Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The Life and Times of An Aes Sedai


Luckers
 Share

Recommended Posts

The Green Ajah is the second largest Ajah. The Red Ajah which was the largest had 200 members, so let's put the Green at 150-170. They should be able to station a group at every borderfort.

 

 

Every border fort? I doubt that. Lets say that, optimistically, half of the Greens were on the border - that's 50-80...which would break down to 20 or so per kingdom, and that's nowhere near enough to station one at every fort. That does not explain why there weren't any in sheinar in EotW, or why they were completely absent in Malkier, but it does explain the general "sparsity" of Greens along the border.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 196
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

It would be interesting to hear about a group of green's, some blues and some yellow, banding together and actively pushing back the blight... Or even making a laboratory and doing experiments on what the Blight actually is, finding ways to cleanse it, and otherwise obliterating it more efficiently. Maybe even getting rid of the giant worm things... Or put the fear of the light back into Trollocs and fades.

Edited by Plato
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't doubt that Aes Sedai travel, or even that they do useful things when they travel. But if Lan, who spent a great deal of time near and in the Blight, thinks you can sometimes go a whole year without seeing Aes Sedai in the Borderlands, then that puts a hole in the theory that Greens put any significant effort into guarding the Blight.

 

Can it be called a theory if the author says it's so?

RJ's word is indisputable. While Brandon obviously has access to all notes, he seems to leave most research up to Team Jordan and has sometimes given incorrect information when answering questions from fans (like about Cyndane's OP strength) or clearly just guessed what he thought was the likely answer. In this case, he wasn't quoting RJ's notes, he said: "I would say that yes, they are up there guarding. There are a disproportionate number, it seems, at times." Like I said above, I believe he was thinking of the 13 Aes Sedai with the Borderlander army, which weren't originally staying with the monarchs. His claim that Borderlanders often have more Aes Sedai advisors is directly contradicted by Ethenielle saying they all used to have only one advisor each. So in this case, I believe the books over Brandon.

 

In addition we know they are up there from the text in EotW(thanks Terez!) A few of multiple samples.

My argument isn't that Aes Sedai and Warders never visit the Borderlands or the Blight, but that Greens don't put any significant effort into guarding the Blight, which is supported by 1) Lan saying you could go a year without seeing Aes Sedai in the Borderlands, 2) not a single Aes Sedai being around to help Malkier or Shienar, 3) when Egwene wants information about the Borderlands in ToM, she asks Siuan to contact the eyes-and-ears network. Not a word about any Warder or Aes Sedai stationed there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My argument isn't that Aes Sedai and Warders never visit the Borderlands or the Blight, but that Greens don't put any significant effort into guarding the Blight, which is supported by 1) Lan saying you could go a year without seeing Aes Sedai in the Borderlands, 2) not a single Aes Sedai being around to help Malkier or Shienar, 3) when Egwene wants information about the Borderlands in ToM, she asks Siuan to contact the eyes-and-ears network. Not a word about any Warder or Aes Sedai stationed there.

 

But Agelmar reports each country receiving word from AS and Warders that seem to be stationed there.

 

EotW

None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here, but they believe

 

That wouldn't be someone just randomly wandering through. That combined with BS's quote is good enough for me.

 

Also as mentioned earlier, not sure about Shienar but Malkeir was a sneak attack that came out of nowhere from a DF plot pre-travelling. Any small numbers in the area would have been swept away just like the Malkieri.

Edited by Suttree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

in new spring chapter 7 Moirane says the green havent fought the shadow since the trolloc wars but it did imply they were involed in other causes indirectly through there warders. The second part of the that seemed odd to me. what other causes would they fight for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Suttree, Sheinar did have time to gather its forces back in TEotW, and Easar was definitely in attendance. It stands to reason that, were any AS stationed in Sheinar, they would've found their way to that army. The fact that none has is either early-book-ism, or evidence that not that many are actually present along the Border at any given time.

Lord Agelmar, armored and helmeted now like his soldiers, rode with the Black Hawk banner and the Three Foxes from the East Gate toward the sun, still only a red sliver above the trees. Like a steel snake undulating to mounted kettle-drums, the column wound its way out of the town four abreast, Agelmar at its head hidden in the forest before its tail left Fal Data keep. [...] Eastward they would join other steel serpents, from Fal Moran, behind King Easar himself with his sons at his side, and from Ankor Dail, that held the Eastern Marches and guarded the Spine of the World; from Mos Shirare and Fal Sion and Camron Caan, and all the other fortresses in Shienar, great and small. Joined into a greater serpent, they would turn north to Tarwin's Gap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suttree, Sheinar did have time to gather its forces back in TEotW, and Easar was definitely in attendance. It stands to reason that, were any AS stationed in Sheinar, they would've found their way to that army. The fact that none has is either early-book-ism, or evidence that not that many are actually present along the Border at any given time.

