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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

The Unseen Eyes of Tel'Aran'Rhiod

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Moghedien knew what was going on in Caemlyn at that very moment, even though she was spying on Nynaeve and Siuan. Sure, it's not a stretch to believe that she just came from Caemlyn and checked in on Nynaeve before nappy-time.

 

But, you and I know that flies are commonly thought of as the DO's spies*. Rands knows it. Nynaeve and Suian know it. Why don't they reflect on it?

 

In that same chapter (55), Rand's POV:

He scanned the tile roofs and tower-tops. No ravens. He had not seen a raven in some time, though he heard of other men killing them.
So it's not like he's oblivious to the DO's spies.

 

* IIRC flies are included in Randland folklore, But upon second thought I might be compounding it with Christian mythology (Satan's spies, Beelzebub, etc.). If so, and if not Moghedien's, they could be the spies of someone/something else entirely.

Edited by googly

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Alright. Just want to let you know now, that what I'm about to post is long, will have a lot of quotes and may confusse you. Also, Im not quite sure what it is Im getting at here by posting all of this, but somehow I believe that it is all connected and that maybe someone here is cleaver enough to "connect all of the dots"

 

The quote below comes from the same interview that Luckers originally quoted from but, he didnt include all of the interview, im about to include more of it.

 

Matt: Are there any other sources of Powers either within the Pattern or outside of the Wheel? Are there any sources like…

 

Brandon: ...sources much like the One Power and True Power?

 

Matt: Right.

 

Brandon: I will have to RAFO that.

 

After that then it went into this (of course excluding Luckers comments)

 

The Evil That Twisted Mordeth and Gave Birth to Shadar Logoth

 

Brandon has told us that Mordeth, in searching for ways to combat the Shadow, encountered an entirely different evil which changed him into what he is, and is currently driving him.

 

Matt: Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"…

 

Brandon: ...he was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get…

 

Matt: ...previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

 

Brandon: ...Yeah...

 

Matt: ...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

 

Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it […] He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evils things that are old in a similar way…

 

Matt: ...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

 

Brandon: He did.

 

Matt: He found one or multiple?

 

Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

 

[Hah - Maybe I should have asked if Mordeth was under the influence of the Finns...or at the very least if they were one of the powers he found in his quest... ]

 

Matt: Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

 

Brandon: Yeah. Through him. yes. And even through his presence.

 

So, this evil exists seperate of him, is driving him (or perhaps was before Fain's introduction and the presence of DO evil--it has been stated Fain is unique), and is the source of all the corruption related to Shadar Logoth.

 

Later on in the same interview this is said:

 

 

Matt: Ok. Is Mordeth’s power, this evil power, comparable to the One Power and True Power? Is it a power that can be woven?

 

Brandon: No, it’s more something along the lines of Perrin’s wolf power, something more natural, you couldn’t weave Mordeth.

 

Matt: Ok, so it’s more of a natural…

 

Brandon: ...it’s more of a natural, though it is unnatural. It’s an unnatural natural thing…

 

Matt: ...because Jordan was really particular about…he tried to have a logic-based system as it pertained to the One Power. Is this power more supernatural in sense than it is based on physics?

 

Brandon: Let’s say more instinctual, alright?

 

Matt: Ok…which brings up the following questions about the Wheel and its relationship to souls, talents, abilities and channeling. Is the Wheel responsible for giving or weaving in Talents and Abilities to a particular life, or are they like channeling, attached to the soul?

 

Brandon: That’s an excellent question. I’m going to have to RAFO that…it’s actually more of a MAFO. What’s your asking is would someone who is reborn into the Pattern will have the same talents again?

 

Matt: Right. Or does…the Wheel, we obviously know it is very capable of affecting the Pattern, so the question is does it give and take when it comes to abilities and talents it needs?

 

Brandon: Yeah, right, I will have to MAFO that.

