Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Identity of Mesaana


Recommended Posts

Since CoT I have believed that Silviana is Mesaana. Now that she has had a lot more screen time, I'm trying to determine if she absolutely is ruled out or not.

 

My reasons for this theory include:

 

  • The Mistress of Novices is a fairly powerful position, it does not have the appearance of power. Mesaana was noted in the Companion to be interested in true power, not the appearance of power.
  • Mesaana corrupted young people and taught them to worship the Dark One -- as MoN she would have had a perfect opportunity to influence young impressionable minds to her cause.
  • Mesaana indicated she could cause pain when it was necessary but she did not take pleasure in it. MoNs spank. A lot.
  • When Alviarin forced Elaida into a private penance, it is mentioned she dislikes anything that takes her away from her novices. A Forsaken trying to be both an Aes Sedai as well as take care of Forsaken-ly duties wouldn't have a lot of free time.
  • When Alviarin was deposed, Mesaana said that she could take her penance as "a small punishment from me". (A bit cheesy, but you never know....)
  • RJ seemed to indicate that we should know by CoT who Mesaana is and that he would fully reveal her in upcoming books. Silviana has been given more scenes in recent books, not less like Danelle or given POVs like Tarna.
  • Silviana is confident at first that she can break Egwene. Mesaana, immediately after Eg is captured, is confident that Eg will be broken and felt she was only a figurehead. Around the time that Silviana admitted defeat, Mesaana requested Eg be deposed because she could not be broken and was not a figurehead after all. Sheriam informs her that will likely not happen, which is when Silviana jumps on the "I'm on Eg's side" train.
  • Silviana knows beforehand about the BA purge coming up and has plenty of time to do whatever is necessary so the Oaths won't stick.

 

There are a few things that concern me, but I think there are ways around a lot of the caveats.

 

  • Illusion isn't good with physical contact, and spanking requires a lot of physical contact. But no one would have contact with Silviana's face or hair. She could easily make herself look long-haired or wear a bun.
  • We have no idea at all what her eye color is. But I've always thought that the eye color thing was a red herring. It certainly could be easy enough to use Illusion to change your eye color. It's also a small enough weave that it would work easily.
  • During the Seanchan attack, Silviana was in a cell, but Mesaana visited Sheriam to get the sleepweavers and chop off her finger. But because of the attack she might have been left alone. If she was not forkrooted, just shielded, if they tied it off it would have been able to be broken. Or she could have been being held by Darkfriends, or broke a small shield since she is much more powerful than she lets herself appear and used Compulsion to make people think she hadn't left.

 

Is there anything else that would rule her out that others can think of?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 51
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The only thing here is that Silviana faced the Hall for Egwene and then was locked. If she is Mesanna, why would she compromise her position as MoN for Egwene and at that time her orders was to get rid of Egwene since she wanted a girl/figurehead that could be manipulated as Amyrlin.

 

I don't think that Silviana is Mesanna but you never know :huh:

Edited by GB
Link to post
Share on other sites

She cannot absolutely be ruled out.

Unlikely for the following reasons.

No mention at all, of Silviana before TFoH -- Mesaana's been in the Tower since TDR at least.

Silviana's stated appearance (tall, stocky) is not at all like Mesaana (slim, medium height) and Alviarin finds Mesaana vaguely familiar looking, suggesting that Mesaana's disguise is not that very different from her real appearance.

MoM gets disturbed by physical contact so MoN is a genuinely dangerous position because physical contact is guaranteed.

She gives Egwene good advice (about Shemerin, etc), which you wouldn't expect from a FS

Silviana is well-known and generally respected, which makes it more difficult to impersonate her in terms of personality.

Link to post
Share on other sites

She cannot absolutely be ruled out.

Unlikely for the following reasons.

No mention at all, of Silviana before TFoH -- Mesaana's been in the Tower since TDR at least.

Silviana's stated appearance (tall, stocky) is not at all like Mesaana (slim, medium height) and Alviarin finds Mesaana vaguely familiar looking, suggesting that Mesaana's disguise is not that very different from her real appearance.

