Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The Bodyswap Theory


Luckers
 Share

Recommended Posts

The bore has been unmade countless of times before. Some times the Dragon has fought for the Shadow. If the TP had been the key, then the DO wouldn't grant anyone the use of the TP, least of all Moridin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 166
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

There is nothing which says that the bore was drilled and closed the same way in every age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be impossible, IMO for the TP to be used, at least directly to seal the bore, even if it can be safely weilded there. Whether it comes through the link to Moridin, or through some other channeler who has been granted access, the TP is drawn from the Dark One, through the bore. You can't stand outside a door, reach through and close it from the inside, your arm (or the TP itself) would block the door and hold it open. I would say that, unless someone were to throw themself into the bore, and use the TP to close it from the inside (which would likely cause a whole host of additional problems), the TP isn't the answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be impossible, IMO for the TP to be used, at least directly to seal the bore, even if it can be safely weilded there. Whether it comes through the link to Moridin, or through some other channeler who has been granted access, the TP is drawn from the Dark One, through the bore. You can't stand outside a door, reach through and close it from the inside, your arm (or the TP itself) would block the door and hold it open. I would say that, unless someone were to throw themself into the bore, and use the TP to close it from the inside (which would likely cause a whole host of additional problems), the TP isn't the answer.

 

To be fair to the theory, the only thing LTT said was that something has to touch the DO. I believe the exact nature of the touch was not clarified. So for all we know, the point was to drive the DO away from the bore for a brief second, so that it could be sealed.

 

Or to use another analogy, the DO might have his arm through the door(bore) so it cannot be closed unless that arm can be forced to withdraw temporarily. The TP in this scenario would be a stick that Rand would whack DO's arm with, causing him to pull the arm inside for safety. Rand could then close the door with OP without ever having to touch the DO's arm with an "OP stick".

 

Without knowing the exact mechanism on how the sealing happened and what role touching the DO had, its impossible to say if using the TP would be helpfull or not. Though personally I do doubt thats how its going to happen. I think Rands ta'veren powers (possibly boosted by the presence of Mat and Perrin) and/or Rands new "mystical" powers will seal the bore. If the TP does play a role, it won't be against the DO personally.

Edited by Datakim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the bodyswap theory is highly likely, as so far it seems to be the only theory that allows Rand to die, then live again, that fits with all the garbled prophecies, viewings, and dreamings. I do not, however, believe that the bodyswap will occur between Rand and Moridin. As far as their link goes, I agree with "The Cyber Power" in saying that it would be a stretch on the imagination to allow the Rand-Moridin link to be so strong a random soul swap could occur, and I can find no other plot device that would facilitate or even foreshadow such a swap. I think that the bodyswap will probably be produced through the mystery 'flaw' in Callandor, and that it will occur with another male channeller, most likely Logain. I know this has probably been suggested before, but here's my version of the proceedings (mid TG):

 

1. Logain fighting bravely, standing on cliff, with circle connected to him, sending waves of fiery death down to Trollocs.

2. Oh noes! Surprise draukgr (sp) attack, Logain knocked over, and soul-sucked.

3. Draukgr interrupted, blasted off motionless body of Logain. Logain remains alive, but soulless, like an empty husk. Logain lies on ground, useless.

4. Rand has epic battle with Moridin using Callandor (Nyneave and Alivia help), then 'sheaths the sword' with Callandor to save the world and kill Shai'tan, (who is invading his mind and almost has control of his body), and dies from wounds on Shayol Ghul, body falls near Logain's.

5. Rand's soul transferred INTO Callandor, because that is Callandor's purpose, to absorb victims soul.

6. Someone (probably Nyn) has the bright idea of putting Rand into Logain's body.

7. Happily Ever After.

 

I know this theory has a LOT of holes, but it does serve to explain the glory Min sees around Logain, and the image of Logain stepping over Rand's body. I know that TG probably has about a 1.5% chance of ending up like that, but I do really like the idea of Callandor being able to absorb souls, and think that could really make the bodyswap theory possible.

