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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

The Life and Times of An Aes Sedai

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How about Taim. When he was broken out of prison wasn't he being held in a Saldean city? It's possible that he was and was still not held in Caemlyn but who knows....

he was sprung during tansport to the WT

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The White Tower as an institution has always sort of reminded me of the Imperial France from the mid 1800s. It's entire reputation merely pulled from predecessors. Their military, for example, was supposedly unrivaled in terms of innovation with their military leaders having a reputation as brilliant tacticians with a tendency for daring tactics. The reality was it was outdated with stuffy unremarkable nobles who took risk avoidance to a fault. But in the same way the second empires' reputation wasn't trashed until they got whipped in the Franco-Prussian war, the White Tower is seen as all-knowing and indomitable until people start meeting the current Aes Sedai.

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I'm lost.

 

Sutt's it's obvious that you're talking about Rand and Mat arriving in Caemlyn, meeting Loial, Rand checking out Logain (who by the way Cadsuane said she left him with the Reds and went haring off after Taim), falling over the wall and meeting Elayne, arrival of Moiraine and the gang, sharing notes about the Eye and heading off to Fal Dara through the Ways, etc.

 

After the Eye when they are leaving Fal Dara (the Aes Sedai) which is where you seem to be pulling your numbers from Vards. I don't get how you think they were ever in Caemlyn back then? As they would have journeyed from TV direct to Fal Dara. Seeing as Cadsuane was always ahead of the ball (or in the right place at the right time), I think those 19 Reds in Caemlyn were on their way to investigate rumours of and/or capture Taim. It could be more sinister, especially because the ratio of Black Reds compared to other Ajahs is high, possibly they were just amping up the search for the Dragon on orders or because they recongnised the signs.

 

So can someone please explain to me how these 3 groups are linked?

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I'm lost.

 

Sutt's it's obvious that you're talking about Rand and Mat arriving in Caemlyn, meeting Loial, Rand checking out Logain (who by the way Cadsuane said she left him with the Reds and went haring off after Taim), falling over the wall and meeting Elayne, arrival of Moiraine and the gang, sharing notes about the Eye and heading off to Fal Dara through the Ways, etc.

 

After the Eye when they are leaving Fal Dara (the Aes Sedai) which is where you seem to be pulling your numbers from Vards. I don't get how you think they were ever in Caemlyn back then? As they would have journeyed from TV direct to Fal Dara. Seeing as Cadsuane was always ahead of the ball (or in the right place at the right time), I think those 19 Reds in Caemlyn were on their way to investigate rumours of and/or capture Taim. It could be more sinister, especially because the ratio of Black Reds compared to other Ajahs is high, possibly they were just amping up the search for the Dragon on orders or because they recongnised the signs.

 

So can someone please explain to me how these 3 groups are linked?

 

Lol. We're discussing 2 different situations where the numbers of AS didn't match the number of warders.

 

Situation 1 occured at Fal Dara, 14 AS (with 2 reds) and 16 Warders. 2 greens had 2 warders each, which would put the total number of warders at 14. 2 extra.

 

In Caemlyn (I can never spell that damn word properly) Rand saw a dozen warders, and a few hours later Moraine announced all the AS currently in the city were Reds, thus why were there any warders?

 

We also have scenes of charactrs discussing warders doing something, which Sutt believes implies AS were involved as well. It seems that may not be the case

It seems in the first two books, the term Warders was used differently. Or warders ventured off without their AS a lot. Even in the Fal Dara scene a warder is sent off to carry a message. Who's warder was it?

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The warder count at Fal Dara was a mistake and has been corrected down to fourteen in later printings of tGH to account for Leane and Carlinya having no Warder (every other sister does, except the Red sisters, and the two Greens each have two).

 

Jordan explained that Moiraine's comments were not a mistake, but rather that Logain was escorted by a mixed group of Aes Sedai, which therefore included warders, and that the Red Ajah was honoured in particular and offered rooms at the Palace while the rest of the Aes Sedai camped outside the city--hence Rand saw warders, but by the time Moiraine made her comment those warders Aes Sedai were all not in the city. It's a massive retconn, of course, but the logic works at a pinch so we'll nod and smile and pretend its all dandy.

