Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
CTKShadow

The Davram Bashere darkfriend theory

Recommended Posts

I'd also like to point out that (even though he's a different guy with different abilities) Padan Fain can tell if someone is a DF at a glance:

 

There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads. LoC 28 Letters

 

Fain only has to glance to see a DF...so it's likely (though I know not proven) that Rand can at least do it similarly...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is not just that Rand can spot DFs by just looking, our friendly neighborhood DFs also have tough time looking at Rand. I think the Light in him blinds them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to give spoilers away or anything (and I'm sure I'm late to this party as probably it has been posted here at least 100 times and I'm not reading to find out tongue.gif) but let me assure you, he is not DF. 100.1% and you can take it to the bank!biggrin.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear.. Well, unless you're a beta reader for AMoL..

 

I've read all the books up to and including ToM. I think I know what you have in mind.. and if you read the thread, you will find that I have addressed the point. Not conclusively in some minds, granted; but there is IMO considerable room for doubt.

 

Have a look at post #49, page 3 of this thread.

Edited by FarShainMael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear.. Well, unless you're a beta reader for AMoL..

In which case, this definitely does fall into the scope of our anti-spoiler policy :tongue:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear.. Well, unless you're a beta reader for AMoL..

 

I've read all the books up to and including ToM. I think I know what you have in mind.. and if you read the thread, you will find that I have addressed the point. Not conclusively in some minds, granted; but there is IMO considerable room for doubt.

 

Have a look at post #49, page 3 of this thread.

 

would you like to join my "taim was demandred but RJ changed his mind later and is just lying to cover his ass" tea party?

 

you'd fit in :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We know that Rand's spent lots of time offscreen with Bashere and we have a scene right there, and then another one right after, in Tear with Bashere in close conference with him.

It's like the hints RJ dropped earlier in the series with ref to Danelle and the Asmo killing- Brandon is telling us that Bashere is not a DF.

 

As to being stunned, DB doesn't believe Rand would take on 1/2 million or so Shadowspawn on his own - that doesn't happen often either.

 

Not believing it, I would accept. Being stunned into speechlessness - a state which in warfare would leave him wide open to attack - I wouldn't. He's a Great Captain FHS!

 

:rolleyes:

 

I just came across this in my re-read:

 

“It is enough that you know I am Aes Sedai, Tenobia. This is my sister, Aviendha, of the Nine Valleys Sept of the Taardad Aiel.” Aviendha smiled at them, or at least bared her teeth. “This is my Warder, Lady Birgitte Trahelion.” Birgitte made a short bow, her golden braid swaying.

 

One announcement caused as many startled looks as the other — an Aiel woman was her sister? her Warder was a woman? — but Tenobia and the others ruled lands on the edge of the Blight, where nightmares truly might walk abroad in daylight and anyone who let themselves be startled too greatly was as good as dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok...so I've seen this casually thrown out there a bit, but not really gone into in depth. I personally don't think Bashere is a DF...however anything is possible right? I'm never completely closed off to an idea. However, I think if anything at all is going on with Bashere, he has been compelled by Graendal.

 

I know there isn't a whole lot to back this up, but one thing sticks out at me, more so, it kind of just smacked me full in the face today. I'm constantly rereading the series, and just this morning finished Fires of Heaven again. I think that for a long time everyone was so caught up in who killed Asmodean, that they missed the rather obvious correlation. Asmodean was killed while going to get a jug of wine by G. Bashere had just shown up with a jug of wine and two goblets, ready to introduce himself to Rand and immediately swear allegiance and offer his services.

 

Now, I said it was thin, but it seems like a very real possibility to me. We all have REAL evidence of G using lots of compulsion on people, and it being compulsion that is meant to be subtle and last for very long periods of time. What better way to get a dagger to Rand's throat than planting a compelled Great Captain right next to him?

 

Anyways, just my 2 cents. I personally think it's a much greater probability than Bashere actually being a DF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

personally i don't think he has been a DF especially since Rand became Buda. he would have seen it in him, and Bashere would have reacted like his relative and wife that were DFs in the keep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh dear.. Well, unless you're a beta reader for AMoL.. I've read all the books up to and including ToM. I think I know what you have in mind.. and if you read the thread, you will find that I have addressed the point. Not conclusively in some minds, granted; but there is IMO considerable room for doubt. Have a look at post #49, page 3 of this thread.
would you like to join my "taim was demandred but RJ changed his mind later and is just lying to cover his ass" tea party? you'd fit in :)

 

i'm in; i've been saying the same thing for months now. I also think RJ meant Olvir to be Gaidial Cain reborn, but changed it mid-stream due to fan speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh dear.. Well, unless you're a beta reader for AMoL.. I've read all the books up to and including ToM. I think I know what you have in mind.. and if you read the thread, you will find that I have addressed the point. Not conclusively in some minds, granted; but there is IMO considerable room for doubt. Have a look at post #49, page 3 of this thread.
would you like to join my "taim was demandred but RJ changed his mind later and is just lying to cover his ass" tea party? you'd fit in :)

 

i'm in; i've been saying the same thing for months now. I also think RJ meant Olvir to be Gaidial Cain reborn, but changed it mid-stream due to fan speculation.

 

Jesus not again :rolleyes:

 

Don't even wan't to get in to Dem/Taim once more but in terms of Gaidal the age thing never worked. Olver was always too old. RJ knew this and made it clear from the start.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, Torkumen is also a Borderlander trained not to be startled, etc.

If it didn't work for him visavis Rand even when he couldn't see Rand, it wouldn't work for Bashere when he's looking closely at Rand doing his stuff at exactly the same instant.

