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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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I apologize if anyone brought this up already. Is there a valid reason that Graendal uses the term "Dark One" a few times in her scene? Is she quoting something, using it in mockery like Rand mocks the word "Chosen" after owning Rahvin? Or, did Sanderson write those few paragraphs at 3am and make a dumb mistake. I notice that she uses the term Dark One in any sentence involving the Creator or rats and ravens. It honestly feels wrong when the words "Dark One" are used in her scene.

 

It's interesting, I'll have to go back and re-read some other Graendal scenes. She also thinks "Light!..." in that scene. Again, intentional, or a mistake by Brandon? I just can't believe it's a mistake.

 

Is it possible that Graendal's reasons for going over to "The Great Lord" were reasons likeunto Verin going over?

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I apologize if anyone brought this up already. Is there a valid reason that Graendal uses the term "Dark One" a few times in her scene? Is she quoting something, using it in mockery like Rand mocks the word "Chosen" after owning Rahvin? Or, did Sanderson write those few paragraphs at 3am and make a dumb mistake. I notice that she uses the term Dark One in any sentence involving the Creator or rats and ravens. It honestly feels wrong when the words "Dark One" are used in her scene.

 

It's interesting, I'll have to go back and re-read some other Graendal scenes. She also thinks "Light!..." in that scene. Again, intentional, or a mistake by Brandon? I just can't believe it's a mistake.

 

Is it possible that Graendal's reasons for going over to "The Great Lord" were reasons likeunto Verin going over?

 

Very unlikely Id say, seeing how she want to be NB and so on. Mesaana on the other hand, there should be a small possibility that she realizes what the DO will do if he win since shes a scholar and all, maybe 1/100 ;)

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Concerning Graendal's use of "Dark One" (also of "Light!"): this was mentioned in the Tor prologue thread. My opinion is that it is intentional and says something about Graendal's motivations: namely, that she is only in it for the power. She wants to be Nae'blis because it's the top job available under the circumstances; we know that she is systematically positioning herself to replace Moridin, what with her submitting to Shadar Haran a few books ago and then consistently being the "good" Forsaken among the other bunglers. Now she has access to the True Power, which only Moridin has besides her. She is definitely going up, and I foresee her becoming the main villain in the next book as Moridin becomes sort of an anti-Rand. The fact that in her mind she sometimes uses blasphemous terms suggests that she doesn't really believe in the Shadow for any reason other than what it provides for her.

 

I have another question from the Tor thread. Consider the following two quotes from tGS, which are in Chapter 37 (where Rand destroys Natrin's Barrow):

 

"Rand stepped up to the lip of the ridge, removing the access key from his pocket. It started to glow just faintly, a red light coming from its very heart."

 

"The access key's globe burst alight with a more brilliant color, seeming crystalline. The light within was scarlet, the core brilliant and bright. As if someone had dropped a glowing rock into a pool of blood."

 

Unless I'm going crazy, this is the only time the access key has ever been described as glowing in this particularly ominous way. Usually it is pure white or golden-white light.

 

When I first read this scene, I figured that it was indication of Rand drawing the True Power through the key; after all, he had just experienced its addictive qualities for the first time, and not long before he had commented that it was only the conflict between the desire to channel it and the desire to draw through the access key that made it possible to resist both. Perhaps he found a resolution. In the same scene, Min observes that his eyes are in shadow despite the bright light from the key: the same phenomenon of a dark halo that we've already seen associated with him a few times since (and only since) touching the TP. Finally, after releasing the Power (whichever Power it was) he is shown to be in "ecstasy"; now, the OP is pretty ecstatic, but Rand has already been channeling it, even with that key, for a while now. This is not the usual reaction after such an effort; that is exhaustion. But we know that the TP is much more pleasurable than the OP, which makes me wonder about the cause here.

 

There is only one problem, and that is that in the prologue to ToM, Aran'gar specifically observes that Rand is drawing "all that power". Since the TP is undetectable, it must be saidin. So: is Aran'gar wrong (unlikely; Sanderson did not have to insert that line) or did Rand really just use saidin? If the latter, the above evidence is now really puzzling. What is the cause of the red light?

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The CK is an access key to a saidin s'angreal. I doubt that TP can be drawn through it.