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The warder count at Fal Dara was a mistake and has been corrected down to fourteen in later printings of tGH to account for Leane and Carlinya having no Warder (every other sister does, except the Red sisters, and the two Greens each have two).

 

Jordan explained that Moiraine's comments were not a mistake, but rather that Logain was escorted by a mixed group of Aes Sedai, which therefore included warders, and that the Red Ajah was honoured in particular and offered rooms at the Palace while the rest of the Aes Sedai camped outside the city--hence Rand saw warders, but by the time Moiraine made her comment those warders Aes Sedai were all not in the city. It's a massive retconn, of course, but the logic works at a pinch so we'll nod and smile and pretend its all dandy.

 

Hell, I forgot Leane had no warder, so the count would be 12 then still. 2 reds, no warder and Leane. Not sure what print mine is, I purchased it 2 years ago (Repurchased it) but it doesn't mean that's the edition.

 

Ahh, ok so it was officially Retconed. Do we know if they had different ideas for "Warders" in the begining? Thanks btw.

Edited by Vardarmus

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Hell, I forgot Leane had no warder, so the count would be 12 then still. 2 reds, no warder and Leane. Not sure what print mine is, I purchased it 2 years ago (Repurchased it) but it doesn't mean that's the edition.

 

No, it's fourteen. There were sixteen Aes Sedai present at Fal Dara. Four of them had no warders (the two reds, Carlinya and Leane), but against that two of them had two warders each (Alanna and an unamed Green), which brings the total to fourteen.

 

Ahh, ok so it was officially Retconed. Do we know if they had different ideas for "Warders" in the begining? Thanks btw.

 

There are some oddities that would suggest that, yes, like Agelmar referencing warders scouting the Blight in EotW even though we know there were no Aes Sedai present in Shienar.

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Hell, I forgot Leane had no warder, so the count would be 12 then still. 2 reds, no warder and Leane. Not sure what print mine is, I purchased it 2 years ago (Repurchased it) but it doesn't mean that's the edition.

 

No, it's fourteen. There were sixteen Aes Sedai present at Fal Dara. Four of them had no warders (the two reds, Carlinya and Leane), but against that two of them had two warders each (Alanna and an unamed Green), which brings the total to fourteen.

 

Ahh, ok so it was officially Retconed. Do we know if they had different ideas for "Warders" in the begining? Thanks btw.

 

There are some oddities that would suggest that, yes, like Agelmar referencing warders scouting the Blight in EotW even though we know there were no Aes Sedai present in Shienar.

 

Ahh. I always forget the grey ajah when I count in my head. Thanks.

 

And double thanks for the bottom portion.

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There are some oddities that would suggest that, yes, like Agelmar referencing warders scouting the Blight in EotW even though we know there were no Aes Sedai present in Shienar.

 

Just to note, the warder reference was to other countries, not Shienar.

 

Also I forget, in TPoD did Easar have an AS advisor? They very well could have been in the capital with him.

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There are some oddities that would suggest that, yes, like Agelmar referencing warders scouting the Blight in EotW even though we know there were no Aes Sedai present in Shienar.

 

Just to note, the warder reference was to other countries, not Shienar.

 

Also I forget, in TPoD did Easar have an AS advisor? They very well could have been in the capital with him.

I would say yes, due to most leaders keeping an AS advisor at all times.

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Great stuff from Luckers here...

Seconded!

Last, for the future. While Egwene does have some good ideas, her blindness on the oaths (and her hypocrisy) is startling. She also needs to rid them of the silly precedence rules (maybe Nynaeve will help her with that). Elayne, too. Still, the #1 thing will be integrating back into society and helping. Nynaeve's healing in Arad Doman is a start. Alanna and Verin in the Two Rivers helped. That needs to be replicated. Siuan seems ready to marry, despite it being against Blue orthodoxy. And Moiraine as well. Nynaeve is a Yellow, and married. All this helps with the reintegration.

