspect of existence. The ta'veren effect suspends or alters chance for the purposes of shifting the Pattern back into alignment over time. No observed ta'veren effect accounts for the apple-miracle. It has been stated repeatedly, by every character who speaks on the subject as well as the author outside of the books, that the ta'veren effect does not produce impossible results, only highly unlikely ones.

 

The *ta'veren* effect doesn't. Pretty much no one knows what the *Dragon* effect does. There has to be more to the Dragon than just being a ta'veren, even the strongest ever. He's pretty much unique, as far as we know. I think this is linked to that, really. Ta'veren is a facet, but only a facet. I really do think he has the ability to manipulate threads -- the way they are supposed to be, /or/ if he falls, the way he wants, ripping reality if he goes too far and releasing the Dark One. Thus why the DO doesn't just kill him. It'll end up another world like the 'Mirrors' world where the Shadow won but the DO isn't free.

 

Ding, ding, ding, ding! Rand is not just a ta'veren, he's the Dragon Reborn. I believe that, as the Dragon, he has the ability to somehow use his ta'veren effect, along with Mat and Perrin's, to fix the Pattern and reseal the bore. I think (okay, I hope) that he will somehow be able to see the hole in the Pattern at SG and, using the combined ta'veren influence (perhaps that's what Callandor was really meant to do, or perhaps it is Justice that serves that purpose and Callandor will just be given to Narishma so his woman can control him and it to fight Shadowspawn or something) and his Dragon powers (which he may now have unlocked or discovered), he will be heal the Pattern and the DO will be screwed. This isn't just me wanting Rand to fulfill his destiny without being a tool for Aes Seai, either, though that is a part of it. Really, it's the only thing that makes sense...

 

Channeling near the bore makes no sense and just risks tainting whatever power is used. We already know that, had women joined LTT, both sides of the OP would have been tainted. Latra's plan would not have worked either, since it looked a great deal like sitting on her a$$ in hopes the Choedan Kal could be retrieved and they could smash the DO with massive amount of power. Throw in the fact that the idea of Rand being used as a conduit for some Aes Sedai to personally handle the matter herself is enough to make a lot of readers barf up a lung, and a saidar/saidin combo approach to dealing with the Dark One is not just ridiculous (since we've been told what would've happened) but nauseating as well (yes, I know some people are off on this 'Rand must surrender' kick, but surrendering to women isn't the answer...this isn't their show, it's his). What other options have we seen?

 

Channeling the True Power. This makes no sense either given RJ's obsession with the idea that you can't fight the same way as your enemy or you become as bad as they are ("Oh nos! The people of Shadar Logoth were ruthless against the Shadow and created this huge black blob that eats your soul!"). After that story, and the clear idea that Rand has to be pure and good and in a good mood when he faces the DO or his victory could be "as bad as if the DO won", why in the bleeding hell would RJ have even considered having him channel a power that comes right from the biggest evil of all? So if we throw out all channeling options, what's left?

 

Either Rand somehow has the ability to alter the Pattern (which he clearly does since he has apples blooming on trees that just spewed out rotten fruit and the sunshine is following him around) and will be able to fix things with his UNIQUE powers ("Only the chosen one can do what must be done", after all, not "The chosen one can sit on his a$$ and let everyone else use him like a hammer"), or...well, I guess barring that, we pretty much have Tel'aran'rhiod. The only problem with that is that then the Wise Ones and Egwene would be running the show and saving the day while Rand sat around making apples bloom. Unless, of course, he's a Dreamwalker (I've always thought he was a Dreamer and a Dreamwalker), but even then, he hasn't been trained. So I'm not buying that one.

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Either Rand somehow has the ability to alter the Pattern (which he clearly does since he has apples blooming on trees that just spewed out rotten fruit and the sunshine is following him around) and will be able to fix things with his UNIQUE powers ("Only the chosen one can do what must be done", after all, not "The chosen one can sit on his a$$ and let everyone else use him like a hammer"), or...well, I guess barring that, we pretty much have Tel'aran'rhiod. The only problem with that is that then the Wise Ones and Egwene would be running the show and saving the day while Rand sat around making apples bloom. Unless, of course, he's a Dreamwalker (I've always thought he was a Dreamer and a Dreamwalker), but even then, he hasn't been trained. So I'm not buying that one.

 

 

I agree, this new power of Rand's is unique. Not taveren. I've suggested before that this new power comes directly from the Creator. Sort of the opposite of Shadar Haran's powers given to him by the DO.