 

 

In my thread:The Other 5 Ages and Other Powers I commented with what has been posted of the interview with this:

 

So, we know of only two ages for sure. The Age of Legends and the current age, The Third Age. So what about the other 5? The only thing I can began to imagine about them is that there will be "other powers" not necessarily sources like the One and True Powers but, other powers for sure. Im not certain if people will be able to channel the One Power either in future ages... Im not saying it wont exsist, im saying that maybe there will be an age were no one is born with the ability to channel. But its also possible that there will be no such age.

 

So, these "other powers" we dont know exactly what these will be but we do know that some of these powers are evil (Mordeth's, some neutral (Perrin's), and some im assuming good. Maybe there is another power like the true source, but I doubt it.

 

What I am trying to point out here is this: we only know of two ages, the other 5 could have nothing to do with the Dark One. Yes, the eternal war between good and evil will continue, but it doesn't have to relate to the dark one; as the interview above just proved, there are other evils out there.

 

Your thoughts? Theories about the other 5 ages? Big question here: Do you think that the wheel of time series can continue but just set in a different age?

 

Side note: Link to the full interview: http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2714

 

And later on in the thread I replied to a few comments with this:

 

i have always seen Fains powers as something similar to channeling. I AM NOT SAYING FAIN CAN CHANNEL. But while his ability was somewhat described as an old thing like Perrins Wolfbrother ability, an old thing.

 

Whether another entity was involved I dont know, but I see it as a very strong possibility

 

Exactly. Thats what I am trying to get at. We know that each age has a vague set pattern to follow. We only know of what happens in two of the seven ages for sure. So wouldn't it be possible for the dark one to be sealed away for five ages and then when the "Age of Legends" comes again, his influence spreads into the world again. But during the other five ages there is some other entity or maybe multiple different entities of evil, such as the evil of Shadiar Logath. And because the pattern knows that this new age is coming it starts preparing for it, thats why we see people with all these "new" special abilities; Min's views, Wolf Brothers, The Sniffer, ect.

 

See, I believe that Mordeth actually found one of these entities or maybe its just some kind of power, but anyways, he found it and tapped into it somehow, much like how Lanfear tapped into the bore. The difference is however, he didn't release it into the world, only into himself, but it is contagious. I think, that in one of the other ages, that that same evil will be release on a widespread.

 

Any thoughts or questions on my theory? Please comment, I would really like to hear what people think of this.

 

And on this thread, Luckers concluded his original post with this:

 

 

What Is The Relevence? These Things Occur Before Book Four, So They Ain't The BUT

 

Shadar Logoth and Fain are both results of the touch of the same evil thing, as shown by Brandon's comments. Both of these evils manifest with the feel of unseen eyes, unseen watchers. They themselves cannot be the BUT, but what I am suggesting is that the source of their evil may be.

 

Consider, Fain and Shadar Logoth have a linked source, but TAR has no links to either. So, if neither Shadar Logoth or Fain are the source of the TAR eyes--what if the TAR eyes are the source of Shadar Logoth and Fain?

 

The final thing I would address is that many have asked why the Eyes haven't done anything till now--what indication we have that that is to change. Little, in truth, but I do have this one quote which I think frames the response to such a question nicely.

 

"Whatever watches us is waiting for nightfall, I think," Sulin said. "I have looked into windows where something was looking back at me, but there was nothing there. Dancing the spears with something we cannot see will not be easy."

 

[LoC; 21, To Shadar Logoth]

 

Whatever watches waits till nightfall. The Shadow darkens the world, the next book is to be called the Towers of Midnight. The time the watchers wait for, perhaps?

 

Connecting all this together really does fit well together and I agree with Luckers theory except on one part. I dont think that the TAR eyes are the source of Shadar Logath' evil but rather that the source of the evil of Shadar Logath is found within TAR or is somehow connected with TAR. It could be connect with it because TAR is simply the reflection of ALL worlds, which means that the source could be in another would, reached by portal stone, which would explain the "eyes" in TAR and how Mordeth even found this evil.. but... then there is the problem of getting there...... (this is where I need someone to "connect the dots")

 

However, one thing I can say for sure is that the statement below is incorrect.

