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The Bodyswap Theory


Luckers
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Whose body is Moridin's? Is it someone special? I would assume that if there was some body swap, then genetically Aviendha's children would be from this man. Then there must be a reason why Avi's children can channel at such an early age.

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Rand using TP might or might not have been expected, and it might or might not have been an advantage

 

Like I said above, its possible that Rand using TP was a totally unexpected thing even to the DO. However it is clear that Rand was corrupted by that use, so in a way it was helpful to the DO, even if Rand did use it to escape from Semirhage. Heck, strictly speaking we don't even know for sure IF the TP did come from Moridin. The possibility is that the DO gave Rand access directly to corrupt him. That was obviously the plan all along, and having the lights champion using the very essence of the Dark One was probably a big win to the shadow, and likely contributed to Rand going totally insane.

 

I think this was reflected when Ish/din was thinking about the sha'ra board and the strategy that involved leaving your opponent no choice except to move the Fisher onto a spot of your color. The Dragon Reborn had to accept and use the TP, even if it occurred because he had "no choice," as a precursor to victory by the DO, imo. Actualizing Ishy/Din's dream was the goal here. Only the Dragon Reborn can manifest destruction of the Wheel and will only come as close as he did this turning after he has embraced the TP in any particular lifetime.

 

edited for clarity, I hope

Edited by FanoLan
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Its been a while since I've engaged in these arguments...

 

Are you KuraFire?

 

No, I'm just a returning nerd who hasn't posted since before sanderson took over. As for moradin's body being special, as far as I'm aware its just an attractive body with the right genome for channeling. Avi's kids being able to channel from so early... No idea why besides their parents both being channellera probably got them tested super early.

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  • 1 month later...

I have posted on here before about my idea that Rand will die and go into TAR, how he will die i have no idea, but anyway he will die and his soul will end up in TAR.

so this can happen (EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]) (thanks to Luckers for making that easy to just copy), anyway while thats going on there will be a lot of fighting and people thinking that its all gone wrong and that the DO has won,

now there are two parts to my theory in which Nynaeve will go to TAR and rip him out of the dream like what happened to Birgitte, and Nyneave saw Moghedien do it and now she knows how it is done,

so my first one is that he will die and go to TAR and Nyneave will rip him out and when that happens Rand will return to his body, so he has died and then will live again but in his own body with all its flaws and there are people surrounding him to heal or bond him to keep him alive when this is done.

My second on again starts with him dying and Nyneave having to go and rip him out of the dream again but first they are setting up the funeral pyre as soon as he passes to destroy his body so that when Nyneave rips him out of the dream he will come back with a brand new body (un damaged), weather he would look like himself or weather he would look like LTT would be interesting and he would have all the memories of his previous lives and know what he has done wrong and possibly how to destroy the existing seals and understand what he did wrong last time to make them properly to seal the DO up for good, and again there would be people waiting for him to appear after being ripped out to heal or bond to keep him alive.

anyways let me know what you think about my idea.

:)

 

If he end up in TAR, won't he get all is memories of previous lifes?

Birgitte had all her memories for a while, and they are only fading after a long time out in the world.

With Rand having knowloedge of all his previous incarnations, then he will also know how recapturing the Dark One, which I assume have been done at least a few times before, was made the previous ages.

 

 

I had already put that he would have all his memories of previous lives in the second part of my theory so if that were to happen he would know exactly what he did last time and hopefully where it went wrong so this time he can seal him properly if he doesn't

kill/destroy the DO, im still hoping for a battle with that conclusion but it just doesn't seem likely, more likely that he will repair the seal that the creator

made in a different way that LTT tried the last time, and this time it will be a seal the DO cant get through seeing as this is supposed to be the last time they will face each other.

I just don't see the body swap idea happening, don't get me wrong i don't think my idea is exactly what will happen just that the second part of my theory is more likely, and that as we have already seen this sort of thing happen with Birgitte and Nyneave seeing

how it was done and Rand having all those injuries that if he was to die and have his body destroyed then get ripped out of TAR then he would be whole again injury free with the knowledge of the ages/ uses of the one power that LTT knew and of the forsaken's weaknesses.

The only thing that makes me think this wont be the way it happens is that Robert Jordan would probably want it to be done in a way that nobody has seen in previous books.