 

This power alters the pattern and the Creator made the pattern and the wheel. I think Rand would need the Creator's powers to rectify something as major as the DO's touch on the world. Some may say that taveren alter the pattern but they don't really. The pattern pulls the taveren to events that need to occur to iron itself out again. The taveren don't conciously alter the pattern - if it was all super powers then why would Mat constantly complain about being taveren? If he didn't want to do something, he could just go "nah stuff you pattern, I'm gonna taverenise you" (OK I know the improv isn't great but it's the point I want to get across). Also, the one power doesn't change or mend the pattern, when gateways are made a hole is being torn in the pattern.

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ok here is how i see it. Rand is the strongest Taveren ever. events happen around him, yet they balance out. the good does not out way the bad. someone dies someones life is saved. the DO has placed his hand on the pattern and altered it. Rand's presence merely suspended the touch an altered to create a balance to the advanced decay, an advanced production.

it fits in with what we know of taveren, and has been remarked before that Rand is a focus for the pattern and he brings balance. i don't see anything wrong with it or extra ordinary.

 

 

Taveren cannot break the natural order of things. Rand did. If you kill someone and bring him back from death, it's not creating balance.

he isn't breaking the natural order, the fruit rotted at an accelerated pace. this was done against the pattern. Rand's presence healed the trees and caused them to produce fruit as they were supposed to. he balanced out the harm that was done. he brought the -10 from the DO back to a zero balance w/ a +10. there was supposed to be a crop naturally, he countered the DO's rot/ blight to have the harvest which would have occured.

 

and Taveren cannot break the natural order of things? woman falls down a flight of stairs yet lives w/ no harm. child falls from a building lives no harm. a vase bounces down a hallway it does not break. tiles fly from a roof and land in the pattern of the ancient AS. all of these things happen around Rand and break the natural order of what should have happened. all this is equated w/ his being taveren, the good that balances out the bad that happens around him.

 

nothing is said of Rand's taveren acting in the natural order but as a balance as reasoned out by Min.

 

You are missing the point. There was nothing wrong with apple trees. They did blossom, fruits did come.What was unnatural was the fact that they blossomed twice in a year. Doing it second time was unnatural. There was nothing to heal in first place!

 

And yes, a Ta'veren CANNOT break the natural order of things. Even in real life people fall 10 floors and survive. Moiraine gave an explanation about Ta'veren effect in 3rd book I think (including everything you wrote). Everything you quoted is possible. Unless we are reading two different books.

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Rand is able to do exactly what DO is doing albeit at small scale. He is able to manipulate pattern (time) itself. Remember Artur Hawking was a powerful Ta'veren too and Mat and Perrin are Ta'veren too, though not a strong one. I have yet to see them "heal" or perform miracle. It's safe to say that Dragon has power beyond that of a simple Ta'veren. Or may be it is a side of Ta'veren we have not seen yet and it only shows itself in someone as powerful as Dragon. Artur hawking commented in second book as how heroes bound to Horn were there to serve the pattern and not other way around. May be Dragon can do just the opposite.

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the blight is not the *real* wot land but a part of another world *blended* into the real world if i understand it correctly

 

now: the spoiling and *weird things* going on in the world remind of the effects observed in the blight

 

furthermore beneath the blightlayer still exists the real environment.

 

A conclusion i can draw from this would be that the DOs touch randomly overlays the real environment around the world with parts of his *evil plane of doom*.

 

Rands ability seems to remove this overlay (melting apples etc) and by this restores the expected state of the land.

 

If this is so, he also could have the *power* (be it DB, creator, taveren, channeling . *power/skill*) to overlay this normal land with part of the *happy tree singer land of bliss*.

 

 

That would mean he did not make the trees blossom again, but only restored the of the pattern intended state. (and after that upgraded it for a short period of time)

 

 

 

another explanation could be the connection to the Nym power of growing:

 

in the AoL the nym have been assisted by Aiel in their *singing*; the Aiel being called The People of the Dragon and Rand being 50% Aile and 100% Dragon (well and a powerfull channeler who mostlikely could build a Nym) would be more then enough of an explanation why he can make things grown

 

 

and he simply could have remembered a weave that helps things grown very fast, and his being Drag'veren holds of the DOs touch of the newly grown fruits

 

pick one ;p

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Drag'veren. Love it! Do you think he'll put on a fruitbowl headdress and sing cabaret too :D just kidding.

 

I've had thoughts about the nym too but haven't posted them as I was waiting for someone else to first because mine are pretty crackpot and pure speculation.

 

and he simply could have remembered a weave that helps things grown very fast, and his being Drag'veren holds of the DOs touch of the newly grown fruits

 

Back in tEotW Moiraine said that because she channels that, in itself, offers some protection from the DO. Obviously he has grown too strong for that now but perhaps Rand's Drag'verenness offers protection.