 

The evil of Shadar Logoth is something different entirely. Ishmael refers to it as an old friend/enemy. And that's true. The evil of Shadar Logoth is the evil within Humanity. It is an evil no Myrddraal can match. Myrddraal and Trollocs know nothing of love, compassion, friends or even family. They are born evil and linked to the Dark One. Humans are different, we know love, we know family. So for one us to sink to the evil of the Dark One is a greater blasphemy than anything a trolloc could do. The people of Shadar Logoth did just this, in fighting the evils of the Dark One they decided to mimic their tactics, to be ruthless, cruel, and heartless. They fought fire with fire and burned themselves to ashes. They epitomized the evil potential within all humans and Shadar Logoth was forever tainted by the hatred and distrust they embraced.

 

Why: because in the AoL, before the bore was drilled into, everyone was peaceful, crime did not exsist, all people lived in harmony, it was a utopia. This means, that without any outside influence (the DO or the evil of Shadar Logath) people in the wheel of time series are clean, without any evil. So that means that the evil that infected Shadar Logath cant be the evil and greed of people, because that greed only exists because of the DO.... or something else...

 

So with that said... connect the dots please.

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Alright. Just want to let you know now, that what I'm about to post is long, will have a lot of quotes and may confusse you. Also, Im not quite sure what it is Im getting at here by posting all of this, but somehow I believe that it is all connected and that maybe someone here is cleaver enough to "connect all of the dots"

 

The quote below comes from the same interview that Luckers originally quoted from but, he didnt include all of the interview, im about to include more of it.

 

Matt: Are there any other sources of Powers either within the Pattern or outside of the Wheel? Are there any sources like…

 

Brandon: ...sources much like the One Power and True Power?

 

Matt: Right.

 

Brandon: I will have to RAFO that.

 

After that then it went into this (of course excluding Luckers comments)

 

The Evil That Twisted Mordeth and Gave Birth to Shadar Logoth

 

Brandon has told us that Mordeth, in searching for ways to combat the Shadow, encountered an entirely different evil which changed him into what he is, and is currently driving him.

 

Matt: Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"…

 

Brandon: ...he was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get…

 

Matt: ...previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

 

Brandon: ...Yeah...

 

Matt: ...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

 

Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it […] He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evils things that are old in a similar way…

 

Matt: ...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

 

Brandon: He did.

 

Matt: He found one or multiple?

 

Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

 

[Hah - Maybe I should have asked if Mordeth was under the influence of the Finns...or at the very least if they were one of the powers he found in his quest... ]

 

Matt: Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

 

Brandon: Yeah. Through him. yes. And even through his presence.

 

So, this evil exists seperate of him, is driving him (or perhaps was before Fain's introduction and the presence of DO evil--it has been stated Fain is unique), and is the source of all the corruption related to Shadar Logoth.

 

Later on in the same interview this is said:

 

 

Matt: Ok. Is Mordeth’s power, this evil power, comparable to the One Power and True Power? Is it a power that can be woven?

 

Brandon: No, it’s more something along the lines of Perrin’s wolf power, something more natural, you couldn’t weave Mordeth.

 

Matt: Ok, so it’s more of a natural…

 

Brandon: ...it’s more of a natural, though it is unnatural. It’s an unnatural natural thing…

 

Matt: ...because Jordan was really particular about…he tried to have a logic-based system as it pertained to the One Power. Is this power more supernatural in sense than it is based on physics?

 

Brandon: Let’s say more instinctual, alright?

 

Matt: Ok…which brings up the following questions about the Wheel and its relationship to souls, talents, abilities and channeling. Is the Wheel responsible for giving or weaving in Talents and Abilities to a particular life, or are they like channeling, attached to the soul?

 

Brandon: That’s an excellent question. I’m going to have to RAFO that…it’s actually more of a MAFO. What’s your asking is would someone who is reborn into the Pattern will have the same talents again?