Lord Agelmar, armored and helmeted now like his soldiers, rode with the Black Hawk banner and the Three Foxes from the East Gate toward the sun, still only a red sliver above the trees. Like a steel snake undulating to mounted kettle-drums, the column wound its way out of the town four abreast, Agelmar at its head hidden in the forest before its tail left Fal Data keep. [...] Eastward they would join other steel serpents, from Fal Moran, behind King Easar himself with his sons at his side, and from Ankor Dail, that held the Eastern Marches and guarded the Spine of the World; from Mos Shirare and Fal Sion and Camron Caan, and all the other fortresses in Shienar, great and small. Joined into a greater serpent, they would turn north to Tarwin's Gap.

 

Yeah I noticed the other day that I was confusing Agelmar telling the Malkier story with the current time. Thanks for pointing that out. What is odd about the whole thing is Agelmar talks of getting word from Warder scouts(where are the sisters?) stationed in each country. In addition we know per BS they are up there a see many advisers with each in the tPoD prologue. To me the whole thing is one of the more glaring early bookisms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

in new spring chapter 7 Moirane says the green havent fought the shadow since the trolloc wars but it did imply they were involed in other causes indirectly through there warders. The second part of the that seemed odd to me. what other causes would they fight for.

Police robbers, darkfriends, murderers, and so on? Maybe it just means that they patrol a populated area, without actually venturing into the Blight and waging war on the Shadow on their own ground?

 

They might also be involved in helping out with other Ajah's missions (Red's?)? Someone said (was it Sheriam?) that all AS do some of each, when explaining what different Ajah's do ... This was the AS themselves, but their warders might help guard people, and so on.

Edited by Nightstrike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i go along with people say about no AS along the borderlands. i mean even if it wasn't a full compliment of greens. 2 gr an 1 bl and either y/ br/ rd. its the blight do studies for brown/ yellow and red interested in channelers.

 

another thing. it seems to me Wise women were what yellows should have been.

 

the greens were supposed to be the battle ajah. the seanchan taught them different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i go along with people say about no AS along the borderlands. i mean even if it wasn't a full compliment of greens. 2 gr an 1 bl and either y/ br/ rd. its the blight do studies for brown/ yellow and red interested in channelers.

Are you saying that 2 greens and another one would make the difference? What makes you so sure there weren't 2 greens and another one in those nation?

 

 

another thing. it seems to me Wise women were what yellows should have been.

Do you mean the Wisdoms? I'm not sure all those could channel, and I think many would not be as skilled with Healing as Nynaeve. All Wisdoms were supposed to be able to "Listen to the Wind", but not all could touch the True Source. Or maybe you meant the Kin? I think they might have had some things right. I wonder if they were allowed to work so near the Whitecloaks because they worked in secret? Some of those they Healed would probably have refused if it had been Aes Sedai (they did cause the Breaking).

 

 

the greens were supposed to be the battle ajah. the seanchan taught them different.
Yes, I agree. They could have been more worthy of the title. Edited by Nightstrike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

nah i meant to get them active in patrolling. if there were not enough greens to do it have a few from other ajahs go along and use other reasons to at least field some type of group to at least make formal patrols. greens and add in a brown to do a study, same for yellow, toss a blue or red saying to check for dfs and / or male channelers. give some type of reason to morivate other ajahs to help patrol if greens couldn't do it alone.

 

not wisdoms. the wise women w/ red belts that had their inner circle called the kin. not all were channelers. i was saying they had it right because they worked w/ herbs/ medicines and channeling. how Luckers brought up how the yellow ajah should have been. remember there was one that had healing as good as Ny. remember when the wonder girls were in the traveling circus and near WCloak area it was men that did the medicine forget what they called him. women were afraid because if caught and they didnt channel they would still be accused.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Personally I think one of the biggest problems that the Aes Sedai have is that there are no Male Aes Sedai, and until the two halves are united again, they will never ever return to any semblance of greatness.

