Alivia's help

[Marin]

What if we look at Alivia helping Rand to die in a different way? Let's say she doesn't actually assist him in accomplishing his own demise. Let's say, instead, that she helps him appear to be dead. Remember: Rand on a funeral pyre, but it's not really Rand. Three in a boat (Min, Elayne & Avi)... I think they're mourning Rand or he's also in the boat, but dead. Could Alivia pose as the dead Rand (disguised with the power, weaves inverted)? Could she be sacrificing herself? Or, perhaps lying in wait, with her ability to weild the power cloaked? My guess is yes. It seems to be a big trap or diversion (as in "Sauron, look this way!") that allows Rand to do what he must. This is my first post (gulp). Let me know what you think.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I doubt that a disguise would fool both a Fortelling and Min's ability to view the Pattern. The Pattern is not fooled when someone weaves a disguise.

[Marin]

Hmmm. But didn't that foretelling say it was Rand, but not really Rand, on that funeral pyre? And Min may not realize that her viewings may require a (tiny) bit of interpretation. After all, they've been so straight forward all of her life. For example, did Min view that Alivia would help Rand die, or did she view that Alivia would help Rand "die"? Just the fact that she's viewing images rather than words could certainly cloud the issue. And let's not forget her emotions tied to this particular viewing. After all, if Rand "dies" and Alivia helps, the viewing is still fulfilled. I may be stretching it a bit, but the specific point of Rand BEING dead doesn't enter into any foretelling, viewing, dream, Kartheon Cycle, etc. I think that the point is intentionally avoided, and it being a (small and easily overlooked) thread throughout the story just makes it more enticing to me.

[Guest cwestervelt]

When Min first mentions it, she states "three women standing around a funeral bier with you [Rand] on it". There isn't any ambiguity in her vision. She didn't say she knew what it meant, so it is open to interpretaion. If Min knows what a vision means, it will happen. If she doesn't know what it means, does that mean it might not happen? Unlikely, but who knows.

 

Addition: Note that she doesn't say Rand was actually dead.

[Luckers]

Nevertheless there is a point to be made about the specific states of the visions of him dead. Usually they involve masks, or images of rand crumbling away to not be him. In the case of Alivia that specific wording 'help him die' strikes me as odd--And yet there is also a point to be made that to confuse a foretelling, dream or vision the state that results in it not being rand must surely be more then a faked death, or an illusion... i think Rand really DOES need to die, so that he may live... or more specifically...

 

My belief is that Rand and Moridin will switch bodies, and that Alivia will kill Rand's body.

[RobertAlexWillis]

For reference purposes, here is Nicola's Fortelling:

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond,. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

(Lord of Chaos, Dreams and Nightmares, p.255)

[moroten]

For reference purposes, here is Nicola's Fortelling:

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond,. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

So, Rand dies but yet he survives. I think we can all agree on that. How he survives/dies we can on speculate but probably wont even be close to the true answer, RJ will surely find the most suprising yet mindtrhrilling way to do it.

 

But what I see as interesting is, what is Rand gonna do when he is done!! Will he cast everything aside or will he defend the world against the return...will people even follow him still, after he have done what he was supposed to do.

[Marin]

Thanks for the great responses. OK, I'm enjoying this; no more lurking for me! I searched this weekend, but couldn't find a particular reference - Min says she sees Rand on a funeral pyre, only it's not really Rand. I think she says he's made of paper. Does anyone else remember this?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Made of ...... paper? I'd like to see that reference too .....

[Marin]

Well, if I've lost my mind, so be it. I'll hunt for this reference... I may not find it, but if I'm lucky I'll find my marbles ;)

[Guest Majsju]

You're mixing two different dreams.

 

ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes,

 

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

 

ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes,

 

A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.

[Marin]

Thanks Majsju. It feels better to be a bit confused than totally off my rocker. Anyway, those are some of the prophetic indicators that started me on this string of thought.

[DemandredFO]

Here is my translation of that foretelling, BTW Thanks a bunch Robert

 

The Lion sword is Elayne, the dedicated spear is Aviendha, She who sees beyond is Min. Three on the same boat, them, and he who is dead yet lives, Rand. The great battle done, Tarmon Gaidon, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, I believe that is the Seanchen, and the guardians, Asha'Man, balance the servants, Aes Sedai. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

I hope this helps someone, if it has been done before I apoligize to the person who did it first.

[murali284]

When Rand entered the terangreal in tear,the snakes told him that to survive tarmon gaidon, he had to die first.