 

Matt: Right. Or does…the Wheel, we obviously know it is very capable of affecting the Pattern, so the question is does it give and take when it comes to abilities and talents it needs?

 

Brandon: Yeah, right, I will have to MAFO that.

 

 

In my thread:The Other 5 Ages and Other Powers I commented with what has been posted of the interview with this:

 

So, we know of only two ages for sure. The Age of Legends and the current age, The Third Age. So what about the other 5? The only thing I can began to imagine about them is that there will be "other powers" not necessarily sources like the One and True Powers but, other powers for sure. Im not certain if people will be able to channel the One Power either in future ages... Im not saying it wont exsist, im saying that maybe there will be an age were no one is born with the ability to channel. But its also possible that there will be no such age.

 

So, these "other powers" we dont know exactly what these will be but we do know that some of these powers are evil (Mordeth's, some neutral (Perrin's), and some im assuming good. Maybe there is another power like the true source, but I doubt it.

 

What I am trying to point out here is this: we only know of two ages, the other 5 could have nothing to do with the Dark One. Yes, the eternal war between good and evil will continue, but it doesn't have to relate to the dark one; as the interview above just proved, there are other evils out there.

 

Your thoughts? Theories about the other 5 ages? Big question here: Do you think that the wheel of time series can continue but just set in a different age?

 

Side note: Link to the full interview: http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2714

 

And later on in the thread I replied to a few comments with this:

 

i have always seen Fains powers as something similar to channeling. I AM NOT SAYING FAIN CAN CHANNEL. But while his ability was somewhat described as an old thing like Perrins Wolfbrother ability, an old thing.

 

Whether another entity was involved I dont know, but I see it as a very strong possibility

 

Exactly. Thats what I am trying to get at. We know that each age has a vague set pattern to follow. We only know of what happens in two of the seven ages for sure. So wouldn't it be possible for the dark one to be sealed away for five ages and then when the "Age of Legends" comes again, his influence spreads into the world again. But during the other five ages there is some other entity or maybe multiple different entities of evil, such as the evil of Shadiar Logath. And because the pattern knows that this new age is coming it starts preparing for it, thats why we see people with all these "new" special abilities; Min's views, Wolf Brothers, The Sniffer, ect.

 

See, I believe that Mordeth actually found one of these entities or maybe its just some kind of power, but anyways, he found it and tapped into it somehow, much like how Lanfear tapped into the bore. The difference is however, he didn't release it into the world, only into himself, but it is contagious. I think, that in one of the other ages, that that same evil will be release on a widespread.

 

Any thoughts or questions on my theory? Please comment, I would really like to hear what people think of this.

 

And on this thread, Luckers concluded his original post with this:

 

 

What Is The Relevence? These Things Occur Before Book Four, So They Ain't The BUT

 

Shadar Logoth and Fain are both results of the touch of the same evil thing, as shown by Brandon's comments. Both of these evils manifest with the feel of unseen eyes, unseen watchers. They themselves cannot be the BUT, but what I am suggesting is that the source of their evil may be.

 

Consider, Fain and Shadar Logoth have a linked source, but TAR has no links to either. So, if neither Shadar Logoth or Fain are the source of the TAR eyes--what if the TAR eyes are the source of Shadar Logoth and Fain?

 

The final thing I would address is that many have asked why the Eyes haven't done anything till now--what indication we have that that is to change. Little, in truth, but I do have this one quote which I think frames the response to such a question nicely.

 

"Whatever watches us is waiting for nightfall, I think," Sulin said. "I have looked into windows where something was looking back at me, but there was nothing there. Dancing the spears with something we cannot see will not be easy."

 

[LoC; 21, To Shadar Logoth]

 

Whatever watches waits till nightfall. The Shadow darkens the world, the next book is to be called the Towers of Midnight. The time the watchers wait for, perhaps?