 

Just an observation that to me it seemed that Nyn was the one to observe the need for reintegration. Eg looked troubled and thoughtful (could have just been thoughtful?) at the idea. She at least didn't reject it out of hand.

 

well, I don't really have any problem with them not learning self-defense. I mean, lot's of people don't bother with that.

 

I doubt that most of the governor's, senators or congressmen in America know self-defense, for instance.

 

But the US hasn't been attacked on their own soil for decades (Pearl Harbour the last time?) The Aiel got to the walls of the WT within the last 20 years, not to mention they're at continuous war with the shadow, a real threat with real soldiers. Plus their oaths prevent them from defence unless their lives are in danger, doesn't take much imagination to come up with situations that some ability to fight independently of the Power would be a good idea.

 

 

When has she ever considered, even for a second, to open up the Tower's doors to male channelers?

 

Do the male channellers even WANT that to happen?

 

Could you blame them, if they didn't want that to happen, when your biggest representative was deceived, put in a cage and beaten? What has Egwene done in order to right the wrong done to Rand by Elaida?

 

Never mind them being different people. Both women represent the same station. And any good leader should know how to make amends and right the wrongs of the nation/organization they represent. Any good leader should make it publicly known where they stand, concerning predecessor's views and offer a public statement to address the issue.

 

Especially, when you disagree with such views and understand that your predecessor was completely wrong. Otherwise, what you're saying is that your agenda remains in the same course as your predecessor's and that you support his/her views.

 

Haven't seen Egwene issue a public apology to Rand for what was done to him, which is what the situation demands. Especially, so close to Tarmon Gai'don, when the two sexes will have to place their trust and lives in the hands of the others, whether they like it or not. A smart leader would be trying to making amends ASAP, whether she wants to work side by side with male channelers in the long run or not.

 

Besides, whether the male channelers want to join the White Tower or not, a woman in Egwene's position has got to put prejudice behind and do the right thing. It's not up to her to decide whether the men join or not. She should at least consider it because, now that the taint's been cleansed, it's the right thing to do. Simple as that.

 

Although I agree in principal that their are several instances where more innovation would be good, in this case, Eg wasn't sure that the taint had been cleansed until ToM when talking with Nyn.

 

I agree with the need for Eg to acknowledge Elaidas actions as being wrong. Worringly she and Siuan called out Nyn for saying the same thing.

 

 

Then why hasn't Obama gotten us out of the Middle East? :rolleyes:

 

LOL...great question! But, IDK...I'm not even a citizen of the US, so I guess I wouldn't even be qualified to answer it, though.

 

Seriously, you have a MAJOR point. Now that saidin is clean, the White Tower is going to have to work with male channelers. Egwene is full of plans to tie ALL WOMEN who can channel to the Tower -- Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin, and possibly the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders -- but she's still not seeing the Black Tower as anything but a threat/problem. Her administration's only action toward it is sending women to bond Asha'man, and that's mostly to get some vaguely-defined handle on them in return for Asha'man bonding Sisters. Not only is she slighting half or more of the available channeling power available for the Last Battle, she's not looking beyond that battle.

 

Thanks, though you also make a great point, IMO. I understand that Logain and his charges were wrong to have bonded sisters against their will but, I agree 100% w/you: other than bonding Asha'man as Warders, the Aes Sedai are overlooking the potentials of the balance that working hand in hand with the males (as equals) would provide for everyone concerned. Plus they have to do it, if they want to win the Last Battle, I would think. Not to mention to continue looking at male channelers as something less than their equals, which IMO, is ridiculous, of course.

 

Given restrictions that Logains group were working under it's difficult to know what else they could have done? They couldn't hurt or kill the AS and it's doubtful they'd have the skills or strength required to continuously shield 50 odd AS permanently... Tricky one, especially given the additional compulsion with the bond.

 

The thing is, you can't be infallible if you apologize. The Tower presents itself as infallible, individuals, i.e. Moiraine apologize but that's it.