Anyway let me know what everyone thinks :-)

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I have posted on here before about my idea that Rand will die and go into TAR, how he will die i have no idea, but anyway he will die and his soul will end up in TAR.

so this can happen (EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]) (thanks to Luckers for making that easy to just copy), anyway while thats going on there will be a lot of fighting and people thinking that its all gone wrong and that the DO has won,

now there are two parts to my theory in which Nynaeve will go to TAR and rip him out of the dream like what happened to Birgitte, and Nyneave saw Moghedien do it and now she knows how it is done,

so my first one is that he will die and go to TAR and Nyneave will rip him out and when that happens Rand will return to his body, so he has died and then will live again but in his own body with all its flaws and there are people surrounding him to heal or bond him to keep him alive when this is done.

My second on again starts with him dying and Nyneave having to go and rip him out of the dream again but first they are setting up the funeral pyre as soon as he passes to destroy his body so that when Nyneave rips him out of the dream he will come back with a brand new body (un damaged), weather he would look like himself or weather he would look like LTT would be interesting and he would have all the memories of his previous lives and know what he has done wrong and possibly how to destroy the existing seals and understand what he did wrong last time to make them properly to seal the DO up for good, and again there would be people waiting for him to appear after being ripped out to heal or bond to keep him alive.

anyways let me know what you think about my idea.

:)

 

If he end up in TAR, won't he get all is memories of previous lifes?

Birgitte had all her memories for a while, and they are only fading after a long time out in the world.

With Rand having knowloedge of all his previous incarnations, then he will also know how recapturing the Dark One, which I assume have been done at least a few times before, was made the previous ages.

 

 

I had already put that he would have all his memories of previous lives in the second part of my theory so if that were to happen he would know exactly what he did last time and hopefully where it went wrong so this time he can seal him properly if he doesn't

kill/destroy the DO, im still hoping for a battle with that conclusion but it just doesn't seem likely, more likely that he will repair the seal that the creator

made in a different way that LTT tried the last time, and this time it will be a seal the DO cant get through seeing as this is supposed to be the last time they will face each other.

I just don't see the body swap idea happening, don't get me wrong i don't think my idea is exactly what will happen just that the second part of my theory is more likely, and that as we have already seen this sort of thing happen with Birgitte and Nyneave seeing

how it was done and Rand having all those injuries that if he was to die and have his body destroyed then get ripped out of TAR then he would be whole again injury free with the knowledge of the ages/ uses of the one power that LTT knew and of the forsaken's weaknesses.

The only thing that makes me think this wont be the way it happens is that Robert Jordan would probably want it to be done in a way that nobody has seen in previous books.

Anyway let me know what everyone thinks :-)

Until the world turns again, Mierin makes the bore, and then it is patched shoddily by LTT the first time...

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  • 3 months later...

I wanted to make 2 comments/questions on this theory.

 

First, a question. Assuming this body swap theory is correct, then you are saying Rand lives beyond the last battle in Moridin's body, correct? Assuming he will want complete anonymity after the LB and return to his farm in peace, he could only do that if nobody knew about him, but could he really do that? go and live by himself on a farm, away from his three girls, and his children? When Avi sees her visions, her children have never met their father. So, if those visions are, in fact, true, then that means to me that Rand does NOT survive the LB, even in Moridin's body...

 

Second, on the question of Avi's children channelling so young, I guess I do not understand the debate here, but it seems simple to me, Rand and Avi have sex prior to the body swap.

Edited by rm1759
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Wouldn't rand die in moridin's body due to the body's excessive use of the true power? How can anyone champion the body swap theory have hopes of rand continuing to live rather than it be a temporary arrangement?

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Not sure if the True Power could cause death of someone that uses it (or of someone that has access to it).

First symptom of using it seems to be a dark halo around the person.  (Gathering Storm)

A later symptom seems to be saa in the eyes.  (Crown of Swords, Winter's Heart)

An even later symptom seems to be flames in mouth/eyes. (first several books)

As far as I recall, the books do not show any other symptoms.

Not sure if either author told about any other symptoms.

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Not sure if "linked" would be the right term.  Not sure what the right term would be.

 

One Viewing seems to indicate that the Dark One would come in the form of a faceless darkness.

Edited by mb
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I suspect that rand WILL die, but not as he or anyone else expects. Part of the LB is he needs to sacrifice himself to seal the bore, and his "death" will, IMO, be critically advanced and incurable injuries, and Nyn's last-minute healing will merely be a temporary recovery; he will recover and live long enough to create the Peace of The Dragon, to father Min and Avi's kids, and to order his last will and testament. Perhaps his Anointment of the Light will give him the strength to live on when an ordinary person would be long dead; but ultimately his injuries will kill him.