 

You're assuming that "saidin sa'angreal" means that it only draws saidin, rather than that it can only be used by a man (or, presumably, Aran'gar). Up until now we haven't seen any power besides the One Power that a man might try to draw, so there was no way to tell. In fact, it is perfectly consistent with the way we have seen *angreal work that they act by increasing the user's capacity to hold the Power, and not by actually connecting to the Power itself: after all, the model for their operation is that one channels "through" them. We know from a Jordan Q&A that the True Power is limited to those who can channel normally, so it would not be out of line to suppose that capacity in the True Power is the same as capacity in the One Power, barring that the Dark One may refuse to allow as much as one could theoretically hold (as he does with Graendal). So why should it be wrong to say that a *angreal would increase capacity in the True Power as well, if that were available?

 

Further "evidence": in the very early glossaries (like, the first four books or so) the entry for "angreal" includes a cryptic comment that there are said to have been angreals usable by both men and women, but none were ever found. There is no in-text evidence for this, so I take it to be a bit of worldbuilding on the part of Jordan. Now, if that is possible, it suggests that the angreal is not attuned to the Power but to the gender of the channeler, and simply acts as a conduit or reservoir for their channeling. So again, why should it not act as such for the True Power, which we know to be similar in almost every functional way (same Five Powers and same weaves, for example)?

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The CK Rand was using was specifically linked to a s'angreal (the giant statue in Carhein) that drew saidin.

The access key doesn't directly draw anything -it works only as a link to that statue.

If you're suggesting that the statue could also draw TP, this is extremely unlikely.

It was created by forces of the Light to be used during the War of Power.

They had no access to the TP and would have, if LTT's reaction is any hint, run a mile before creating a TP-capable s'angreal if they could have made such a thing at all.

If you think that Rand "accidentally" pulled TP while trying to draw saidin, he shows no signs of seeing the difference in the nature of the force and clearly he would recognise the difference, given how he described it when he did use it.

For your hypothesis to work, Rand would have to attempt to draw saidin, somehow receive access to a massive quanta of TP, not realise the difference in the feel, and decide to use it anyway.

It seems unlikely.

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I didn't pick up in that.. The only thing that jolted me was her use of the term "She'd been played." that seems a very modern saying. I wish they had added just 3 words... "for a fool" and it would have been better. Just my opinion.

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Fain said at the end of his POV something like he could have held the dagger another way, but then he would not have been able to cut himself with it. Does he need to cut himself for his powers to work, or does he just enjoy it?

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Fain said at the end of his POV something like he could have held the dagger another way, but then he would not have been able to cut himself with it. Does he need to cut himself for his powers to work, or does he just enjoy it?

 

 

I was wondering the same thing, but I am leaning more towards it's out of enjoyment and not that he needs to do it. Wish we didn't have to RAFO D;

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Concerning Graendal's use of "Dark One" (also of "Light!"): this was mentioned in the Tor prologue thread. My opinion is that it is intentional and says something about Graendal's motivations: namely, that she is only in it for the power. She wants to be Nae'blis because it's the top job available under the circumstances; we know that she is systematically positioning herself to replace Moridin, what with her submitting to Shadar Haran a few books ago and then consistently being the "good" Forsaken among the other bunglers. Now she has access to the True Power, which only Moridin has besides her. She is definitely going up, and I foresee her becoming the main villain in the next book as Moridin becomes sort of an anti-Rand. The fact that in her mind she sometimes uses blasphemous terms suggests that she doesn't really believe in the Shadow for any reason other than what it provides for her.

 

I have another question from the Tor thread. Consider the following two quotes from tGS, which are in Chapter 37 (where Rand destroys Natrin's Barrow):

 

"Rand stepped up to the lip of the ridge, removing the access key from his pocket. It started to glow just faintly, a red light coming from its very heart."

 

"The access key's globe burst alight with a more brilliant color, seeming crystalline. The light within was scarlet, the core brilliant and bright. As if someone had dropped a glowing rock into a pool of blood."

 

Unless I'm going crazy, this is the only time the access key has ever been described as glowing in this particularly ominous way. Usually it is pure white or golden-white light.