As to the last question, I believe Egwene is falling into the trap. She needs people who don't bow and scrape to her. Nyneave probably could help but Egwene too busy getting off on bullying her. Bryne, Gawyn, Elayne, some others could help, but despite what she said about wanting friends, she doesn't. This is exemplified by her treatment of Suian, Gawyn and Bryne when they rescue her.

 

Agreed.

 

I am doing a re-read to get ready for the last book, and Crossroads was my last one I actually read (or skimmed through but that's another story.) So Egwene is the Headcheese now.. is she reforming or falling into the same AS trap Lucker's has pointed out in his wonderful post?

 

From the internal thoughts we get in TGS and ToM it seems as if she knows the AS need to change. She mourns the state of the WT and is starting to reform with the WO and WF exchange program.

 

ToM "An Invitation"

If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title.

 

My understanding of it was that Eg was clever enough to realise that things had changed, that therefore the WT had to change in order to manipulate the other groups. From everything Eg had seen so far then the group best suited to actually lead a coalition of female channelers would be the wise ones, who acknowledge skill above strength and even then allow everyone to have an opinion. Why does Eg assume WT is best suited to control?

 

 

 

 

Just to clarify a few things. Let me preface this by saying the WT as an institution has failed in recent times. However contrary to some of what has been stated we know the Yellow's use their eyes and ears network to search out and send sisters to heal out breaks of disease etc. and per BS Green's do have a presence on the blight and spend time patrolling it with their warders.

 

Also for people that seem to think the majority of AS spend all their time in the WT, think of every Sisters room we have seen described. They all have items gained from years spent adventuring around the world. Even the most unlikely of sisters.

 

TGS

Meidani's quarters were surprisingly comfortable and homey. Egwene had always viewed the Grays as similar to the Whites, lacking passion, perfect diplomats who didn't have time for personal emotions or frivolities.

 

These rooms, however, hinted at a woman who loved to travel. Maps hung within delicate frames, centered on the walls like prized pieces of art. A pair of Aiel spears hung on either side of one map; another was a map of the Sea Folk islands. While many might have opted for the porcelain keepsakes that were so commonly associated with the Sea Folk, Meidani had a small collection of earrings and painted shells, carefully framed and displayed, along with a small plaque beneath listing dates of collection.

 

The sitting room was like a museum dedicated to one person's journeys. An Altaran marriage knife, set with four twinkling rubies, hung beside a small Cairhienin banner and a Shienar sword. Each had a small plaque explaining its significance. The marriage knife, for instance, had been presented to Meidani for her help in settling a dispute between two houses over the death of a particularly important landowner. His wife had given her the knife as a token of thanks.

 

Who would have thought that the cowering woman of the dinner a few weeks back would have such a proud collection? The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter. It was of strange design, woven from what seemed to be tiny, dyed reeds, with tufts of an exotic gray fur trimming the edges. The pattern depicted exotic creatures with long necks.

 

Meidani herself sat on a curious chair made from woven wicker boughs, crafted to look like a growing thicket of branches that just happened to take the shape of a chair. It would have been horribly out of place in any other room in the Tower, but it fit within these quarters, where each item was different, none of them related yet somehow all connected with the common theme of gifts received during travels.

 

Actually I don't think Meidani is a good example of this, as a grey she should have travelled a lot as a negotiator. Agree with other commenst about green and yellow though.

 

 

I think that in A Memory of Light, the White Tower will merge with the true Black Tower (guided by Rand) and become once again the legendary Hall of the Servants. Rand is, after all, the only male Aes Sedai to have survived the Breaking without going over to the Shadow. That knowledge of the Hall of the Servants in the Age of Legends is so important to resolving the issues facing both towers.

 

 

Technically by that argument he's the only Aes Sedai to survive the Breaking without going over to the Dark Side :)

 

 

Rand would likely have been a lot more positive towards the Aes Sedai had they not continuously schemed against him, attempted to manipulate him, or outright abused him. Egwene is a case in point, for the first few books she saw it as her job to verbally abuse Rand and give him grief all because he did not want to be used and manipulated by Moiraine, to her the fact that he would dare to ignore an AS was outrageous...