 

Perhaps Balefire is the key ingredient here as well - maybe with Balefire the Bore can be resealed. I need to work out this theory tho. 

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Another interesting point to ponder is the DO's trans-migration. Assuming that both the Creator and the Dark One have the power to bring the dead back to life, through transmigration of souls, rather than through resucitation of dead bodies (once someone is dead, and the soul leaves the body, there is no way to bring that body back to life with that soul, as far as we know).

Lets also assume the Wheel/Pattern has the power to either grant a particular soul to a particular baby being born. 

The DO we know can grab souls from recently deceased individuals, and preserve other recently deceased to replace their soul with a new one.

How does he make the newly dead body come alive again (as with Osangar/Aranger, for ex)? Does he have a specially trained Dragkhar eat the soul of a captive, freeing the body for a newly dead forsaken while the body is still alive?

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Min having children or not is now unknown.  It is Elayne and Aviendha that will for sure have children.

 

I doubt balefire could reseal the Bore.  In all cases of balefire in the books, no thing is left at the location that the balefire hit.

 

About transmigration of souls, I recall Robert Jordan telling some about the process.  Do not remember where nor what he said.

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  • 1 month later...

 

 

 

Its been a while since I've engaged in these arguments...

Are you KuraFire?

 

No, I'm just a returning nerd who hasn't posted since before sanderson took over. As for moradin's body being special, as far as I'm aware its just an attractive body with the right genome for channeling. Avi's kids being able to channel from so early... No idea why besides their parents both being channellera probably got them tested super early.

 

Couple of comments...

 

1. We know that Avi's children can channel from an early age only from Avi's visions.  We don't know if that vision is destined to happen or not.  Based on Avi's fears for the future of the aiel, she has to change something.  Wouldn't this also allow for the possibility that something about her children can change as well.

 

2.  Sticking with the body-swap theory, here is Min's viewing of Avi:

 

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd. (cut and pasted from Wheel of Time Encyclopedia, http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/)

 

Saying that they are "Rand's" is ambiguous.  Rand's soul? Rand's body? Rand in spirit?  Also, there is the comment of "still something odd".  Is this foreshadowing that the babies will be from Rand's soul but Moridin's body?  That would be odd.

 

3.  Do Rand and Avi have time to hook up before the Last Battle?  Rand and Elayne had a knowingly passionate night together.  Rand and Min have spent plenty of time together which has led to probably many passionate nights together.  Isn't there some reference to Min drinking the moon-tea or something like that which seems to be a form of contraceptive?  Yes, Rand and Avi had the adventures in the snow, but it was kind of an accident.  Seems fair that Rand and Avi should have their knowingly, passionate moment as well.  She could conceive there.

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  • 11 months later...

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

The bodyswap theory began during one of the original discussions about the possibility that the Third Man that Rand began to see in his dreams during tPoD was Moridin. It was based on an attempt by me to solve certain contradictions between the prophecies that relate to Rand's death--contradictions which I thought might be solvable if a link between Rand and Moridin truly did exist. I've always meant to update it, but I just couldn't find the energy. I figure now, with tGS still fresh in people’s minds, is as good a time as any.

 

Rand's Death; A Plethora of Prophecy!

There has been a lot of theories over the years to explain Rand's death. Each would take one of the various prophecies and run with it--the problem being that whilst these theories might fulfil one of the prophecies, they usually ignored the others. So that is what I looked at--rather than trying to answer a singular prophecy, I chose to see if the prophecies as a whole established any requirements or limitations to the Rand's Death Scenario. Before I state what my final deductions were, here is my compilation of relevant prophecies concerning Rand's death.

 

The Prophecies of Rand's Death

 

1. EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

2. EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

4. MIN VIEWING: three women standing over a funeral bier with [Rand] on it. [tEotW]

 

5. MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

6.1 NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255] [Which we know is Rand because of the next point.]

 

6.2 WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. [LOC: 19, Matters of Toh, 312]

 

7.1 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

7.2 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

The Luckers Pick

 

So, as I said, there are many individual answers to each of these prophecies, but if you look at the following three together you can actually begin to establish some restrictions and requirements for Rand’s death.

 

1. To live, you must die.

2. He who is dead yet lives.

3. [Alivia] is going to [help you die].