Edited by FountOfThePower
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be impossible, IMO for the TP to be used, at least directly to seal the bore, even if it can be safely weilded there. Whether it comes through the link to Moridin, or through some other channeler who has been granted access, the TP is drawn from the Dark One, through the bore. You can't stand outside a door, reach through and close it from the inside, your arm (or the TP itself) would block the door and hold it open. I would say that, unless someone were to throw themself into the bore, and use the TP to close it from the inside (which would likely cause a whole host of additional problems), the TP isn't the answer.

 

To be fair to the theory, the only thing LTT said was that something has to touch the DO. I believe the exact nature of the touch was not clarified. So for all we know, the point was to drive the DO away from the bore for a brief second, so that it could be sealed.

 

Or to use another analogy, the DO might have his arm through the door(bore) so it cannot be closed unless that arm can be forced to withdraw temporarily. The TP in this scenario would be a stick that Rand would whack DO's arm with, causing him to pull the arm inside for safety. Rand could then close the door with OP without ever having to touch the DO's arm with an "OP stick".

 

Without knowing the exact mechanism on how the sealing happened and what role touching the DO had, its impossible to say if using the TP would be helpfull or not. Though personally I do doubt thats how its going to happen. I think Rands ta'veren powers (possibly boosted by the presence of Mat and Perrin) and/or Rands new "mystical" powers will seal the bore. If the TP does play a role, it won't be against the DO personally.

 

I agree that the TP will not be used to seal the bore. It may be used in some way to help against the DO in some other way, but it is impossible to use to seal the bore. As mentioned, LTT said that something needs to touch the DO, and this time it cant be the OP, because of the taint, but it makes no sense it being the TP. The TP IS the DO, at least a part of it.

 

It would be like the DO touching himself (haha......) Thus, nothing would be touching the DO in any case, because the TP is the DO. Keeping with the door analogy, it is like using the DO's hand to close the door. I am pretty certain that if someone even tried, the DO would just cut all access to the TP. I doubt that Rand could essentially control the DO, else it would have all been over long ago.

 

My own theory is that the thing that will touch the Bore is Rand himself, or more specifically "his blood on the rocks". Literally uses his own body/blood/life to provide a buffer. But that is for another discussion.

 

The bodyswap theory is, in theory, possible. I am unsure about where I stand on this, I can't really tell how it would go down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that the TP will not be used to seal the bore. It may be used in some way to help against the DO in some other way, but it is impossible to use to seal the bore. As mentioned, LTT said that something needs to touch the DO, and this time it cant be the OP, because of the taint, but it makes no sense it being the TP. The TP IS the DO, at least a part of it.

If the True Power was needed in order to "drive the DO out", then he'd never grant anyone access to the True Power (at least not after the Breaking). Therefore the Bore was sealed some other way in the past. I don't even think this was possible once. The True Power isn't any stronger than the One Power.

 

The DO can sense people channeling around Shayol Ghul. Channeling the True Power has consequences. Basically it's a very bad idea. They had better not try it.

 

 

Oh, and I am a believer in the bodyswap theory itself. I hope some variation of it happens. I am convinced that Rand will be alive for real at the end.

Edited by Nightstrike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that the TP will not be used to seal the bore. It may be used in some way to help against the DO in some other way, but it is impossible to use to seal the bore. As mentioned, LTT said that something needs to touch the DO, and this time it cant be the OP, because of the taint, but it makes no sense it being the TP. The TP IS the DO, at least a part of it.

If the True Power was needed in order to "drive the DO out", then he'd never grant anyone access to the True Power (at least not after the Breaking). Therefore the Bore was sealed some other way in the past. I don't even think this was possible once. The True Power isn't any stronger than the One Power.

 

The DO can sense people channeling around Shayol Ghul. Channeling the True Power has consequences. Basically it's a very bad idea. They had better not try it.

 

 

Yeah, basically what I think. I only said it may be used in some other way, like killing DF/FS because of the Semirhage incident proved that it does have SOME benefit. But yeah, impossible that the TP can be used in any way to DIRECTLY affect the DO.