 

When I first read this scene, I figured that it was indication of Rand drawing the True Power through the key; after all, he had just experienced its addictive qualities for the first time, and not long before he had commented that it was only the conflict between the desire to channel it and the desire to draw through the access key that made it possible to resist both. Perhaps he found a resolution. In the same scene, Min observes that his eyes are in shadow despite the bright light from the key: the same phenomenon of a dark halo that we've already seen associated with him a few times since (and only since) touching the TP. Finally, after releasing the Power (whichever Power it was) he is shown to be in "ecstasy"; now, the OP is pretty ecstatic, but Rand has already been channeling it, even with that key, for a while now. This is not the usual reaction after such an effort; that is exhaustion. But we know that the TP is much more pleasurable than the OP, which makes me wonder about the cause here.

 

There is only one problem, and that is that in the prologue to ToM, Aran'gar specifically observes that Rand is drawing "all that power". Since the TP is undetectable, it must be saidin. So: is Aran'gar wrong (unlikely; Sanderson did not have to insert that line) or did Rand really just use saidin? If the latter, the above evidence is now really puzzling. What is the cause of the red light?

 

There's no doubt in my mind that Rand intended to channel saidin and actually did, as the access key channels saidin, not the TP. However, it seems that he could tap the TP without intending to, just by his harshening personality. He probably was channeling both saidin and the TP when he balenuked Natrin's Barrow.

 

Also, did that stunt of Rand's cause all the food to spoil, or did Graendal do it? We already know that the TP spoils food from the chapter where Rand and Nynaeve release the kid from Graendal's compulsion.

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A wild theory, is fain going north to kill moridin? two different theories -

 

1st. Fain claims he knows where rand is all the time but maybe with rand and moridins connection he has got confused and will end up killing mori instead (i know its a long shot)

 

or

 

2nd. Fain says he is the only one allowed to kill rand so he is going north to kill someone who tried to rob him of this by killing rand, and mori is his target even though mori has given the order for nothing to happen to him.

 

Of course he could just be completely nuts and collecting an army of undead trollocs for his own schemes.

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A wild theory, is fain going north to kill moridin? two different theories -

 

1st. Fain claims he knows where rand is all the time but maybe with rand and moridins connection he has got confused and will end up killing mori instead (i know its a long shot)

 

or

 

2nd. Fain says he is the only one allowed to kill rand so he is going north to kill someone who tried to rob him of this by killing rand, and mori is his target even though mori has given the order for nothing to happen to him.

 

Of course he could just be completely nuts and collecting an army of undead trollocs for his own schemes.

 

You may want to read the scene a bit more closely if you havent already.

It is easy to miss, i suppose.

 

Fain thought to himself, instead of hunting, he was going to wait at the one place he knew Rand would come to eventually. (SG)

 

So he is going to the DO's prison (around about) to wait until Rand comes to confront the DO then jump out and kill him and the DO while he is at it. Or thats his plan anyway.

 

I do like the first idea you had, that he will get confused between the two and kill Moridin instead, but that isnt the reason he is going into the Blight.

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oh, and to the person who wants to know if you can channel the TP through an angreal

 

Q: Can Moridin use a male angreal if he channels the True Power?

RJ: No.

 

None of the angreals we know can channel the TP. If there is one, it is most likely hidden in the Blight or with one of the Forsaken. I dont see too many "Light" friends making TP (essance of DO) angreals at all.

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Aaaaaaaaahhh, I need the whole book NOW!!!

 

That was incredable, simply amazing.

 

When i realised that it was starting with Lan, i freaked out. I love Lan, his POV was awesome and it's about time he stopped with the whole "lone hero" thing. Awesome.

 

Graendal, WOW. I was sure she was dead, in her POV you can almost feel the fear and astonishment from what is hapening to her. I'm a little sad than aran'gar is dead i like his/her POV, always intreguing to read. This is just proof at how quick and smart Graendal realy is, but now i'm nervous for Nynaeve and Min! who's she gonna get first? And now Graendal is gonna be pretty much invinceable with her scheming because everyone thinks she's dead, so everything she does will get the blame shifted on other forsaken/ bad guys. she's put a real spanner in the works!

 

Fain, wow he's reeking of power right now with the whole mashadar summoning and corrupting the trollocs. There's gonna be some epic battles with him this time round, i wonder what his new name will be?