 

As a result of these three we can establish these following points.

 

1. Rand must actually die. The wording is too clear here to permit him faking his death, or people assuming that he is dead in the event that he disappears, or any derivation thereof. He must actually die (more on this in a second).

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive his death... and I mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resuscitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. Concurrent states. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives.

 

The Nature of Death

Or we could call this part the Nature of Life in the Wheel. All I'm really looking to point out is that due to the cycle of resurrection within the wheel a living person has three distinct parts; body, soul and the manifest personality of the current incarnation. In terms of the theory, the significant part of all this is that 'death' in the world of the wheel is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead.

 

In particular the Forsaken stand in as evidence for this--their bodies died, their souls continued, and even the manifest personality of that incarnation remained cohesive--yet they are still said to have died, and refer to their 'death' in the possessive--it was their death, not simply the death of their body.

 

The Body Swap

What is the Body Swap Theory?

 

So keeping all that in mind, let's look at the actual theory. It's actually pretty much what you expect--that Rand and Moridin will swap bodies using the link that formed between them when they crossed their balefire streams. Then Alivia will assist Rand-in-Moridins-body to kill Moridin-in-Rands-body thus 'helping him die' and fulfilling requirement two. At that point Rand will be dead, yet alive fulfilling requirement three, and a part of him will genuinely be dead, under the definitions of death established in this series, fulfilling requirement one.

 

So How Will the Swap Occur?

 

As I said above the link will be what facilitates the link, but taking a closer look at that link can tell us a bit about the how and why. Firstly, the link is growing stronger. From fuzzy perceptions to thoughts crossing over to Rand and Moridin's souls being yanked together for a dream Q&A in tGS we've seen a steady progression and development of this link since it first formed.

 

From there I would bring up the saidin factor. Whilst the link seems to have a certain passive element--with thoughts sliding through unasked--there is also a state to it which can specifically be activated by either Rand or Moridin seizing or releasing saidin. And it is just saidin--which is curious, one would think for Moridin it would be the True Power given that's what he was channeling, but it isn't--Demandred notes that Moridin after three thousand years of using both saidin and the TP has suddenly given up using saidin altogether--ergo, it is saidin which is causing the nausea in him. I wrote a full thread on my thoughts about why its saidin, and why they're experiencing nausea which can be found here if anyone is interested http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47417.0.html

 

For the sake of the body swap though, all we need to know is that saidin activates the link, and that the link is growing stronger as time passes. My suggestion therefore for how the Swap will happen is that Rand and Moridin will be fighting and Rand will cut Moridin off from the Dark One as he did in tDR. Now I'm aware RJ has said those black threads are not a connection to the Dark One, and that channeling the True Power is simply a matter of the Dark One giving his permission--but the fact remains that in tDR that did cut Ishamael off from the True Power.

 

I've speculated that those threads are the Chosen Mark, and are what enables Ishamael to ask--as in it serves as permission to ask. Whatever it is its involved in the process of asking and recieving in some way. I'm getting off track--the point is that Moridin will be cut off from the True Power, forcing him to draw saidin. Rand and Moridin both channeling saidin at the same time in proximity will activate the link so strongly they their souls will swap bodies.

 

Let's Clean House

Soul Transfer and Manipulation

 

One of the commonly raised objections/questions about the Body Swap is the question of the basis for suggesting a swap to even be possible. They point out that only the Dark One's been seen doing that sort of things, and ask what basis there is to suggest Rand and Moridin could even swap intentionally, much less accidentally without effort. The reply to that is that it’s a misconception to think the Dark One is the only one playing with souls. In fact Soul Manipulation is relatively common within the series. Here, off the top of my head.

 

1. Mordeth's soul survives his body’s death and inserts itself into Fain's body--and should have been able to oust Fain except for the Dark One's taint in him.

2. Dreamwalkers/Wolves--from when Perrin stayed in the Dream too long when hunting Faile we know that Dreamwalkers souls actually leave their body to enter TAR. As do Wolves when they sleep or die.

3. Ter’angreal--the above obviously means that the dream ter'angreal can pull peoples souls out of their bodies. Also the hedgehog that captured Faile captured her soul and pulled it almost all the way out of her body.

4. Machin Shin devours soul’s whole.

5. Draghkar also devour souls.

 

Of course none of these are specifically what we're suggesting here, they simply serve to establish that the sort of soul manipulation and transferral were talking about is not out of the norm for the Wheel of Time. They cumulatively establish precedent for the general art of Soul Transferral.