 

Edit: one could argue the Semirhage incident was intentionally set up by the DO, but the fact is, because of the TP he escaped.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that the TP will not be used to seal the bore. It may be used in some way to help against the DO in some other way, but it is impossible to use to seal the bore. As mentioned, LTT said that something needs to touch the DO, and this time it cant be the OP, because of the taint, but it makes no sense it being the TP. The TP IS the DO, at least a part of it.

 

It would be like the DO touching himself (haha......) Thus, nothing would be touching the DO in any case, because the TP is the DO. Keeping with the door analogy, it is like using the DO's hand to close the door. I am pretty certain that if someone even tried, the DO would just cut all access to the TP. I doubt that Rand could essentially control the DO, else it would have all been over long ago.

 

Not necessarily. The DO is not a physical entity, which is obvious since he can give "pieces" of himself away in the form of TP. It is possible it could be used against him. To continue the analogy, TP could be considered to be like blood, and once he gives a part of that blood away its still a piece of his body, but no longer under his control. So while it does sound a bit strange to use a part of the DO against the DO, its not impossible. Though you are right that once the DO realised what was happening, he could instantly cut off access, so if the TP would be used it would have to be something instant. A single quick attack weave something, rather than a long complex thing that takes minutes/hours to create.

 

 

If the True Power was needed in order to "drive the DO out", then he'd never grant anyone access to the True Power (at least not after the Breaking). Therefore the Bore was sealed some other way in the past. I don't even think this was possible once. The True Power isn't any stronger than the One Power.

 

The TP does give advantages to the DOs followers, and since he only gives access to those utterly loyal such as Moridin, the risk of betrayal is small. Rand being able to channel True Power through Moridin may be an utterly bizarre and unexpected scenario which even the DO might not have anticipated. Heck, ordinarily using the TP would not even be possible at SG (if Rand can, its only because he uses it through Moridin to avoid frying instantly), so why would the DO be concerned about it being used against him.

 

As for strength, TP can be used to do things the OP cannot, but I think in this instance the most significant benefit would be to avoid any contact between OP and the DO to avoid another taint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The more I think about it, the more clear it becomes; and it has been hinted at pretty strongly:

 

No Power (OP/TP) can be used to seal the bore (unless someone (Perrin/Nyn)) can figure out a way to actualy Weave the Pattern, but lets discount that for now.

 

Therefore, the Bore has to be sealed by the Pattern itself (ie; the collective wills of the three ta'vern, plus whatever Power they use to get close enough).

 

So now we have good guys (3 Ta'vern and their supporters), bad guys (Moridin and his mind-trapped minions) all at or near SG. Because of the closeness to SG, Moridin can't use the TP, so he switches to massive amounts of the OP, and with Rand channeling and equally powerful amount; body swap.

 

Rand is now in Moridin, Moridin is now Rand. Team Liight is now really confused - Moridin in Rand recovers faster, and Matt flips a coin to decide which on Team Callandor should attack; they decide to attack Rand (now Moridin). Both Rand and Moridin are in shock from the swap, and Fain takes advantage of this to kill who he thinks is Rand (really moridin), killing/pushing him into the bore. Moridin (now rand), the callandor team, plus Perrin's hammer, and the combined forces of the ta'vern re-weave the Pattern over the Bore.

 

...

 

Bella walks off into the sunset. "I've won again, Lews Therin"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Though you are right that once the DO realised what was happening, he could instantly cut off access, so if the TP would be used it would have to be something instant. A single quick attack weave something, rather than a long complex thing that takes minutes/hours to create.

The True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly. Who would dare attack him there? Oh, and I do think it counts as "used at Shayol Ghul".

 

The TP does give advantages to the DOs followers, and since he only gives access to those utterly loyal such as Moridin, the risk of betrayal is small. Rand being able to channel True Power through Moridin may be an utterly bizarre and unexpected scenario which even the DO might not have anticipated. Heck, ordinarily using the TP would not even be possible at SG (if Rand can, its only because he uses it through Moridin to avoid frying instantly), so why would the DO be concerned about it being used against him.