 

Did Moiraine disabuse her of this? no because for a while she actually agreed with Egwene, it wasnt until she realised it wouldnt work that she agreed to be honest with Rand and help him do what he wanted to do... you know like an adviser would do rather than a puppet master, that Rand and Moiraine actually developed a decent working relationship.

 

Which is why I think Moiraine actually proves more adaptable than Cads, Mo changes tactics when she sees they're not working, Cads may have done but left it far to late.

 

[Just went back to the Great Hunt

 

16 Warders, 14 AS. Each green had 2, but each Red has none. 2 sisters from each color, and the seat and keeper. So, even if every sister besides the red had 1 (Which is a stretch) and the greens have 2 each. That leads us with... 14 AS, yet there were 16 Warders? (One of those warders rode off on his own before they left Fal Dara as well, with no AS)

 

Again, more warders than the AS can account for.

 

So either, in the first two books, warders went about on their own more, or the term "Warder" was more loosely applied. Something was going on.

 

I actually make it 17 sisters, present. 2 from each ajah, the keeper, amyrlin and Moiraine. Although someone else pointed out that their were 4 sisters without warders, while the green doubled up which would make it 15 warders for the aes sedai, so it still doesn't quite work.

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I actually make it 17 sisters, present. 2 from each ajah, the keeper, amyrlin and Moiraine. Although someone else pointed out that their were 4 sisters without warders, while the green doubled up which would make it 15 warders for the aes sedai, so it still doesn't quite work.

 

I left Moraine out because she didn't come with the party, and she and Lan basically evened out and could be not counted without throwing anything off.

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Did Moiraine disabuse her of this? no because for a while she actually agreed with Egwene, it wasnt until she realised it wouldnt work that she agreed to be honest with Rand and help him do what he wanted to do... you know like an adviser would do rather than a puppet master, that Rand and Moiraine actually developed a decent working relationship.

 

The funny thing is when Moiraine decides to submit it is only because she was looking for a new way to control him for all that she had good intentions. If she was being honest with Rand she wouldn't have played out any of her little betrayals such as going behind his back in order to try and get the WOs to have the Aiel not cross the Dragonwall. That was in direct conflict with his orders. She wouldn't have done that if she was just "advising".

Edited by Suttree

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Did Moiraine disabuse her of this? no because for a while she actually agreed with Egwene, it wasnt until she realised it wouldnt work that she agreed to be honest with Rand and help him do what he wanted to do... you know like an adviser would do rather than a puppet master, that Rand and Moiraine actually developed a decent working relationship.

 

The funny thing is when Moiraine decides to submit it is only because she was looking for a new way to control him for all that she had good intentions. If she was being honest with Rand she wouldn't have played out any of her little betrayals such as going behind his back in order to try and get the WOs to have the Aiel not cross the Dragonwall. That was in direct conflict with his orders. She wouldn't have done that if she was just "advising".

You cant expect AS to give up all attempts at manipulation, can you? I mean, Moiraine is a great gal, but some things are just too hard to change that fast ;)

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If she was being honest with Rand she wouldn't have played out any of her little betrayals such as going behind his back in order to try and get the WOs to have the Aiel not cross the Dragonwall.

That was prior to her oath.

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This is a fantastic analysis.

 

Early in the books, I was surprised when we learned that the Aes Sedai: nearly 1000 of them. In EOTW, Moraine was unique everywhere she went... it made perfect sense in the 2 rivers, and Baerlon... but Camlyn? One of the greatest cities in the world. And Fal Dara, the second largest city in Shienar, where Aes Sedai seem revered, there? What did they all do? Isnt >100 Red Ajah to handle the 8 men who could channel in 16 years? An entire Ajah devoted to healing, when it is a single weave - what do they study the rest of the time? White and Brown, dedicated to Logic and Knowlegde, but no innovation with the power on a regular basis, why are there not more weaves since the end of the breaking, instead of less? They were stagnant, as a culture, and isolated from the world in there own ... ahem ... Ivory Tower. Some few went out to do good, but remainder dud what.