 

Conclusions

So that's it. I know a lot of you don't like the Body Swap. I don't really like it myself, but it fits. And, to date, it is the only one that does fit. But make of it what you will, and try not to rip into me too harshly. I'll cry. ;D

 

 

I'm with you in the body swap thing, and that's clear for me because I think that the one who must die is Lews Therin Telamon (the man they talked about in the prophecies *is* the Dragon Reborn), and that explains Rand cannot channel Saidin after that (he is not the Dragon Reborn anymore nor ta'veren and all of that). In the epilogue said something like: Rand al'Thor, a Sheppard from the Two Rivers.

 

That's the line, i mean, he now is Rand himself and only himself.

 

And about the pipe... well, he has seen the Pattern, he *knows* the Pattern and he, because of that, is able to do that magic "bending the Pattern" as his pleasure.

Edited by Zehphez
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The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

The bodyswap theory began during one of the original discussions about the possibility that the Third Man that Rand began to see in his dreams during tPoD was Moridin. It was based on an attempt by me to solve certain contradictions between the prophecies that relate to Rand's death--contradictions which I thought might be solvable if a link between Rand and Moridin truly did exist. I've always meant to update it, but I just couldn't find the energy. I figure now, with tGS still fresh in people’s minds, is as good a time as any.

 

Rand's Death; A Plethora of Prophecy!

There has been a lot of theories over the years to explain Rand's death. Each would take one of the various prophecies and run with it--the problem being that whilst these theories might fulfil one of the prophecies, they usually ignored the others. So that is what I looked at--rather than trying to answer a singular prophecy, I chose to see if the prophecies as a whole established any requirements or limitations to the Rand's Death Scenario. Before I state what my final deductions were, here is my compilation of relevant prophecies concerning Rand's death.

 

The Prophecies of Rand's Death

 

1. EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

2. EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

4. MIN VIEWING: three women standing over a funeral bier with [Rand] on it. [tEotW]

 

5. MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

6.1 NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255] [Which we know is Rand because of the next point.]

 

6.2 WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. [LOC: 19, Matters of Toh, 312]

 

7.1 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

7.2 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

The Luckers Pick

 

So, as I said, there are many individual answers to each of these prophecies, but if you look at the following three together you can actually begin to establish some restrictions and requirements for Rand’s death.

 

1. To live, you must die.

2. He who is dead yet lives.

3. [Alivia] is going to [help you die].

 

As a result of these three we can establish these following points.

 

1. Rand must actually die. The wording is too clear here to permit him faking his death, or people assuming that he is dead in the event that he disappears, or any derivation thereof. He must actually die (more on this in a second).

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive his death... and I mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resuscitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. Concurrent states. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives.

 

The Nature of Death

Or we could call this part the Nature of Life in the Wheel. All I'm really looking to point out is that due to the cycle of resurrection within the wheel a living person has three distinct parts; body, soul and the manifest personality of the current incarnation. In terms of the theory, the significant part of all this is that 'death' in the world of the wheel is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead.

 

In particular the Forsaken stand in as evidence for this--their bodies died, their souls continued, and even the manifest personality of that incarnation remained cohesive--yet they are still said to have died, and refer to their 'death' in the possessive--it was their death, not simply the death of their body.

 

The Body Swap

What is the Body Swap Theory?

 

So keeping all that in mind, let's look at the actual theory. It's actually pretty much what you expect--that Rand and Moridin will swap bodies using the link that formed between them when they crossed their balefire streams. Then Alivia will assist Rand-in-Moridins-body to kill Moridin-in-Rands-body thus 'helping him die' and fulfilling requirement two. At that point Rand will be dead, yet alive fulfilling requirement three, and a part of him will genuinely be dead, under the definitions of death established in this series, fulfilling requirement one.

 

So How Will the Swap Occur?

 

As I said above the link will be what facilitates the link, but taking a closer look at that link can tell us a bit about the how and why. Firstly, the link is growing stronger. From fuzzy perceptions to thoughts crossing over to Rand and Moridin's souls being yanked together for a dream Q&A in tGS we've seen a steady progression and development of this link since it first formed.