Moridin's soul and the dragon's soul are intertwined in combat since "countless" turnings of the Wheel. Moridin's access to the True Power isn't so valuable that it's worth risking having the Bore undone. None of the 13 original Forsaken were - not even all of them together.

 

I only said it may be used in some other way, like killing DF/FS because of the Semirhage incident proved that it does have SOME benefit. But yeah, impossible that the TP can be used in any way to DIRECTLY affect the DO.

I disagree. The Semirhage incident proved that the use of the True Power is not an advantage. Edited by Nightstrike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

OK, that's really not at all what I meant :dry:. It's obvious his women don't love him for his looks or they would have left him ages ago: missing hand and ugly never healing wounds. The way I said makes it sounds like that though, sorry again. Ah... it's quite hard to put across in words what I mean, um... Alright. I'll just say, in my opinion, it would be... weird. Don't know how else to illustrate this with words. Also the bonding, does that affect the soul, the body or both? I thought it would be both because it senses emotions and physical pains. So, what would happen to that? OK, they could bond the new Rand again but still... I just think maybe there would be some complications?

 

 

I think the bond is to the soul, and the soul is connected to the body, hence the physical pain etc. I think if the body swap WERE to happen, the bond would remain intact, ergo, they would be able to feel they were still bonded to 'their Rand', but would be able to sense the new body. Therefore, they would have to believe it.

I agree, it would be creepy, but I think it would be plausible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the bodyswap theory is highly likely, as so far it seems to be the only theory that allows Rand to die, then live again, that fits with all the garbled prophecies, viewings, and dreamings. I do not, however, believe that the bodyswap will occur between Rand and Moridin. As far as their link goes, I agree with "The Cyber Power" in saying that it would be a stretch on the imagination to allow the Rand-Moridin link to be so strong a random soul swap could occur, and I can find no other plot device that would facilitate or even foreshadow such a swap. I think that the bodyswap will probably be produced through the mystery 'flaw' in Callandor, and that it will occur with another male channeller, most likely Logain. I know this has probably been suggested before, but here's my version of the proceedings (mid TG):

 

1. Logain fighting bravely, standing on cliff, with circle connected to him, sending waves of fiery death down to Trollocs.

2. Oh noes! Surprise draukgr (sp) attack, Logain knocked over, and soul-sucked.

3. Draukgr interrupted, blasted off motionless body of Logain. Logain remains alive, but soulless, like an empty husk. Logain lies on ground, useless.

4. Rand has epic battle with Moridin using Callandor (Nyneave and Alivia help), then 'sheaths the sword' with Callandor to save the world and kill Shai'tan, (who is invading his mind and almost has control of his body), and dies from wounds on Shayol Ghul, body falls near Logain's.

5. Rand's soul transferred INTO Callandor, because that is Callandor's purpose, to absorb victims soul.

6. Someone (probably Nyn) has the bright idea of putting Rand into Logain's body.

7. Happily Ever After.

 

I know this theory has a LOT of holes, but it does serve to explain the glory Min sees around Logain, and the image of Logain stepping over Rand's body. I know that TG probably has about a 1.5% chance of ending up like that, but I do really like the idea of Callandor being able to absorb souls, and think that could really make the bodyswap theory possible.

 

I see where you're going and it seems plausible, albeit with holes but hey, no idea/speculation is ever perfect. But for some reason now I have the image of Rand pointing Callandor at someone and saying 'give me your soul!'... which would obviously never happen :laugh: (insane Rand perhaps?).

I think the glory aura of Logain will be perhaps he dies protecting Rand at TG or maybe he takes a crippling wound to protect Rand or save the ground forces in TG while Rand's busting up the DO and trying to seal the bore or whatever he's planning. The aura seems to me not that Logain serves as a new Rand but perhaps a prominent figure in the big, darkfriend vs. light (humans) ground battle; since this renewed glory comes from the fact that now Logain can channel again courtesy of Nyn (that in itself could be the glory since Min was wondering how the hell Logain could have any glory if he can't even channel anymore).