MoM gets disturbed by physical contact so MoN is a genuinely dangerous position because physical contact is guaranteed.

She gives Egwene good advice (about Shemerin, etc), which you wouldn't expect from a FS

Silviana is well-known and generally respected, which makes it more difficult to impersonate her in terms of personality.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

If you take RJ's word at face value, then you must apply this statement to anyone you think could be Mesaana.

 

http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/32

 

RJ has had a couple of things to say on the matter. He told "Tallis" at the Harvard Coop signing [January 18, 2003] that "there are many clues as to Mesaana's identity, enough that we should figure it out before COT.

 

I'm 99% convinced that Mesaana is Evanellein.

 

Pre CoT hints(Evanellein):

 

She was one of the AS that arrested Siuan. (TSR, Ch 47)

She was part of Elaida's council. (TFoH, Prologue)

She was concerned about her looks and clothes. (TFoH, Prologue)

She knew what was going on in Tanchico, a focal point of BA activity. (TFoH, Prologue)

She seemed to know all about Elaida's political activities. (ACoS, Prologue)

 

Post CoT confirmation (Evanellein):

 

In (TGS, Ch 46) Evanellein was missing when Egwene was raised. Yet, it was made clear of how very thorough Verin was in listing the BA. Moreover, the only uncovered BA, not on the list were AS that were either "very weak in the power" and/or lacked any significance in the story. Evanellein, a Gray Sitter wouldn't be overlooked. As for the Oath Rod, remember, Semirhage defected to the Shadow because she faced either severing or binding as punishment for her crimes. That and the fact that the OR was made during the AoL, means that the Forsaken can be binded like any other channeler.

 

Danelle was a red herring.

 

It's Evanellein. At this point of the story, who else could it be?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Danelle. She brought the "mason" soldiers in who helped take the tower from Siuan.

 

There were non-BA sisters working with Elaida. Danelle was too obvious. Blue eyes, Brown Ajah, Bronze Silk. Etc. All red herrings. Her uncharacteristic, fiery expression during Siuan's arrest is not uncommon among Browns: Verin in (TGS Ch 38) and Saerin in (TGS, Ch 41).

 

In ACoS Prologue, Alviarin had just seen Danelle before Mesaana appeared, yet only vaguely recognized her when SH stripped Mesaana of her disguise in (CoT Ch 21). Alviarin was trying very hard to know who her Great Mistress was. She didn't have much interaction with Evanellein, but was in the same room with her in Elaida's study.

 

That, and the fact that Danelle wasn't among the missing AS when Egwene was raised.

Edited by roguenation
Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote is laras. she is definately close with darkfriends, or she wouldnt have helped verin with the poison, it would keep her from being tested with the OR and she has been working siuan/Egwenes rebellion very hard. plus after laras tries to kick egwene out of the kitchens/WT is when messaana tries to have egwene removed as the "figurehead"

Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote is laras. she is definately close with darkfriends, or she wouldnt have helped verin with the poison, it would keep her from being tested with the OR and she has been working siuan/Egwenes rebellion very hard. plus after laras tries to kick egwene out of the kitchens/WT is when messaana tries to have egwene removed as the "figurehead"

I don't understand why people think Laras knew Verin was poisoning herself. All Verin says is to thank Laras for the tea. Verin put the poison in after the tea was made.

Link to post
Share on other sites

While Silviana cannot be ruled out, I think it is VERY unlikely.

 

Look at the repercussions of Silviana's actions. When it becomes obvious that Elaida is tearing the Tower apart, and is inept, while Egwene is a good leader and doing what is right by the Tower, Silviana gets behind Egwene.

 

The Shadow would never have done such a thing. All they had to do was sit back and let Elaida screw things up. The Shadow had to have known by this point that Egwene was capable, and Elaida was a mess and serving their purposes. Why speak up for Egwene and against Elaida at that time? Plus she loses her position, and Egwene choosing a Red or Keeper (or MoN) had to be an extreme long shot. It doesn't make much sense from the Shadow's side of things that I can see.