Apart from the fact that Rand-DB have been in constant contact and planning stuff together and must have looked into each other's eyes multiple times off-screen.

I think if you want to hypothesise DB as a DF, you will have to assume that he becomes a DF after ToM and he isn't a DF at this point of the narrative.

That may make sense in the context of Min's vision - If Bashere turns DF = he is not a DF so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In ToM, when Rand starts picking out DFs by merely looking at them, Bashere has been at his side all the time. Don't you think Rand would have caught him, if he'd been a DF?

 

Moreover, in "Storm of Light" (ToM), when Rand goes for the Trollocs in Maradon, we saw the impact that it can have on a DF through Tenobia's relative. On the other hand, Bashere had looked at it directly without even wincing. In fact, he was admiring Rand's strength.

 

These two points are enough to diffuse Bashere as a DF.

 

About "something dark" Min foresaw, I think Bashere and Tenobia will die in the end, and as everyone as pointed out, Perrin will become the king of Saldaea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Troilen: While we have it from ToM Glossary that Graendal was 'responsible for' the death of Asmo, she may not have been the one who actually killed him; just as she was 'responsible for' the death of Aran'gar, but it was Rand's balefire that actually caused that death. If it turns out that Bashere was involved in Asmo's death in any way ay all, perhaps that's why RJ and Brandon are so close-mouthed about Asmo's killer.....

 

Only thing is, the chances are that Asmo was balefired - and AFAWK, Bashere can't channel...

 

Re the 'startled Borderlander' problem; Torkumen wasn't 'startled', he was overwhelmed, by the 'Light that eats at {his} mind'. I don't think Bashere was startled either, but also came close to being overwhelmed, by the side-effects of Rand's rage against the gathering forces of the Shadow against Maradon.

 

Sharaman makes a valid point: Rand and DB have (apparently?) been working closely together since VoG; Rand should have noticed him by now. But I am reminded of that Wise Ones' dream of 'a man standing by {Rand's} side with a dagger to {his} throat, but {he} did not see him' (LoC19). I don't think we know yet who this is.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a grey man shortly after that Dream, if memory serves. If not, there are quite a few very good candidates, not the least of them Taim. The Dream would almost be redundant.

 

And, regarding Asmodean, ToM was to reveal to us his killer. What we got with Moridin and SH doesn't say that Graendal did the deed herself, but the fact that it's all we got does. Regardless, didn't RJ once said an analysis he saw online was right on the money? If I'm not much mistaken, that would be the Sherlock Holmes analysis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Mowbray: go back to about page 3 of this thread. You aren't the first to make this point, and I have tried to address it.

 

@yoniyo: I'm not entirely satisfied that it was either the grey man or Taim. The dream was about a man by Rand's side which to me suggests a close associate, which the grey man was not. As for Taim, there has been friction between him and Rand from their first meeting. In LoC3, Rand tells Taim that he's trusting him with recruitment and training of male channellers, and the LTT-voice says, 'Don't trust! Never trust! Trust is death!' Later, when Rand visits Taim at the Black Tower (LoC42), the LTT-voice raves that 'he should have killed him (Taim?) long ago', and Rand suppresses that urge. So I don't think it's a case of Rand not 'seeing' Taim as a threat.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He doesn't see the real threat, the recruiting of channeling men in his name to fight against the Light. For all of his hatred of Taim, he mistrusts that hate as the rumblings of a madman, and gives Taim a free hand.

 

Regardless, if the metaphorical danger is a dagger, the assassin would have to stand by Rand's side to use it. And, as I said before, this is LoC. There's no shortage of dangers Rand was blind to, right about then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't trying to imply that Bashere was the one to balefire Asmo. Moreso I was suggesting that perhaps this was when Graendal had an opportunity to Compel Bashere, and shortly after sending him on his way to Rand with the wine, Asmo happens upon her and meets his demise.

 

Now, I understand what you're saying about G only being responsible for the death of Asmo doesn't necessarily mean she pulled the trigger herself, however in this case I believe she did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah ok! That's an interesting twist. DB is under post-hypnotic command - he isn't a DF precisely and knowingly.

So unless the Compulsion triggers, he won't react with DF aversion to Rand's new "aura". Once it does trigger, he could turn., This would fit with Min's viewing perhaps.

Edited by Sharaman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not sure if anyone mentioned this or not

But about Davram been a darkfriend, i do not hink he is, as Min had that viewing...that if he or Dobraine were to die then Rand will have his plans and the high lords/land delayed or even take a step back -

not as big of a fail as if Perrin or Mat to die, but enough to cause a major problem of uniting the people

 

this leads me to believe that Davram is not a darkfriend

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you guys focusing on DF being speechless are being silly. What Rand did, hell what he proposed to do was Insane. Walking nightmares is one thing, facing those nightmares is quite another, but claiming you're going to stop an army of Shadowspawn that all the borderland armies gathered together would have trouble facing is enough to leave ANYONE dumbfounded.

 

I mean, The Pope himself could be argued to be the most dedicated Holy man in the world, and no miricle should shock him, but I bet if the Lord himself stepped down during service and said BEHOLD, he'd be dumbfounded.

 

You can't prepare yourself for somethings, no one is immune to shock and awe. No one at all. Borderlander or not, hell DB could have been an Ashman of the highest order, wielder of the power on a level just below Rand, winner of thousands of battles, and that would still set him back. In face, who was the Ashaman who started crying saying what Rand did was so beautiful? I mean even he was taken aback! (Was it Jahar Narishma?, a borderlander himself) I can't recall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...