The flaw in Callandor I thought perhaps might be it's volatility e.g. won't do things with the OP you want to, lashes out randomly with blasts of the OP, etc. Maybe, absorbing souls of the user or sapping the user's life force or something could be one.

Hmm.. but the image of Logain stepping over Rand... is Rand dead in this or not? If he's not could be Logain stepping up to the plate or sacrificing himself against DO's minions or DO himself for Rand to get back up and recover.

 

This body swap idea is too complicated for WoT. I think the link was formed between Rand and Moridin to form a plot device for Rand to access the TP which is going to be used to seal the bore.

 

How is Moridin's body better than Rand?. With the black flecks increasing in frequency it is wonder Moridin can even see properly.

 

Agreed. Not sure about the TP used to seal the bore, sounds reasonable but nothing, for me, to say it could not happen in some round about way with some other complications. But the body swap idea is too complex for WoT, and Moridin is just as damaged as Rand. At least Rand has eyesight, can't say much for Moridin. Or, throwing something in here which does sound a bit radical, perhaps because Rand's soul is of the DR he can morph a body to his original self or change bits of it maybe...? Some mystical voo-doo OP/TP ability? One thing though, would Rand really want to be stuck in Moridin's or Logain's or whoever's body? Have to think about that...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is Moridin's body better than Rand?. With the black flecks increasing in frequency it is wonder Moridin can even see properly.

 

 

QUESTION

 

I think it was the chapter when Moridin was observing with a cloak of fancloth. His vision was blurred by a rain of black spots.

QUESTION

 

But it didn't affect his vision.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

It didn't affect his vision. You're aware of it, but it's not like there is blackness between you...

 

Moridin's body is just fine, no comparison to how wrecked Rand is. BTW we have still not heard anything about what happened with Rand's eye site. He is def worse off than Moridin in that respect along with everything else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly. Who would dare attack him there? Oh, and I do think it counts as "used at Shayol Ghul".

 

We don't know that for certain do we? RJ did not specify how the frying would occur. The way I see it there are two obvious possibilities.

 

1)Since you are opening yourself to True Power at Shayol Ghul, which is the very source of TP, you are instantly filled with the power far beyond your ability to channel. Basically its like the TP is at high pressure at SG, and the moment you create a conduit to it, the TP rushes in and basically overloads you. In this instance, having someone else channel TP away from SG would result in that person getting a controllable amount of TP, and if that person then directs that controllable flow to someone at SG, the frying is avoided. Basically, in this scenario Moridin would act as a sort of "TP relay" for Rand.

 

2)The second possibility is that it is the nature of True Power rather than the quantity that fries you. Maybe TP is somehow inherently stronger at SG, and even a tiny amount of it would be equal to huge amounts of OP. In this scenario it does not matter if Rand channels from the Bore directly or from Moridin, he dies either way.

 

However since RJ did not specify, the option is left for it to be the first possibility, in which case Rand could channel TP via Moridin without violating RJs words.

 

 

Moridin's soul and the dragon's soul are intertwined in combat since "countless" turnings of the Wheel. Moridin's access to the True Power isn't so valuable that it's worth risking having the Bore undone. None of the 13 original Forsaken were - not even all of them together.

 

There is a big difference between the ordinary soul intertwining which just means that the people tend to be born at the same time, and actually being somehow linked through a balefire collision. LTT and Ishy were just as intertwined in the pattern, but they had no link like Rand and Moridin do. And the "connection" (if it can even be called that) between LTT and Ishy certainly did not allow LTT to channel TP. Whatever the link between Rand and Moridin is, its not a normal and ordinary thing, and as such not something the DO would necessarily have counted on when he was giving TP to his followers.

 

 

I disagree. The Semirhage incident proved that the use of the True Power is not an advantage.