 

Borderlander POV had so much emotion in it, makes me HATE the other half of the army that is prancing around down south.

 

What a prologue, the book is gonna be amazing, don't know if i can actualy physicly wait untill november though :/

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Concerning Graendal's use of "Dark One" (also of "Light!"): this was mentioned in the Tor prologue thread. My opinion is that it is intentional and says something about Graendal's motivations: namely, that she is only in it for the power. She wants to be Nae'blis because it's the top job available under the circumstances; we know that she is systematically positioning herself to replace Moridin, what with her submitting to Shadar Haran a few books ago and then consistently being the "good" Forsaken among the other bunglers. Now she has access to the True Power, which only Moridin has besides her. She is definitely going up, and I foresee her becoming the main villain in the next book as Moridin becomes sort of an anti-Rand. The fact that in her mind she sometimes uses blasphemous terms suggests that she doesn't really believe in the Shadow for any reason other than what it provides for her.

Graendal is a hedonist. She cares about nothing but her own pleasure at the end of the day. That's what she's fighting for. If it would advance her "cause," I'm sure she would sell the DO down the river in a heartbeat. She's not a fool to think it would be a simple matter of double-crossing him, though. For now, she can get what she wants for serving the Dark One, but she's obviously still thinking only of Number One at the end of the day. I'd say it was intentional and speaks to Graendal's true allegiance -- to herself. Which makes her more dangerous than anyone else to both sides -- Modidin's also fighting for what he wants, which seems more in line with what the DO wants: oblivion, which is completely contrary to what Graendal wants. What will she do if/when she reasons out the truth about the Shadow? She's not the fool Moridin claims the other Forsaken to be in thinking there's going to be an eternity of reward to their service.

 

I didn't pick up in that.. The only thing that jolted me was her use of the term "She'd been played." that seems a very modern saying. I wish they had added just 3 words... "for a fool" and it would have been better. Just my opinion.

 

The need for her to escape was so urgent that even the author didn't have the time to phrase her thoughts correctly :biggrin:

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I apologize if anyone brought this up already. Is there a valid reason that Graendal uses the term "Dark One" a few times in her scene? Is she quoting something, using it in mockery like Rand mocks the word "Chosen" after owning Rahvin? Or, did Sanderson write those few paragraphs at 3am and make a dumb mistake. I notice that she uses the term Dark One in any sentence involving the Creator or rats and ravens. It honestly feels wrong when the words "Dark One" are used in her scene.

 

It's interesting, I'll have to go back and re-read some other Graendal scenes. She also thinks "Light!..." in that scene. Again, intentional, or a mistake by Brandon? I just can't believe it's a mistake.

 

Is it possible that Graendal's reasons for going over to "The Great Lord" were reasons likeunto Verin going over?

 

As a supporter of WOT from Day One, I am a loyal reader that would GREATLY APPRECIATE hearing from Brandon Sanderson's camp on this one. If he said it was an honest mistake, I'd be happy as a peach - the mans human. If he said that it was NOT a typo and there WAS a reason, then I would greatly appreciate (and be satisfied) hearing an answer from him - even if that answer is RAFO.

 

This is not like early typo mix-ups of Saidin/Saidar - this is a BIG DEAL.

 

 

Fish

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We know Graendal's reasons for going over. She was an ascetic, a healer of mental disease, who decided she preferred being a hedonist and 100% focussed on her own pleasure. When people swear, they revert to using familiar turns of phrase that they wouldn't use in cold blood. G would have been used to exclaiming "Light!" for hundreds of years before she switched allegiance. Since she concealed her allegiance for a long time, she would also, like modern AS, been used to referring publicly to GLoD as the DO. It's like a former Christian-turned-atheist swearing "Christ", out of simple familiarity.

 

As to "She'd been played", Brandon has a couple of stylistic tics in terms of using American idiom. He also used the phrase "riled up" frequently in TGS for example. This is in contrast to RJ, who I think consciously avoided using American idiom, inventing "bear with sore teeth", "woolhead", etc., to avoid an anachronistic feeling that pulled readers away from his landscape. For example, Mat doesn't use real-world gambling idioms in his PoV.

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You may want to read the scene a bit more closely if you havent already.

It is easy to miss, i suppose.