 

Connecting all this together really does fit well together and I agree with Luckers theory except on one part. I dont think that the TAR eyes are the source of Shadar Logath' evil but rather that the source of the evil of Shadar Logath is found within TAR or is somehow connected with TAR. It could be connect with it because TAR is simply the reflection of ALL worlds, which means that the source could be in another would, reached by portal stone, which would explain the "eyes" in TAR and how Mordeth even found this evil.. but... then there is the problem of getting there...... (this is where I need someone to "connect the dots")

 

However, one thing I can say for sure is that the statement below is incorrect.

 

The evil of Shadar Logoth is something different entirely. Ishmael refers to it as an old friend/enemy. And that's true. The evil of Shadar Logoth is the evil within Humanity. It is an evil no Myrddraal can match. Myrddraal and Trollocs know nothing of love, compassion, friends or even family. They are born evil and linked to the Dark One. Humans are different, we know love, we know family. So for one us to sink to the evil of the Dark One is a greater blasphemy than anything a trolloc could do. The people of Shadar Logoth did just this, in fighting the evils of the Dark One they decided to mimic their tactics, to be ruthless, cruel, and heartless. They fought fire with fire and burned themselves to ashes. They epitomized the evil potential within all humans and Shadar Logoth was forever tainted by the hatred and distrust they embraced.

 

Why: because in the AoL, before the bore was drilled into, everyone was peaceful, crime did not exsist, all people lived in harmony, it was a utopia. This means, that without any outside influence (the DO or the evil of Shadar Logath) people in the wheel of time series are clean, without any evil. So that means that the evil that infected Shadar Logath cant be the evil and greed of people, because that greed only exists because of the DO.... or something else...

 

So with that said... connect the dots please.

 

 

I disagree with the utopia description. If there was no crime why have Binders and whatever the chair thing for non-channelers is called.

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I disagree with the utopia description. If there was no crime why have Binders and whatever the chair thing for non-channelers is called.

 

If there are needs for any oaths, keeping a simple promise, then a binder could be use. Also, they could have been made after the bore and the chair thing, no one knows its real purpose. But it was stated by one of the forsaken once that there was almost no crime, nearly none at all. And I read somewhere that it was a "utopia" I forgot where though, but I know it was reliable.

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There would always be crimes of passion even in a real-to-goodness Utopia even if there are no/ few crimes against property.

What little we do know about AoL pre-bore suggests high levels of material comfort (surplus food, free education, easy Travel and generally surplus resources), a world government and bureaucracy (nine rods, the servants aka AS) hence no wars, a racially and species-integrated society (lower levels of overall social tension), a great deal of personal freedom (people with channeling ability didn't have to become AS unless they wanted to, a wide variety of professions including tertiary professions - philosophers, anthropologists, shrinks, investment councillors), no religious conflicts.

Most of that is good.

We also saw professional jealousy (Sammael, Demandred, Asmo), bureaucratic in-fighting (the male-female AS debating what to do), sexual jealousy (Demandred-LTT-Ilyena-Mierin), sadism (Samirhage), random drunker violence (Balthamiel). Presumably other negative human emotions exist. The GLoD being able to touch the world might magnify those emotions but they would always exist because they are common to the human make up.

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There would always be crimes of passion even in a real-to-goodness Utopia even if there are no/ few crimes against property.

What little we do know about AoL pre-bore suggests high levels of material comfort (surplus food, free education, easy Travel and generally surplus resources), a world government and bureaucracy (nine rods, the servants aka AS) hence no wars, a racially and species-integrated society (lower levels of overall social tension), a great deal of personal freedom (people with channeling ability didn't have to become AS unless they wanted to, a wide variety of professions including tertiary professions - philosophers, anthropologists, shrinks, investment councillors), no religious conflicts.

Most of that is good.

We also saw professional jealousy (Sammael, Demandred, Asmo), bureaucratic in-fighting (the male-female AS debating what to do), sexual jealousy (Demandred-LTT-Ilyena-Mierin), sadism (Samirhage), random drunker violence (Balthamiel). Presumably other negative human emotions exist. The GLoD being able to touch the world might magnify those emotions but they would always exist because they are common to the human make up.