 

From there I would bring up the saidin factor. Whilst the link seems to have a certain passive element--with thoughts sliding through unasked--there is also a state to it which can specifically be activated by either Rand or Moridin seizing or releasing saidin. And it is just saidin--which is curious, one would think for Moridin it would be the True Power given that's what he was channeling, but it isn't--Demandred notes that Moridin after three thousand years of using both saidin and the TP has suddenly given up using saidin altogether--ergo, it is saidin which is causing the nausea in him. I wrote a full thread on my thoughts about why its saidin, and why they're experiencing nausea which can be found here if anyone is interested http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47417.0.html

 

For the sake of the body swap though, all we need to know is that saidin activates the link, and that the link is growing stronger as time passes. My suggestion therefore for how the Swap will happen is that Rand and Moridin will be fighting and Rand will cut Moridin off from the Dark One as he did in tDR. Now I'm aware RJ has said those black threads are not a connection to the Dark One, and that channeling the True Power is simply a matter of the Dark One giving his permission--but the fact remains that in tDR that did cut Ishamael off from the True Power.

 

I've speculated that those threads are the Chosen Mark, and are what enables Ishamael to ask--as in it serves as permission to ask. Whatever it is its involved in the process of asking and recieving in some way. I'm getting off track--the point is that Moridin will be cut off from the True Power, forcing him to draw saidin. Rand and Moridin both channeling saidin at the same time in proximity will activate the link so strongly they their souls will swap bodies.

 

Let's Clean House

Soul Transfer and Manipulation

 

One of the commonly raised objections/questions about the Body Swap is the question of the basis for suggesting a swap to even be possible. They point out that only the Dark One's been seen doing that sort of things, and ask what basis there is to suggest Rand and Moridin could even swap intentionally, much less accidentally without effort. The reply to that is that it’s a misconception to think the Dark One is the only one playing with souls. In fact Soul Manipulation is relatively common within the series. Here, off the top of my head.

 

1. Mordeth's soul survives his body’s death and inserts itself into Fain's body--and should have been able to oust Fain except for the Dark One's taint in him.

2. Dreamwalkers/Wolves--from when Perrin stayed in the Dream too long when hunting Faile we know that Dreamwalkers souls actually leave their body to enter TAR. As do Wolves when they sleep or die.

3. Ter’angreal--the above obviously means that the dream ter'angreal can pull peoples souls out of their bodies. Also the hedgehog that captured Faile captured her soul and pulled it almost all the way out of her body.

4. Machin Shin devours soul’s whole.

5. Draghkar also devour souls.

 

Of course none of these are specifically what we're suggesting here, they simply serve to establish that the sort of soul manipulation and transferral were talking about is not out of the norm for the Wheel of Time. They cumulatively establish precedent for the general art of Soul Transferral.

 

Conclusions

So that's it. I know a lot of you don't like the Body Swap. I don't really like it myself, but it fits. And, to date, it is the only one that does fit. But make of it what you will, and try not to rip into me too harshly. I'll cry. ;D

 

 

I'm with you in the body swap thing, and that's clear for me because I think that the one who must die is Lews Therin Telamon (the man they talked about in the prophecies *is* the Dragon Reborn), and that explains Rand cannot channel Saidin after that (he is not the Dragon Reborn anymore nor ta'veren and all of that). In the epilogue said something like: Rand al'Thor, a Sheppard from the Two Rivers.

 

That's the line, i mean, he now is Rand himself and only himself.

 

And about the pipe... well, he has seen the Pattern, he *knows* the Pattern and he, because of that, is able to do that magic "bending the Pattern" as his pleasure.

 

He is able to do the whole pipe thing because he wove the threads of creation itself to form mirror worlds in his battle with the creator.  It was done without use of any power, so once Rand has the knowledge of how to do that, what's a tiny flame to lite a pipe?

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Rand not able to channel seems to me due to he burning out with his last weave.

The pipe being lit seems to me that he was still taveren.

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Interesting thought about Rand.

 

I'm pretty sure that Perrin is no longer Ta'veran, I'm not sure about Mat, but given his planned adventures in Seanchan he probably is. I'm not sure that there's a need for Rand to still be Ta'veran with the Last Battle over, so I assumed he wasn't. I agree he's been burned out, from both the Powers...

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I'm pretty sure that Perrin is no longer Ta'veran, I'm not sure about Mat, but given his planned adventures in Seanchan he probably is.

You know, that sentence we have from those books makes me wonder. Don't have the quote handy but it's about Mat in the gutter having lost everything.

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