 

They are essentially trying to play "mother knows best." with the entire world, even though they have secluded themselves away from humanity so that they are no longer capable of knowing the correct choice. This is in my opinion what led to them needing the three oaths, because everyone got so sick of the amount of manipulation going on.

 

Im 99% certain that the Oath rod wasnt used until after the Trolloc wars(2,000 years pre-rand) anyone able to correct me on this? pretty sure it was because they over-reached their hands trying to manipulate kingdoms and such. And it was then that the decline started to become more apparent.

 

 

Afterall the first Milliennia after the breaking they would still have a great deal of knowledge and interaction with people who lived in the AoL or were taught by people who lived in AoL. As that interaction waned it would of course cause people to try and be what they "think" they should be which would be tainted by nostalgia...

 

i.e "Everyone listened to the AS in the AoL... so they should damned well listen to us now as we are the AS!" they ignored the reason for why people listened and respected them. it wasnt because they were trying to control everyone, boss them about and act like they're gods gift.

 

 

Egwene needs Rand(LTT) to resume his position as Tamylrin again. as He is the only one who has any knowldge(without being corrupted) of how to make the AS return to what it used to be when it was successful. Because no matter how competetant she is, she's still a presumptious lil twit who thinks she knows best, hell shes trying to tell Rand what to do when he has memories giving him hundreds of years worth of experience.. because she has learned so much in 20 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are essentially trying to play "mother knows best." with the entire world, even though they have secluded themselves away from humanity so that they are no longer capable of knowing the correct choice. This is in my opinion what led to them needing the three oaths, because everyone got so sick of the amount of manipulation going on.

 

Yeah the three oaths were enacted between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years to show the world that the OP was not a threat. Not sure what you mean though that AS have secluded themselves away? At any given time mroe than 1/3 of the WT is out working for good in the world. Every sisters room that we see is filled with objects from a long life lived adventuring outside the WT.

 

Egwene needs Rand(LTT) to resume his position as Tamylrin again. as He is the only one who has any knowldge(without being corrupted) of how to make the AS return to what it used to be when it was successful. Because no matter how competetant she is, she's still a presumptious lil twit who thinks she knows best, hell shes trying to tell Rand what to do when he has memories giving him hundreds of years worth of experience.. because she has learned so much in 20 years.

 

First off Tamrylin was not a title, it was a name. The leader of the AS would wear the "Ring of Tamylrin". The men and women do indeed need to join but the prevailing sentiment is Logain will fill the leader role and attain his "glory". Lastly in regards to Egwene you are making the mistake of looking at things from a reader perspective not an "in world" one. Rand walked into the WT almost directly after coming down DM. No one had any idea of his "Zen Rand" moment and the words were that of a seeming madman(which all available reports indicated he was). Further he antagonized her purposely to oppose him and refused to give her any info as to why he needed to break the seals(part of that may be Min hasn't found the answers he needs yet). It is Egwene's duty to question things until Rand lays out a rational course of action. There is really not much else she could have done given how Rand handled the situation.

Edited by Suttree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Sutt, just wanted to point out, if you read the first and second books it strongly gives the impression that there are more "warders" than AS and warders go on solo missions a lot, and more than Greens can account for. Easy examples, the amount of Warders at Fal Dara compared to the amount of AS, The amount of warders at Calmyn escortng Logain when Mor said all those sisters were reds.

 

There were a few others, I can't recall them now, I aksed about it in a thread a little bit ago, no one responded.I just assumed it was something that was worked out in later books, so the first two kinda treated warders differently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Sutt, just wanted to point out, if you read the first and second books it strongly gives the impression that there are more "warders" than AS and warders go on solo missions a lot, and more than Greens can account for. Easy examples, the amount of Warders at Fal Dara compared to the amount of AS, The amount of warders at Calmyn escortng Logain when Mor said all those sisters were reds.

 

Go back and read the other threads where you brought this up. I already provided qoutes showing you were off with the numbers you remembered. For instance there where only a dozen warders escorting Logain in Caemlyn. The numbers were never more than would account for AS having multiple bonded.

 

Regardless we have word of God that there are AS up guarding the blight. That is all that really matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah the three oaths were enacted between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years to show the world that the OP was not a threat. Not sure what you mean though that AS have secluded themselves away? At any given time mroe than 1/3 of the WT is out working for good in the world. Every sisters room that we see is filled with objects from a long life lived adventuring outside the WT.

 

They see themselves as better than everyone else, to the extent that they do not think anyone elses opinion is worth listening to unless they are stronger in the one power. The way they treat most people is like they are cattle that can talk, they expect to be obeyed and prey on fear and manipulation to get people to do what they want, rather than it being the best thing to do.