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ok here is how i see it. Rand is the strongest Taveren ever. events happen around him, yet they balance out. the good does not out way the bad. someone dies someones life is saved. the DO has placed his hand on the pattern and altered it. Rand's presence merely suspended the touch an altered to create a balance to the advanced decay, an advanced production.

 

it fits in with what we know of taveren, and has been remarked before that Rand is a focus for the pattern and he brings balance. i don't see anything wrong with it or extra ordinary.

 

 

This theory seems to make the most sense to me... Balance. The DO is corrupting the "weave of the wheel" and taveren are there to correct the weave. I beleive that Mat & Perrin will have some small similar effects on the pattern as well - correcting the damage that has been done by the DO's touch. (with any luck it will make Perrin an interesting character again)

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Perrin has been removed from the main story for so long that I am beginning to wonder if he wont in fact betray Rand somehow. He is selfish in his motives in that he is willing to side with whoever he needs to in order to get what he wants. He aligns with White Cloaks in Edmonds Field, he aligns with Seanchan to save his wife. If someone truly diabolical were to affect Perrin, could he really sacrifice his wife in order to aid Rand? I don't think so and i think this makes Perrins character more interesting. But the kidnapped wife thing has been done already so i doubt anything interesting will happen.

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Perrin has been removed from the main story for so long that I am beginning to wonder if he wont in fact betray Rand somehow. He is selfish in his motives in that he is willing to side with whoever he needs to in order to get what he wants. He aligns with White Cloaks in Edmonds Field, he aligns with Seanchan to save his wife. If someone truly diabolical were to affect Perrin, could he really sacrifice his wife in order to aid Rand? I don't think so and i think this makes Perrins character more interesting. But the kidnapped wife thing has been done already so i doubt anything interesting will happen.

It is Perrin so there is a 100% chance you are correct.

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Perrin has been removed from the main story for so long that I am beginning to wonder if he wont in fact betray Rand somehow. He is selfish in his motives in that he is willing to side with whoever he needs to in order to get what he wants. He aligns with White Cloaks in Edmonds Field, he aligns with Seanchan to save his wife. If someone truly diabolical were to affect Perrin, could he really sacrifice his wife in order to aid Rand? I don't think so and i think this makes Perrins character more interesting. But the kidnapped wife thing has been done already so i doubt anything interesting will happen.

I've actually been wondering for a long time if he would be some sort of betrayer, mainly because of his all-consuming obesession with Faile. If something were to (finally) happen to her, he might go all Annikin Skywalker - would certainly make for an interesting twist.

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Perrin has been removed from the main story for so long that I am beginning to wonder if he wont in fact betray Rand somehow. He is selfish in his motives in that he is willing to side with whoever he needs to in order to get what he wants. He aligns with White Cloaks in Edmonds Field, he aligns with Seanchan to save his wife. If someone truly diabolical were to affect Perrin, could he really sacrifice his wife in order to aid Rand? I don't think so and i think this makes Perrins character more interesting. But the kidnapped wife thing has been done already so i doubt anything interesting will happen.

I've actually been wondering for a long time if he would be some sort of betrayer, mainly because of his all-consuming obesession with Faile. If something were to (finally) happen to her, he might go all Annikin Skywalker - would certainly make for an interesting twist.

 

 

It would certainly be about time he did something interesting... everything after LOC has been "oh-woe-is-me, wha wha wha, faile faile faile"

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Perrin is not going to betray Rand and the Light.

 

Nothing he's done is in any way as bad as some of the things Rand has done, and yet people point to a single phrase he thought in the heights of stress and think it's a sign/proof/etc that he will.

 

Just my opinion though. I do hope he does something awesome like in TSR, though.

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I used no connection to any of Perrins thoughts to assume he is capable of betraying anyone. It is simple in that his obsession over Faile or the Two Rivers or his family might have driven him to betray Rand. Even if it was something as simple as avoiding a battle in order to protect the Two Rivers.

 

But it's Perrin so he'll just be sitting there hammering things while he scratches his beard.

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I think that Perrin's storyline is going to have something to do with the Borderlander armies. Given that they have to do something with those guys and at some point Tenobia needs to die so that Perrin can get the Broken Crown thing and become King of Saldaea or whatever and it would be wierd to have that happen offscreen, I wouldn't be surprised to see him getting sent over to herd them up north to maybe help out with all those Trollocs who are in the middle of eating their families.

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I'm not buying this "Dragon effect" stuff; it's just a higher level of the ta'veren power. Ta'veren means "tied to the Pattern". The Fisher King is tied to the land. It's the same thing. We know some ta'veren are more powerful than others, and a ranking of abilities probably goes like this:

 

5. Unrealistic persuasive power

4. Tugging on people

3. Rand's so-called miracles

2. Rand's connection to the land

1. Rand's aura

 

I also find discussion of impossibility vs. extreme improbability pointless. Contradictions are impossible. For anything else, the distinction isn't meaningful.