 

Also, BS has some quotes from the tour indicating that Egwene was not entirely incorrect about her suspicions about Mesaana beating the Oath road. Though BS stopped short of saying this was the case, my money is that she's still in the Tower (which would rule Evanellein out).

 

I think it is Danelle.

 

Crazy thought, has Shemerin been tested with the other AS, or was she treated as an Accepted and therefore didn't take the oaths?

Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote is laras. she is definately close with darkfriends, or she wouldnt have helped verin with the poison, it would keep her from being tested with the OR and she has been working siuan/Egwenes rebellion very hard. plus after laras tries to kick egwene out of the kitchens/WT is when messaana tries to have egwene removed as the "figurehead"

I don't understand why people think Laras knew Verin was poisoning herself. All Verin says is to thank Laras for the tea. Verin put the poison in after the tea was made.

verin states that the taste had to be specific to cover the poison and laras chose the tea for the cover up taste.

Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote is laras. she is definately close with darkfriends, or she wouldnt have helped verin with the poison, it would keep her from being tested with the OR and she has been working siuan/Egwenes rebellion very hard. plus after laras tries to kick egwene out of the kitchens/WT is when messaana tries to have egwene removed as the "figurehead"

 

Siuan, Gawyn, and GB wanted to rescue Eg. Doesn't make them a DF. Everyone assumed that since Eg was captured, tortured, and humiliated, that she would want to be rescued. Besides, Laras has had a history of helping people escape. That said, a Mesaana/Laras would have had to have other BA moles in Elaida's study as she would be confined to the kitchen and would have been conspicuous in other areas of the WT, otherwise how would she get such info as she admitted she has in ACoS Prologue?

Edited by roguenation
Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote is laras. she is definately close with darkfriends, or she wouldnt have helped verin with the poison, it would keep her from being tested with the OR and she has been working siuan/Egwenes rebellion very hard. plus after laras tries to kick egwene out of the kitchens/WT is when messaana tries to have egwene removed as the "figurehead"

 

Siuan, Gawyn, and GB wanted to rescue Eg. Doesn't make them a DF. Everyone assumed that since Eg was captured, tortured, and humiliated, that she would want to be rescued. Besides, Laras has had a history of helping people escape. That said, a Mesaana/Laras would have had to have other BA moles in Elaida's study as she would be confined to the kitchen and would have been conspicuous in other areas of the WT, otherwise how would she get such info as she admitted she has in ACoS Prologue?

alviarin for one, and everyone knows noone looks at he servants. how many DF servants are in the WT?

Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote is laras. she is definately close with darkfriends, or she wouldnt have helped verin with the poison, it would keep her from being tested with the OR and she has been working siuan/Egwenes rebellion very hard. plus after laras tries to kick egwene out of the kitchens/WT is when messaana tries to have egwene removed as the "figurehead"

I don't understand why people think Laras knew Verin was poisoning herself. All Verin says is to thank Laras for the tea. Verin put the poison in after the tea was made.

Laras has three character certificates.

1) Verin who swears Laras is not a DF

2) Graendal - who knows exactly who Mesaana is masquerading as, and is having her watched.

3) Alviarin - who wouldn't find a slim, tallish, mid-30s woman vaguely familiar if she was metamorphosing from an elderly 150 Kg BBW

Laras also has an occupation that means she's under constant observation and touching things as well as people and she wears a white smock during the day - not bronze silk.

Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote is laras. she is definately close with darkfriends, or she wouldnt have helped verin with the poison, it would keep her from being tested with the OR and she has been working siuan/Egwenes rebellion very hard. plus after laras tries to kick egwene out of the kitchens/WT is when messaana tries to have egwene removed as the "figurehead"

I don't understand why people think Laras knew Verin was poisoning herself. All Verin says is to thank Laras for the tea. Verin put the poison in after the tea was made.

verin states that the taste had to be specific to cover the poison and laras chose the tea for the cover up taste.