 

I wonder if the problems began with the oath against falsehoods. Telling the absolute truth became impractical, So using misdirection, obfuscation and mystery become tools to give themselves leeway in interpersonal dealings. This work quite well, so it is incorporated into the training and dogma of the Aes Sedai (as Luckers mentioned above, the most pompous line in the books "There is knowledge that would burn any mind but an Aes Sedai" is the flagship example). Its a tool that increased the influence of the tower, but mystery at its heart is rooted in uncertainty, which too soon becomes fear. Furthermore this sort of thing limits honest communication, at least with the rest of the populace creating further distance.

 

The culture of the WT discourages marriage, but how? Surprisingly Its not the imbalance of power that separates women who can channel from non-powered partners: the Sea Folk and the Aiel seem to handle it just fine. Ashamen remain married (although I believe this was not true of all of them, but they had a much harder road until the taint was cleaned). Does an oath against lying make one feel too vulnerable to make deeper bond for all but the women of strongest character? Does this standard issue inscrutability result in intimidating all but the strongest of all potential non-channeling partners?

 

ITs interesting stuff. Thanks

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I like to think, that part of the calamities that the tower have put themselves into, lies squarely, not with the tower, but with Isha'mael, and the Black Ajah, that has basically since it's creation, been manipulating tower politics towards making the tower ineffectual.

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I think you might be right about that. But I also think the pressures on the Aes Sedai have been steadily increasing over the centuries, and the more they try to act against those pressures the more problems it causes, but that they didnt have a great deal of choice.

 

Think of it from their point of view though. For a thousand years, the Aes Sedai have been becoming weaker and weaker on average, they've been finding fewer women who can channel. This has to have had an effect on the psyche of the women in power as well as the normal sisters, as they would feel the need to preserve what they could preserve and try to make up for the lack of power with bravado, mystique and arrogance.

 

Then you have the worlds growing hostility towards them. The Whitecloaks have had a lot to do with this, but if you count Tear as well as being fairly anti-Aes Sedai, then there is a growing trend as the Whitecloaks continue to expand, that women who can channel are under greater pressure and danger, during a time when the Aes Sedai are struggling to keep the numbers coming in...

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Reds – Take upon themselves the responsibility for stopping another breaking of the world. They do seek out men who can channel quite assiduously, which is in a way fulfilling that purpose, but where were the efforts to cleanse saidin? They’ve claimed this responsibility, but all they’ve done is attempted to treat the symptom, and done nothing about the illness itself. They, in effect, let their personal feelings get in the way of serving the job they’ve taken upon themselves, and that is more than a failure—it’s distasteful.

 

Well the Aes Sedai as a whole did try, they tried during the Breaking and they tried for three centuries after to find a cure for their men so the Reds can not be blamed for there being taint. Now I agree that Ajah have more than it's fair share of idiocy but in their defense they do believe that cleansing saidin is impossible, and really until Rand and Nyn comes along it is. First someone have to come up with how and it is not like it is obvious, but they need someone strong enough to do it and they have not had that before late in the books. The Red Ajah would not have been able to cleanse saidin. Now they can be blamed for how they deal with things, and for being aggressive fanatics that treat the men they hunt down poorly more often than not but that they are dealing with the symptom and not the cause, I do not really think you can blame them for that.

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Reading everything about the AoL that I can, it sounds like the Aes Sedai back then were full of in fighting, corruption, narcissism and all that sort of jazz as well, just organized differently. So this time the Creator/Pattern gave Rand girls and friends from his own village as well as the Aiel. So he certainly has Nynaeve in his corner, probably Elayne, but apparently Egwene was even more stubborn than the Creator thought. He doesn't have power buddies, he has super non powered generals, so no feelings of jealousy like with Dem and Sammy.

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So he certainly has Nynaeve in his corner, probably Elayne

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Elayne looked troubled.

 

but apparently Egwene was even more stubborn than the Creator thought.

 

Given that Rand purposely antagonized her, refused to discuss the situation, and didn't have a plan besides "I hope Min figures things out" she really had no other choice but to question him. Regardless if you have read the AMoL advance material you know Egwene is shown in a much better light now in relation to this topic.