 

That to me is dehumanising, dont know about you, but I wouldnt care if there were tens of thousands of them running around doing what they feel they should be doing, when they follow their own agenda constantly, care little for anyone elses feelings or opinions, because they put the White Tower first and foremost and even more importantly, they put the standing of infallibility of the WT ahead of the common good, because they cannot bear to admit making any form of mistakes.

 

 

First off Tamrylin was not a title, it was a name. The leader of the AS would wear the "Ring of Tamylrin". The men and women do indeed need to join but the prevailing sentiment is Logain will fill the leader role and attain his "glory". Lastly in regards to Egwene you are making the mistake of looking at things from a reader perspective not an "in world" one. Rand walked into the WT almost directly after coming down DM. No one had any idea of his "Zen Rand" moment and the words were that of a seeming madman(which all available reports indicated he was). Further he antagonized her purposely to oppose him and refused to give her any info as to why he needed to break the seals(part of that may be Min hasn't found the answers he needs yet). It is Egwene's duty to question things until Rand lays out a rational course of action. There is really not much else she could have done given how Rand handled the situation.

 

The title was first among servants im aware of that, but considering the Aes Sedai of Rands time are hardly Servants of All, it seemes more fitting to have Rand or some other male to use a title like Tamylrin to counterbalance the Amylrin seat. Bear in mind that as soon as you assume the Amylrin Seat, you are the Amylrin Seat. Therefore if you wore Tamylrin's Ring then you held the office as the First Among the Aes Sedai, as Tamylrin was the first human to channel(Something which puzzles me somewhat, almost makes me think the One Power might be locked away for an age or so, so that it can be discovered at the End of the 1st Age but thats another thing altogether)

 

 

Thats just it though isnt it. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, no where in the prophecys does it say "Aes Sedai's Lapdog" he is meant to go his own way, they are meant to follow him and obey him because it is his fate to die at the last battle, so you'd think the Aes Sedai would let him do the job he was born to do instead of constantly trying to hobble him and control him into doing what they think needs doing, but they want to try and game the system which they've been doing for thousands of years, to the extent that AS are feared and hated by large portions of the population.

 

Rand would likely have been a lot more positive towards the Aes Sedai had they not continuously schemed against him, attempted to manipulate him, or outright abused him. Egwene is a case in point, for the first few books she saw it as her job to verbally abuse Rand and give him grief all because he did not want to be used and manipulated by Moiraine, to her the fact that he would dare to ignore an AS was outrageous...

 

Did Moiraine disabuse her of this? no because for a while she actually agreed with Egwene, it wasnt until she realised it wouldnt work that she agreed to be honest with Rand and help him do what he wanted to do... you know like an adviser would do rather than a puppet master, that Rand and Moiraine actually developed a decent working relationship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Sutt, just wanted to point out, if you read the first and second books it strongly gives the impression that there are more "warders" than AS and warders go on solo missions a lot, and more than Greens can account for. Easy examples, the amount of Warders at Fal Dara compared to the amount of AS, The amount of warders at Calmyn escortng Logain when Mor said all those sisters were reds.

 

Go back and read the other threads where you brought this up. I already provided qoutes showing you were off with the numbers you remembered. For instance there where only a dozen warders escorting Logain in Caemlyn. The numbers were never more than would account for AS having multiple bonded.

 

Regardless we have word of God that there are AS up guarding the blight. That is all that really matters.

 

Were they there without their AS then? Since all the AS were Red, by Mor's word.

 

I'm not debating your AS guarding the blight theory, I'm asking questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Sutt, just wanted to point out, if you read the first and second books it strongly gives the impression that there are more "warders" than AS and warders go on solo missions a lot, and more than Greens can account for. Easy examples, the amount of Warders at Fal Dara compared to the amount of AS, The amount of warders at Calmyn escortng Logain when Mor said all those sisters were reds.

 

Go back and read the other threads where you brought this up. I already provided qoutes showing you were off with the numbers you remembered. For instance there where only a dozen warders escorting Logain in Caemlyn. The numbers were never more than would account for AS having multiple bonded.

 

Regardless we have word of God that there are AS up guarding the blight. That is all that really matters.

 

Yeah your right there, was 12 or 13, accompanied by the Tower Guardsman, which was trained in part by Warders etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not debating your AS guarding the blight theory, I'm asking questions.