 

Rand using TP might or might not have been expected, and it might or might not have been an advantage

 

Like I said above, its possible that Rand using TP was a totally unexpected thing even to the DO. However it is clear that Rand was corrupted by that use, so in a way it was helpful to the DO, even if Rand did use it to escape from Semirhage. Heck, strictly speaking we don't even know for sure IF the TP did come from Moridin. The possibility is that the DO gave Rand access directly to corrupt him. That was obviously the plan all along, and having the lights champion using the very essence of the Dark One was probably a big win to the shadow, and likely contributed to Rand going totally insane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is only one certain thing here for sure. The bore will be closed off by the pattern. To do that one has to deal with the power that's stopping it from doing so. The DO.

 

Someone or something should drive the DO away from the bore lanfear created. So the question arises what is it? Saidin was tainted last time when it came into contact with the DO.

 

There has to be something else.

 

 

By the way, the bodyswap theory i think is a complete red herrring. This swapping of souls and stff is just too much and too contrived in WOT world.

 

 

Moridin will die. That much is for certain.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, the bodyswap theory i think is a complete red herrring. This swapping of souls and stff is just too much and too contrived in WOT world.

 

To be fair, its not at all contrived. We have already seen several cases of souls possessing bodies that are not theirs.

 

In the very first book, we had Mordeth who had the ability to possess a person. The only reason it did not work on Fain, was because Fain had been touched by the DO which caused a conflict with Mordeths powers.

 

Then there is the resurrection of the forsaken. Thats basically exactly a soul swap. The DO finds a body, gets rid of the current soul so its empty, and then implants the soul of the forsaken in the body that is not theirs. So there are atleast two canon cases where a soul can infact take control of the body of someone else. Rand transferring his soul to Moridins body is not much different from that.

 

I don't know if it will happen or not, but its certainly possible and even plausible thing to happen in the WoT world. The groundwork for this kind of soul possession has been set up, so if it does happen it won't be something pulled from nothing, nor will it violate the established rules of the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then there is the resurrection of the forsaken. Thats basically exactly a soul swap. The DO finds a body, gets rid of the current soul so its empty, and then implants the soul of the forsaken in the body that is not theirs. So there are atleast two canon cases where a soul can infact take control of the body of someone else. Rand transferring his soul to Moridins body is not much different from that.

 

Luc/Isam as well...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moridin's soul and the dragon's soul are intertwined in combat since "countless" turnings of the Wheel. Moridin's access to the True Power isn't so valuable that it's worth risking having the Bore undone. None of the 13 original Forsaken were - not even all of them together.

 

There is a big difference between the ordinary soul intertwining which just means that the people tend to be born at the same time, and actually being somehow linked through a balefire collision. LTT and Ishy were just as intertwined in the pattern, but they had no link like Rand and Moridin do. And the "connection" (if it can even be called that) between LTT and Ishy certainly did not allow LTT to channel TP. Whatever the link between Rand and Moridin is, its not a normal and ordinary thing, and as such not something the DO would necessarily have counted on when he was giving TP to his followers.

You're missing the point. If this is the first time they have the Balefire incident, then you can't count on Rand's connection to Moridin for access to the True Power. It's been done some other way in the past. If it can be done ANY other way, then that is the only right way to do it. Using the True Power is an extremely bad idea. If True Power was a way to do it, then noone would have access to the True Power by now. The DO would have cut everybody off, one way or another. The Bore is more valuable than all the Forsaken.

 

(I hardly need to mention that I don't think it would work anyway, do I?)

Edited by Nightstrike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moridin's body is just fine, no comparison to how wrecked Rand is. BTW we have still not heard anything about what happened with Rand's eye site. He is def worse off than Moridin in that respect along with everything else.

 

I'm sure Nae'bliss said that Rand's eyesight was a temporary injury caused by Semirhage's fire attack... and if we haven't heard anything about it doesn't that suggest maybe it's back to normal or pretty much almost there? And about Rand being wrecked, OK he's lost a hand, has two not big but not small crossed wounds and.... that's it (very slightly impaired eyesight which is only temporary if we add that in as well). It's not like he can't walk, has to be carried everywhere or is paralysed or something. That would be wrecked for damn sure. He's still breathing, living, doing stuff he needs to do. It's not like anyone's said 'Hey Rand, no offense, but you look messed up' or is thinking along the same lines when they see him.