 

"My, but this is good tea," Verin said. "When you next see Laras, please thank her on my behalf for providing it. She promised that she had some that hadn't spoiled, but I didn't trust her. Can't trust much these days, can you?"

"What, is Laras a Darkfriend?" Egwene asked.

"Heavens, no," Verin said. "She's many things, but not a Darkfriend. You'd sooner find a Whitecloak marrying an Aes Sedai than find Laras swearing to the Great Lord. Extraordinary woman. And quite good at judging the flavor of teas."

 

...

 

"It takes a very special tea to make asping rot go down sweetly," Verin said, taking another sip. "As I said, please thank Laras for me."

 

This only implies Laras made the tea, not that she knew about the asping rot and certainly not that she put it in the tea for Verin. Verin simply asked Laras for that special kind of tea ("Hi Laras, it's me Verin, you have any green tea from Saldea in stock?"), which she made perfectly.

Edited by Gor
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, come on, @Sharaman. We hear of Silviana 3 times pre-CoT, twice when Elaida thinks of punishing Sitters, and once when she receives the same treatment, courtesy of Alviarin. Surely that's not enough to deduce she's Mesaana?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Brandon ruled out Laras, and he essentially ruled out anyone he has written.

 

A fan told Brandon on the TGS tour that RJ said that Mesaana's alter ego hadn't been seen on screen. Brandon thought this was wrong, but he was doubtful enough that he took the guy's word for it and then started answering tour questions with this 'fact' in mind. In fact, RJ had said the opposite - that we HAD seen her alter ego on screen - and ironically enough, the guy who told Brandon this was the guy who asked RJ the question in the first place. He's been away from the fandom for several years, and he'd forgotten, apparently. He didn't even know until I mentioned it to him in email, at which point he was really embarrassed (I linked him his old report).

 

Brandon was also embarrassed for having taken the guy's word for it, because he knew better...but that period of uncertainty before we assured him that RJ had said she had been seen led to Brandon ruling out Laras (he said she was ruled out because she had been seen on screen). Now, we can safely assume that Brandon knows exactly who Mesaana is, and while he might have second-guessed himself on a character like Danelle, whose online appearances are quite brief (Brandon might have remembered them, but figured they had been deleted scenes - he sometimes mixes those up), there is no way that he could have possibly been confused when it comes to a character like Silviana, whom Brandon wrote himself in TGS. He researched every single character he wrote, especially the major ones.

 

Evanellein's actions fit a Black Ajah member better than they fit Mesaana. Also, Evanellein was calling for Elaida to be pulled down at a time when Mesaana was doing her best to keep Elaida right where she was, screwing things up royally. But Alviarin might have called for such an action.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Yoniy0 I don't she's Mesaana as my first post in this thread should make clear. I don;t think Laras is Mesaana either. What makes you think I do?

Oh no, I know you don't. It's just that you refuse to eliminate her based on that criterion.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Yoniy0 I don't she's Mesaana as my first post in this thread should make clear. I don;t think Laras is Mesaana either. What makes you think I do?

Oh no, I know you don't. It's just that you refuse to eliminate her based on that criterion.

The question of me eliminating her doesn't arise, since I never considered Silviana = Mesaana in the first place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mesaana is diguised as a brown ajah member I'm sure about that.

 

Greandal muses to herself that Mesaana was a famous scholar in the AoL and only became a Forsaken in the first place for the chance at more interesting research. What better way to infiltrate the tower by chosing an Ajah were you fit in.

I believe Mesaana is only imitating the effects of Agelessness caused by the binding of the oath rod. she is from the AoL and is familiar with the process. This is why she is vaguely familiar to Alviarin when the disguise is removed. Didn't she also study and torture captured Aes Sedai and their Warders?

Think about Suian and Leane after the stilling removed their ageless looks and the binding. They were discribed as being "vaguely familiar"

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's also hard to notice browns with their noses in books and ink everywhere other Aes Sedai very rarely bother to take them serious.

Verin is a very good example of how wrongly the Browns are judged.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...