Agreed but, I doubt that an evil like shadar logath can sprout just purely from "the dark side" of humans. Plus, it was specifically mentioned that Mordeth found this evil.

Edited by Abutt

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Why: because in the AoL, before the bore was drilled into, everyone was peaceful, crime did not exsist, all people lived in harmony, it was a utopia. This means, that without any outside influence (the DO or the evil of Shadar Logath) people in the wheel of time series are clean, without any evil. So that means that the evil that infected Shadar Logath cant be the evil and greed of people, because that greed only exists because of the DO.... or something else...

 

Sorry, but you're flat wrong about all that. People were still greedy and mean and all that, even pre-Bore. From a book signing:

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 12 October 1996, Cincinnati - Mike Lawson reporting

 

Also, another note concerning the pre-Bore Age of Legends...

 

RJ had mentioned (in response to another question) that what the characters believe does not make it so (Moiraine's statements were used as an example), so I asked whether the pre-Bore Age of Legends was the topia that the characters believed it to be. His reply is paraphrased below:

 

Compared to their current world, it certainly would be a utopia. However, that doesn't mean that it was perfect. Of course, outbreaks of diseases were kept to a minimum, but it and other disasters of that ilk still occurred. Evil still existed, as well.The Forsaken, for example, weren't exactly a stellar bunch to begin with.

 

Semirhage, for example, was a sadist. (I'll skip his description of what a sadist is.) She went into her profession (the equivalent of a surgeon) because it provided an outlet for her sadism. (He then cited some studies that showed that there were more people with sadist tendencies in the medical profession, and surgeons in particular, to support his point.)

 

Aginor (whom he said after some prompting had several elements of the classic mad scientist type) was a biological scientist who never considered the consequences of his actions. Aginor would say, "I wonder what would happen if I took the Ebola virus and altered it to be an airborne virus." He'd go ahead and do just that, all without realizing he'd be creating a potentially unstoppable plague. All Aginor would reply to that was, "Hmm. Interesting." (Jordan then mentioned Aginor's creation of the Trollocs, their defects, "It was strong, big, tough to kill, and......stupid," and that it was the birth of the first Myrddraal that saved the Trollocs from being a complete failure.)

 

Even back in the Age of Legends, regular, ordinary folks could do some pretty nasty things. He then cited a study about a small town of ordinary Germans in WW2 who did some pretty horrific things (I believe he was referring to the book "Hitler's Willing Executioners").

 

There's also plenty of evidence in the books themselves, as Sharaman pointed out. For a specific example, according to LTT, Mierin always cared about power. LTT had broken up with her long before the Bore was drilled, and that was part of why he did so. So that's one person who had, shall we say, "morality issues" before anyone even suspected there was this other Source. Also, RJ's example of Semirhage is straight from the text too: during her POV while torturing Cabriana, we learn that she'd already lived for centuries before the Bore, and it's quite obvious that she'd been a practicing sadist for basically her entire life.

 

ETA: accidentally left some of the signing stuff out.

Edited by didymos

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Why: because in the AoL, before the bore was drilled into, everyone was peaceful, crime did not exsist, all people lived in harmony, it was a utopia. This means, that without any outside influence (the DO or the evil of Shadar Logath) people in the wheel of time series are clean, without any evil. So that means that the evil that infected Shadar Logath cant be the evil and greed of people, because that greed only exists because of the DO.... or something else...

 

Sorry, but you're flat wrong about all that. People were still greedy and mean and all that, even pre-Bore. From a book signing:

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 12 October 1996, Cincinnati - Mike Lawson reporting

 

Also, another note concerning the pre-Bore Age of Legends...