 

It's not a theory when the author, notes and text tell us it is the case.

 

Also as I mentioned in the other thread there were more than just Reds in the party that captured Logain. Cads was the ringleader of a group of mixed AS.

 

@ Morden

You'll get no argument from any quarters that the WT as an institution has failed. Doesn't change the fact that they have been the main force to hold the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. Would you really expect a group like that to realistically not think they know best after that long? Either way overall they have been a force for good and their goals are still to lead the light in the fight against the shdaow. Now whether they are still best suited for that task is a whole different discussion.

 

Also keep in mind that of the reports Egwene has been hearing about Rand and his desacent into madness. Heck even Nyn concedes Egwene may be right in her assesment of the seals. One thing to keep in mind though is the she must view him as "Rand" line, because Rand can be trusted with the world. Just saying people should hold judgement until Min figures out how to seal the bore and Rand actually comes up with a plan. If Eggy listens to reason and throws her support behind him then the all the condemnation of her reactions will be a bit premature no?

Edited by Suttree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not debating your AS guarding the blight theory, I'm asking questions.

 

It's not a theory when the author, notes and text tell us it is the case.

 

Also as I mentioned in the other thread there were more than just Reds in the party that captured Logain. Cads was the ringleader of a group of mixed AS.

 

We also know that there were 10 or so just with the Borderland rulers when they came south... thats just people in the capital cities, not on the borderforts or patrolling the area's between. I would be surprised if there were less than 20-30

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not debating your AS guarding the blight theory, I'm asking questions.

 

It's not a theory when the author, notes and text tell us it is the case.

 

Also as I mentioned in the other thread there were more than just Reds in the party that captured Logain. Cads was the ringleader of a group of mixed AS.

 

@ Morden

You'll get no argument from any quarters that the WT as an institution has failed. Doesn't change the fact that they have been the main force to hold the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. Would you really expect a group like that to realistically not think they know best after that long? Either way overall they have been a force for good and their goals are still to lead the light in the fight against the shdaow. Now whether they are still best suited for that task is a whole different discussion.

 

Also keep in mind that of the reports Egwene has been hearing about Rand and his desacent into madness. Heck even Nyn concedes Egwene may be right in her assesment of the seals. One thing to keep in mind though is the she must view him as "Rand" line, because Rand can be trusted with the world. Just saying people should hold judgement until Min figures out how to seal the bore and Rand actually comes up with a plan. If Eggy listens to reason and throws her support behind him then the all the condemnation of her reactions will be a bit premature no?

 

And yet an AS stated every Red in the City was Red, aside from her.

 

Of course perhaps every AS didn't stay to escort Logaine, I'm not sure how it worked.

 

I also don't know what thread I asked that question.

 

No need to get fussy about my useage of the word theory.

 

For the record, the text mentioned Warders in some of those you menitoned, apparently warders go off alone, we see that in text too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course perhaps every AS didn't stay to escort Logaine, I'm not sure how it worked.

 

I actually don't recall that being correct. You were off on the numbers so are you confident here? No biggie but would be interested in reading the quote if you have it handy.

 

Edit: As I thought, they weren't all Reds.

 

]Question[/b]

What about those Warders in Caemlyn around Logain in The Eye of the World? Didn't Moiraine say that they were all Red sisters? Reds don't have Warders!

 

Robert Jordan

 

Moiraine never mentioned the sisters escorting Logain (not all of whom were Red Ajah). The ones with Logain weren't in Caemlyn at the time. Moiraine was referring to those that were in Caemlyn. There is something explaining this in Lord of Chaos. Remember that the interleaving of plot threads goes backward as well as forward.

Edited by Suttree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like to point out that most AS stay in the tower becuase that is the best way for them to gain prestige among those they conside equals, whereas if they where out of the tower they may get respect and such but they would also be working and only be getting their due respect. This accompanied by the stated resentment/distrust of aes sedai caused them to stop leaving the tower resulting in the reduction of AS expeditions into the world.

 

There are cases that indicate that this isn't true. Look at Cadsuane. She is among the most legendary of Aes Sedai, and she actively avoided the Tower to the extent that most thought he dead. Moiraine is another example. She may be THE most legendary Aes Sedai, and she also avoided the Tower as much as possible. Staying in the Tower and playing politics may be the easiest way to build esteem with your colleagues, but I would disagree that it is the only way, or even the BEST way. I think the ones who go into the world and make their names are more respected, but their trials are greater.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...