 

Subsequently we are able to observe the emergence of Lews Therin. In knife of dreams, we observe that LTT can for a short period of time take control of Rand's body. We are also I think in a way observing the splitting of the soul into two halves. (More than the standard schizophrenia)By tarmon gaidon, they may be separate

 

Here is a theoretical prediction of TG:

LTT takes over and battles the Dark one and whatever the temporary outcome, is 'killed' thus leaving the rand personality somewhere. Hence the rand personality is somewhere either in his body or somewhere else. It can account for the dead body being rand and not rand. I think Rand has a grand plan which he has been formulating since the beginning of book four which Robert Jordan is not revealing.

 

 

There are quite a few flaws but i believe that the reference to rand dying is actually the death of LTT. Since th death of LTT is a kind of death of Rand, since they are essentially the same.

[Luckers]

LTT cannot be killed, he is a facet personality of Rands soul. Even in the Age of Legends the only hope was reintergrating the two facets, and i dont see that happening in the middle of a battle.

 

Plus i dont think LTT will in any way be responsible for victory... it would completely destroy the importance of Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Indeed.

[Taishar Manetheren]

I dont have a theory of my own but i think that Min's viewing of Rand and another man touching each other and then they merged and one lives and the other died, has something to do with this subject.

 

Rand thought the other man was LTT but it could be Moridin or someone else.

 

What do you think?

[murali284]

So the question begs then, if reintegration is impossible when the alternate is real, then how is rand going to be sane afterwards. he cant go through life with a chronic depressive type in his head

[Luckers]

Its not impossible, it's just hard. My guess is reintergration will be achieved by LTT not Rand.

[seoman]

my guess is that rand will die to allow his heritage live through his blood, his children.

Alivia will help rand die not suicide, he will give his inmortal soul to use it as a focus to seal the bore (instead of seven cuendillar seals, he will use his soul, he will be sealed in the bore and desappear for ever to the wheel)

i know is not a consistent theory, but i think rand already knows how to defeat the dark one, and he seems to accept he will die; all the visions of masks, illusions of rand could be to distract the attention from his real purpose

[RobertAlexWillis]

Fixing the Dark One's prison would do the job of reintegrating Rand and Lews Therin, because the only reason Lews Therin has to stick around is his failure to really defeat the Dark One. That is the Dragon's purpose, he is the Light's champion. Since the Dragon is spun out again and again, always as the Light's champion, if one incarnation fails his purpose, or thinks he fails his purpose, then that incarnation may "haunt" the next one, until the purpose is accomplished.

 

Even killing Ilyena is directly related to the backlash from Lews Therin's failed assault. With the taint cleansed, the only thing keeping the Lews Therin incarnation in Rand's head is the failure to reimprison the Dark One.

 

As a side note, Rand's pathological guilt over women is surely a result of his previous incarnation's guilt over killing Ilyena. It will be interesting to me to see what Moiraine's return does to Lews Therin ....

[Luckers]

Indications seem to be that its a Two Rivers thing.

[Taishar Manetheren]

Yeah, Mat has the same thing about woman altough he doesnt count the dead woman before he goes to sleep like rand.

And Perrin has the thing about everyone close to him that die because of his decisions.

[OzzieAlThor]

Off Topic:

 

Here is my translation of that foretelling' date=' BTW Thanks a bunch Robert

 

The Lion sword is Elayne, the dedicated spear is Aviendha, She who sees beyond is Min. Three on the same boat, them, and he who is dead yet lives, Rand. The great battle done, Tarmon Gaidon, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, I believe that is the Seanchen, and the guardians, Asha'Man, balance the servants, Aes Sedai. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

I hope this helps someone, if it has been done before I apoligize to the person who did it first.[/quote']

 

This is the simplest and best answer to what will it be like AFTER TG. I don't care how many people might have thought it in the past, it doesn't make the idea have less merit.

 

 

Back ON Topic:

 

Alivia could help Rand die by faking his death, linking with him while he fights an immposible fight (possibly with the Dark One himself) or any number of ways.

 

Dead yet still lives could refer to the Twins as well (this was previously mention in this thread).

 

The thing is, the folks he got his 3 answers from were not vauge in their answers. Quite the opposite, they were suscinct and to the point (even with Mat, although lord knows he didn't believe that for a while). They said to live he must die.

 

She'll not die for him. Nor will she kill him.

 

It's a sticky wicket is what it is. We just won't know till it happens.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Indications seem to be that its a Two Rivers thing.

 

I'm talking more about carrying the list around in his head. Mat and Perrin don't like to kill women, (although both have in certain situations, Perrin just tried to put it out of his mind at Dumai's Wells, Mat vaccilates at times), but they don't walk around mentally regurgitating every woman who died in their behalf, or because of their mistakes.