 

RJ had mentioned (in response to another question) that what the characters believe does not make it so (Moiraine's statements were used as an example), so I asked whether the pre-Bore Age of Legends was the topia that the characters believed it to be. His reply is paraphrased below:

 

Compared to their current world, it certainly would be a utopia. However, that doesn't mean that it was perfect. Of course, outbreaks of diseases were kept to a minimum, but it and other disasters of that ilk still occurred. Evil still existed, as well.The Forsaken, for example, weren't exactly a stellar bunch to begin with.

 

Semirhage, for example, was a sadist. (I'll skip his description of what a sadist is.) She went into her profession (the equivalent of a surgeon) because it provided an outlet for her sadism. (He then cited some studies that showed that there were more people with sadist tendencies in the medical profession, and surgeons in particular, to support his point.)

 

Aginor (whom he said after some prompting had several elements of the classic mad scientist type) was a biological scientist who never considered the consequences of his actions. Aginor would say, "I wonder what would happen if I took the Ebola virus and altered it to be an airborne virus." He'd go ahead and do just that, all without realizing he'd be creating a potentially unstoppable plague. All Aginor would reply to that was, "Hmm. Interesting." (Jordan then mentioned Aginor's creation of the Trollocs, their defects, "It was strong, big, tough to kill, and......stupid," and that it was the birth of the first Myrddraal that saved the Trollocs from being a complete failure.)

 

Even back in the Age of Legends, regular, ordinary folks could do some pretty nasty things. He then cited a study about a small town of ordinary Germans in WW2 who did some pretty horrific things (I believe he was referring to the book "Hitler's Willing Executioners").

 

There's also plenty of evidence in the books themselves, as Sharaman pointed out. For a specific example, according to LTT, Mierin always cared about power. LTT had broken up with her long before the Bore was drilled, and that was part of why he did so. So that's one person who had, shall we say, "morality issues" before anyone even suspected there was this other Source. Also, RJ's example of Semirhage is straight from the text too: during her POV while torturing Cabriana, we learn that she'd already lived for centuries before the Bore, and it's quite obvious that she'd been a practicing sadist for basically her entire life.

 

ETA: accidentally left some of the signing stuff out.

 

Alright, Im wrong. But I still stand by my belief that the evil of Shadar Logath was not spawned by humans. From what Brandon said and how he said it, it sounds like an ancient evil, just like the dark one. Anyways, how could merely the "evil within humans" have the supernatural powers of the evil of Shadar Logath.

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Ok, came to the conversation a little late. [Removed. Spoiler] but I was reading the end of aCoS last night and it jumped out at me the connection between TAR and Shadar Logoth.

 

Something that no ones seems to mention is that if there is a connection between the two, then we likely know exactly what happened to Mordeth. He traveled to TAR too often in the flesh. We have multiple reasons to beleive that this robs humans of thier humanity. Likely turning them evil in some way.

 

Is is an interesting question on just what it is that going to TAR in the flesh turns someone evil or takes away thier humanity. Would this suggest that TAR is more of a "real" land then our preconceptions seem to suggest? Perhaps it is an analog to the 'Finnland as others have suggested. Going there in the dream(in the mind) allows the users interesting abilities. Going there in the flesh would be akin to touching it directly...something like radiation poisioning.

 

This would work along the lines that we know of the 'Finn not being evil, but being so out of wack with us as to appear so in a way. It's a land that is safe to go to indirectly, but directly it has an adverse effect. This would make sense in that it seems to be cumulative. Rand/Egwene/Perrin all go there at least once, but seem to have none of the permenent effects of Slayer. This would also explain why Mordeth was able to infect the city. If he traveled so extensively to TAR in the flesh, he may have become a carrier.

 

Also, the idea of the Eyes being "different" rather then evil jives with this. In that in TAR the eyes seem no more then disconcerting. But rip that out of TAR, and would not the result pershaps be concieved "evil"? Imagine the wonky physics of Finnland suddenly transported into our reality.

 

To me, this would also explain a lot. As I can see from others on this thread, I am not the only one who wants a good answer on what exactly "evil" is doing floating around that's not connected to the Dark One. This would explain how something could be "evil" but not from the DO.