 

 

 

By the way, the bodyswap theory i think is a complete red herrring. This swapping of souls and stff is just too much and too contrived in WOT world.

 

To be fair, its not at all contrived. We have already seen several cases of souls possessing bodies that are not theirs.

 

In the very first book, we had Mordeth who had the ability to possess a person. The only reason it did not work on Fain, was because Fain had been touched by the DO which caused a conflict with Mordeths powers.

 

Then there is the resurrection of the forsaken. Thats basically exactly a soul swap. The DO finds a body, gets rid of the current soul so its empty, and then implants the soul of the forsaken in the body that is not theirs. So there are atleast two canon cases where a soul can infact take control of the body of someone else. Rand transferring his soul to Moridins body is not much different from that.

 

The resurrection of forsaken is not soul swapping, I'd say it body stealing specifically by the DO. Rand transferring his soul is different, if it happens, since Moridin's not an empty husk and I don't see the DO or anyone else ripping his soul from his body. Plus, what happen's to Moridin's if somehow Rand's soul transfers? Is it pushed aside, destroyed, forced into another body, maybe Rand's or someone else's? There's groundwork for soul/body stealing and possessing yeah, but for two people alive, in control and swapping? We don't really know what happens then or for how long it lasts or how it can even come about. But I do see the argument, soul... 'stuff' is certainly part of WoT and it is plausible it may play a part in aMoL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's still breathing, living, doing stuff he needs to do. It's not like anyone's said 'Hey Rand, no offense, but you look messed up' or is thinking along the same lines when they see him.

Having two never-healing wounds in your side that make people hiss and say "how can he keep on" counts for a whole lot.

 

 

 

To be fair, its not at all contrived. We have already seen several cases of souls possessing bodies that are not theirs.

 

In the very first book, we had Mordeth who had the ability to possess a person. The only reason it did not work on Fain, was because Fain had been touched by the DO which caused a conflict with Mordeths powers.

 

Then there is the resurrection of the forsaken. Thats basically exactly a soul swap. The DO finds a body, gets rid of the current soul so its empty, and then implants the soul of the forsaken in the body that is not theirs. So there are atleast two canon cases where a soul can infact take control of the body of someone else. Rand transferring his soul to Moridins body is not much different from that.

The resurrection of forsaken is not soul swapping, I'd say it body stealing specifically by the DO. Rand transferring his soul is different, if it happens, since Moridin's not an empty husk and I don't see the DO or anyone else ripping his soul from his body. Plus, what happen's to Moridin's if somehow Rand's soul transfers? Is it pushed aside, destroyed, forced into another body, maybe Rand's or someone else's? There's groundwork for soul/body stealing and possessing yeah, but for two people alive, in control and swapping? We don't really know what happens then or for how long it lasts or how it can even come about. But I do see the argument, soul... 'stuff' is certainly part of WoT and it is plausible it may play a part in aMoL.

The man said "it's not all", and the example you talk about is a "swap" from the perspective of the Forsaken in question (or from "the body's perspective, funnily enough - even though bodies have no real perspective). Swapping one body to another ... Suttree mentions a couple of examples of living in different bodies. So I agree with "it's not all contrived" (at least it's not in this fiction). Edited by Nightstrike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know it's too contrived. At least you can understand DO putting souls in bodies of people. Lord of the grave and that.

 

But rand flying into moridin's body and vice versa?

 

Sounds like absolute rubbish

 

Min's viewing of of rand merging withsome else is the only thing gives credence to this theory based on the fact that rand will survive the merger and moridin dies

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know it's too contrived. At least you can understand DO putting souls in bodies of people. Lord of the grave and that.

 

But rand flying into moridin's body and vice versa?

 

Sounds like absolute rubbish

 

Min's viewing of of rand merging withsome else is the only thing gives credence to this theory based on the fact that rand will survive the merger and moridin dies

 

No less so than Mordeth's soul flying into Fain's body. Or the Hedgehog ter'angreal pulling Faile's soul out of her body and Perrin putting it back--which by the way is what happens when a person enters the Dream too heavily.