Edited by Morsker

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ok here is how i see it. Rand is the strongest Taveren ever. events happen around him, yet they balance out. the good does not out way the bad. someone dies someones life is saved. the DO has placed his hand on the pattern and altered it. Rand's presence merely suspended the touch an altered to create a balance to the advanced decay, an advanced production.

 

it fits in with what we know of taveren, and has been remarked before that Rand is a focus for the pattern and he brings balance. i don't see anything wrong with it or extra ordinary.

 

 

This theory seems to make the most sense to me... Balance. The DO is corrupting the "weave of the wheel" and taveren are there to correct the weave. I beleive that Mat & Perrin will have some small similar effects on the pattern as well - correcting the damage that has been done by the DO's touch. (with any luck it will make Perrin an interesting character again)

 

 

Rand causes both good and bad things to happen. Hence the balance (balance of his good and bad deeds in a way). He doesn't balance others "bad" by his good. Peace.

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Perrin has been removed from the main story for so long that I am beginning to wonder if he wont in fact betray Rand somehow. He is selfish in his motives in that he is willing to side with whoever he needs to in order to get what he wants. He aligns with White Cloaks in Edmonds Field, he aligns with Seanchan to save his wife. If someone truly diabolical were to affect Perrin, could he really sacrifice his wife in order to aid Rand? I don't think so and i think this makes Perrins character more interesting. But the kidnapped wife thing has been done already so i doubt anything interesting will happen.

 

 

Funny how Rand almost did the same thing! I am guessing he is another villain in making?;) Seanchan and Whitecloak are not villain in this story. Are they?

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I think Perrin capable of anything. The DO is heavily touching the world so that could've screwed prophecies and stuff about Perrin. He went home to die and it was only incidental that he didn't. Plus he almost died in Tear to save Faile. Rather than seeing if he could help Rand he was at a forge, and it's he fights the wolf until he Absolutely needs it. As with Dumais Wells. Rand doesn't want to be the Dragon or channel, yet he accepted he could channel and captured a Foresaken for teacher. At least Rand tried during that trolloc attack at the beginning of tDR, Perrin did nothing. I don't he will but I wish Perrin would turn traitor or something, he isn't worthy of his destiny.

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Will Perrin betray Rand before or after he saves him a second time?

 

Seriously not a chance of him being a betrayer.

 

Did the reviewers say he did someting interesting?

 

Because, yes since LoC he has done Sweet FA.

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So... Is Demandred the murderer ruling in Seandar?

I'm assuming the "murderer" is who they think killed the ruling party, but it was just Semi.

Interesting that the "murderer" is openly ruling in Seandar. That makes me think it is a person, not a rumor. Perhaps a DF that Semi set up, like she offered to Suroth?

 

 

Does Demandred know Semi's dead?

 

Not sure to be honest. He knows she was captured, Moridin told him, Mesaana and Greandal in the gathering storm prologue.

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ok here is how i see it. Rand is the strongest Taveren ever. events happen around him, yet they balance out. the good does not out way the bad. someone dies someones life is saved. the DO has placed his hand on the pattern and altered it. Rand's presence merely suspended the touch an altered to create a balance to the advanced decay, an advanced production.

 

it fits in with what we know of taveren, and has been remarked before that Rand is a focus for the pattern and he brings balance. i don't see anything wrong with it or extra ordinary.

 

 

This theory seems to make the most sense to me... Balance. The DO is corrupting the "weave of the wheel" and taveren are there to correct the weave. I beleive that Mat & Perrin will have some small similar effects on the pattern as well - correcting the damage that has been done by the DO's touch. (with any luck it will make Perrin an interesting character again)

 

 

Rand causes both good and bad things to happen. Hence the balance (balance of his good and bad deeds in a way). He doesn't balance others "bad" by his good. Peace.

Rand brings Balance to the Pattern. he might not have been able to affect the DO's touch before, but now after his unification i guess u can call it, it seems like he can. he has accepted his role, he is the champion of the Creator. the Dragon Reborn in full power. so it seems he can balance out the DO's touch on the pattern now, to return it to where it should be. it seems logical since when he channeled the True Power of the DO, the dark aspect of his being taveren was high lighted. the rot of food stuffs increased while he was in the city while he was Dark Rand.

 

it is only logical for him to be able to counter the DO's touch to the pattern now since he added to it before. he is the Creators tool and a taveren, he is the balance to the DO's touch on the pattern.

 

 

 

as to Perrin. he knows he has to be there for Rand to succeed. if Rand falls everyone is doomed even Faile. i don't see him betraying Rand. he is like a knight in his sense of honor and he now has a large amount of people depending on him also.

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