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I feel that it should be pointed out that the White Tower was also under a lot of pressure to fail. The creation of the Black Ajah, and by continuity the corruption of the Aes Sedai, has been the primary goal of the Shadow for the past, what, 1500 years? During the Trolloc Wars, the White Tower was the ones who were able to band the forces of the Light together and push the Trollocs back. Despite the Shadow managing to literally turn all of Randland against the Aes Sedai, they were able to survive that, not without a major blow to their image. I have no doubt that a large amount of rumors and suspicion was spread directly from darkfriends under orders, regardless of location. Ishmael, Messana, and Aran'gar all made the White Tower a personal project. After all of this work, the Shadow was able to get the White Tower to engage in a civil war--which they refused to fight, knowing that they must preserve the Tower as a whole for Tarmon Gai'don. And the Shadow's was able to keep them divided--for a time, at least, until they all united behind Egwene and regained full strength. So the Shadow's greatest gambit since the Trolloc Wars ended up serving as a delaying action.

 

Let's compare it to other forces around the world, shall we? Nonchanneling Nations: Little more than chess pieces for the Forsaken and the Shadow. The Seachan: Massively problematic for Rand, with just ideological differences. They might pose a problem for the Shadow, but they also pose a problem for the forces of light. The Aiel: Half of them, including a few hundred channelers, turned on Rand because Asmodean drew a Dragon on some guys shoulder. Sea Folk: Either they are about to attack Randland (if Mik is right) or they have been untouched by the Shadow, and regardless haven't been all that helpful.

 

The White Tower has failed in some aspects, but it has been held as a beacon against the Shadow continuously for the last 3,000 years, despite massive pressure from the Shadow to do the exact opposite. Their greatest flaw is certainly arrogance, but they have shown willingness to do whatever is necessary to bring down the Shadow--although what they think is "necessary" can often be misguided.

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So he certainly has Nynaeve in his corner, probably Elayne

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Elayne looked troubled.

 

but apparently Egwene was even more stubborn than the Creator thought.

 

Given that Rand purposely antagonized her, refused to discuss the situation, and didn't have a plan besides "I hope Min figures things out" she really had no other choice but to question him. Regardless if you have read the AMoL advance material you know Egwene is shown in a much better light now in relation to this topic.

 

He manipulated her because he knew exactly how she would react. Had she changed at all from the knee jerk object to anything he said mode from their time together earlier in their lives it would not have worked.

 

Edit, oh and I think one moment of hesitation by Nynaeve does not necessarily mean she will not back him though Egwene may oppose him.

Edited by Viperswhip

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He manipulated her because he knew exactly how she would react. Had she changed at all from the knee jerk object to anything he said mode from their time together earlier in their lives it would not have worked.

 

Edit, oh and I think one moment of hesitation by Nynaeve does not necessarily mean she will not back him though Egwene may oppose him.

 

I never said it means she won't back him but it isn't as cut and dry as you made out. Further Egwene has supported him a number of times throughout the story and even thinks how important it is to view him as Rand so that he can be trusted with the world. Even her most ardent haters agree that he left her no choice here. She had to question him based on that meeting and all of his actions leading up to it, you need to view this from an in world perspective and take away all the info we as readers know(she has no idea he has LTT's knowledge at that point, only Fel, Min and Rand have knowledge of the prison, what he is saying goes against thousands of years of info people take for granted in world as truth and she has been receiving reports of his decent into madness/atrocities(also keep in mind Rand still doesn't know how to seal the DO, he is hoping Min can find the answers). Regardless this old argument concerning the meeting is pretty much moot at this point. The AMoL pre release materials clear a bunch of info up on where she was coming from(for all that it reads like a retcon of sorts).

Edited by Suttree

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Oh I do, I don't dislike Egwene, though she has annoyed me at times. I agree she was manipulated there. I am not one who castigated her for that, but I was merely making the point that I think the pattern was rather hoping to avoid another Latra Posae and thus made sure the Amyrlin was from Rand's village.

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