 

 

Cheers, I downloaded the audio book format, so went back and listened again. Will scrap my first theory and go with the one that fain may get rand and mori mixed up.

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So at first when I heard the prologue was going to be sold before the book online I though to myself "There's no way in heck that I am going to spend money on that, that I will just wait the month or so until the book comes out so I can read it all at once." And then I started reading some of the threads around here and then I thought "I can't wait for the book to come out, I need to buy it right meow." So I did, and I am super happy that I did. I loved the prologue.

 

I liked the Lan POV a lot. I've always had a soft spot for lonely emo guys. I loved how at the end he did decide to let the guy go with him, instead of trying to bend the promise he made to Nynaeve to how he wanted it to be.

 

I'm am of the group that actually thought Rand did kill Graendal in tGS, though I do remember thinking "There's no way that's the end of that!" so I'm pretty happy she's still alive. I loved seeing through her POV on how it really went down, and how scared she was that Rand had become so dangerous.

 

I don't like Perrin's POVs at all. I liked them more towards the beginning of the series, but now I just think they're boring and they're always basically the same. I also really don't like Faile. There's just something about her that irks me. Perrin just whines too much about who he is and the choices he has to make. So IMO I didn't really like it.

 

Fain's POV is just creepy, but in a good kind of way. I too think that the way his POV was written is really beautiful in it's maddness. I have no theory or opinion really on how his storyline is going to go, but I'm definitely really interested to see it.

 

I love how it ended with the borderlanders POV. That was heartbreaking, but also uplifting in the fact that none of the soldiers were going to give up even if it meant losing. I'm in the military so whenever I hear stories or even read fictional stories about things like that, it always pulls on my heart strings. I also loved the father making his son a "man" even though it was a few days too early.

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Im curious about something..In the gathering storm.. right before Rand trys assassinating Graendal was there any mention of doves or other birds? Just a thought.. I cant find my copy of TGS to check

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Anyone know anything about the Leviathan in the Aryth Ocean Fain is comparing worms to in the prolouge?:P Or does anyone think about the way Fain thinks before meeting the trollocs? He already know that the blight is massing this huge trolloc army towards the borderlands, and he snatched up a few trollocs of those scouts for himself(the scouts that was looking out for worm packs) Will he be doing anythin about the army, or will he bybass it? Thought the fain chapter was the most interesting by far, of the POV.

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Maddux,

 

i checked TGS but didn’t read anything about a dove in the chapter A Force of Light. I do notice however that Nynaeve notices the compulsion on Ramshalan is 'heavy', and that 'there are a lot of weaves here (Ramshalan's mind)'but that it is 'Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice.' So basically i think this is supposed to be a hint that the compulsion isn't as good or different from Graendal’s but is still age of legends quality. Not even Verin knew true compulsion and Nynaeve is one of the few who could recognize the weave the way it was created in the age of legends. That’s probably why she goes on to think the compulsion is 'maybe just more complex.' she doesn’t even consider another person could have place the compulsion on Ramshalan. She knows a forsaken had to have been responsible and Graendal at that point is a no brainer. I loved this prologue because it makes A Force of Light an even more interesting chapter in TGS.

 

One thought i had is that Rand knows the method in which he killed Graendal was ruthless but he figured it was worth it because it worked. What is he finds out Graendal is not dead? He won’t necessarily find out another forsaken and black sister were destroyed. Would he consider killing the unknown amount of darkfriends in the fortress worth it? Or maybe Gaendal will be smart about it and try attacking Nynaeve and Min without revealing herself (that would be the smart and most likely thing in my opinion...)

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just remembered it wasnt a forsaken who placed compulsion on Ramshalan it was a black sister but one who had at least learned age of legend compulsion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

just remembered it wasnt a forsaken who placed compulsion on Ramshalan it was a black sister but one who had at least learned age of legend compulsion.

It was both, Aringar performed compulsion on Ramshalan as well. Although I have no idea how Nyneave would be able to see her (his) weaves much less remove them.

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One reason she'd have found the saidar weaves weird was because they were mixed with saidin weaves she couldn't see. No, I don't think she could remove the saidin compulsion very easily - though Lanfear did once say that if you know a weave is there, you can cut it, and LTT/ Rand has done that as well.

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