 

A point against all of this would be if this is the case, what exactly is going on with Slayer? We know there is still a lot to learn about just who and what this guy is, but for sure he looks to be deeply in the pocket of the Dark One. He travels to TAR in the flesh, and he doesn't seem to be sprouting an tendrils or picking up any Mordeth/SL/Fain tendencies at all. Perhaps whatever the DO has done to Slayer shields him better from that evil. Perhaps whatever it is is much less potent as Eyes in TAR as it is as concentrated evil in SL so it was able to get ahold of Fain easier then Slayer. Not sure.

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To me, this would also explain a lot. As I can see from others on this thread, I am not the only one who wants a good answer on what exactly "evil" is doing floating around that's not connected to the Dark One. This would explain how something could be "evil" but not from the DO.

 

I never really had an issue with this. SL-evil is sort of like antimatter: some properties are reversed, like charge, but it's still matter. You can make atoms out of it and all that stuff. Put it in contact with matter, though, and they mutually annihilate one another. It's also generally accepted that there's very little of it, if any, in comparison to normal matter. One thing I've considered, though, is that the taint on saidin made it possible for SL-evil to exist. It created an imbalance that brought this other power into existence, which Mordeth discovered and somehow managed to master, at least in part. He then went to Aridhol and it took root there and grew until it matched the DO's taint. But that's just pure speculation, and it's not without its problems.

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For some reason, I always thought the Unseen Eyes were the Finns, specifically the foxes, waiting to take the skins off people who dreamed their way into T'A'R'.

 

Having said that, I do not really no why I thought that....

 

It's funny that you mention that. I was just reading throught these posts trying to find the answers to this myself. I actually thought I was the only one who had thought of the Unseen Eyes as the big BUT, until I read these posts lol. I have actually made a post myself discussing this lol. But after reading all these posts, something else struck me. One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that the Unseen Eyes are actually in the realm of the finns as well. Now answer me this. There are 2 races in the land of the finns...that are known... The Aelfinn - Snakes - and the Eelfinn - Foxes. How many towers does Mat see when he looks out the window at the strange world? 3. 3 towers, but only 2 races. Does this seem odd to you? The realm of the finns is unnatural, akin to T'a'r, if not different, but still similar. They have both the Unseen Eyes, although it seems to make you think of them as the finn's. What if this is not the case? Or more so, it is but an unseen race of finn's? And also the fact of T'a'r in my belief is ruled by the wolves, not man. Could this mean there is a third race of finn's? Perhaps a race of wolf finn's? Man has the potential for both good and evil. What if the finn's are the same? Only the third race has not yet shown themselves? It is something I have literally only just thought of so I don't have anything to back this up, but thinking about it seems right. Can anyone else think of something that could back up this line of thinking? Or does it at least shed a new light on this line of thought for others? Please let me know, I am very interested in the Unseen Eyes thread.

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Alright, Im wrong. But I still stand by my belief that the evil of Shadar Logath was not spawned by humans. From what Brandon said and how he said it, it sounds like an ancient evil, just like the dark one. Anyways, how could merely the "evil within humans" have the supernatural powers of the evil of Shadar Logath.

 

Aridhol was the capital of the nation of the same name during the Trolloc Wars. The king of the time followed the advice of Mordeth, and used the tactics of the Shadow against it. Their battlecry was, "The victory of the Light is all", and they uttered it more frequently as their deeds became more of the Shadow than the Light. Some would prefer to see the arrival of Trollocs than the soldiers of Aridhol.

 

Eventually, this distrust led to every man, woman and child of Aridhol slaying each other in a single night. In their demise, they left something behind in the very foundations of the city. And one man had survived.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Shadar_Logoth#The_creation_of_Mashadar

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Errm, I always assume the Unseen Eyes of TAR to be the heroes of the horn that aren't voilating the precepts by appearing to Dreamwalkers...

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