 

Soul manipulation and transferal is far from rare in the world of the wheel, nor is it a skill that the Great Lord of the Grave holds copyright over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having two never-healing wounds in your side that make people hiss and say "how can he keep on" counts for a whole lot.

 

The man said "it's not all", and the example you talk about is a "swap" from the perspective of the Forsaken in question (or from "the body's perspective, funnily enough - even though bodies have no real perspective). Swapping one body to another ... Suttree mentions a couple of examples of living in different bodies. So I agree with "it's not all contrived" (at least it's not in this fiction).

 

When they say 'how can he keep on' they mean how can he stand the pain. Like I said, he's not hobbling or limping like an old man with some hip joint problem, he's walking normally, doing everythingnormally. Yes he's far from perfectly healthy but he sure as hell ain't 'wrecked'.

 

Yes but the thing is the people losing their soul are not in control when this happens. They are not wanting to swap/gain souls, they did not intend to swap/gain souls: it was forced or ripped out of them by a person such as Mordeth or someone like the DO and someone else's planted in. Luc/Isam is a merge of two beings to make 'Slayer', not a swap: I'm fine with merging. That sounds very likely in WoT definitely. Faile's soul being ripped away by the hedgehog: not intended, once again, by Faile. The ter'angreal trap did the work there. There is soul movement and transferring, I believe that, I'm fine with it and I think there will definitely be some of it or a lot more of it in aMoL. But swapping, I'm not saying 'totally BS, wrong, wrong': I just don't see how it would work or fit in. I mean it could be random or maybe there's some OP weave for it or something else, but so far I haven't seen anything resembling a controlled, agreed or random body swap: i.e. two souls in bodies being swapped by the two people using OP or by someone else or because they have some powerful link.

 

Moridin and Rand have this powerful link but it sounds like an extended/more complex warder bond. Moridin feels tired when Rand was, Rand sees what Moridin sees (not sure about Rand and touching the TP, I won't get into that; I'm not sure how to explain that myself, maybe it's because of Moridin, maybe not), Moridin and Rand sharing dreams. Rather than swapping, it sounds like their souls are slowly getting closer to merging. And whoever's soul is stronger or purer or some other greater determining factor will 'win' the struggle or something along those lines. Yes maybe a swap will happen, I'm not counting this out but I feel merging will be the likely outcome if there is any soul 'moving' to be done in aMoL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Its been a while since I've engaged in these arguments, but I think the body swap is quite plausible. For one, as has been stated about three bajillion times, the OP has shown the ability to play with people's souls through the creation of Ter'Angreal (The dream rings, the hedgehog, etc.). Second we know that channeling is an ability of the soul, as evidenced by the Forsaken coming back, and in one case a female wielding Saidin when the DO got lazy and couldn't find a dude to put him back in. There is even multiple instances of multiple souls housed in one body, soul merging, and soul ejecting, as we know from Luke/Isam and Fain. Considering they are already pulling bits of each other across the link, which is getting stronger and is without a doubt tied to Saidin, why is it inconceivable that when in each others presence they go the whole nine? There is even evidence suggesting that the bodies themselves are like conduits for the power, again through the Forsaken being reborn and needing to be brought back into channelers, and Logan's healing. Nyn reestablished a bridge between his body and his ability to channel. Continuing with the bridge metaphor, Rand and Moradin's soul get sucked into the link through intense use of Saidin in close proximity, get lost, and go down the wrong bridge. It doesn't have to be an unconscious thing, its not like Rand is saying "Well... I feel like thinking my archenemies thoughts... Hrrngh!" when he does think them.

 

As a side note I think Fain will be used as the buffer to seal the DO's prison. Mordeth's taint and the DO have been shown to repel each other several times in the past, as can be seen through fain's existence, setting the two wounds against eachother, and of course the cleansing of Saidin.

Edited by Kura
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...