Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Disappointed with the Green Ajah


Recommended Posts

The Green Ajah have always been one of my favorite Ajahs. I don't think I am alone here. Plus Green sisters often have multiple warders. Very cool. Yet, I am frustrated. Especially after the events of Gathering Storm.

 

SPOILER*** I was disappointed with the Green Ajah's response to the Seanchan during their attack on the WT. I mean, come on aren't they supposed to be the BATTLE AJAH??? They are the antithesis of the DO's dreadlords!! At least... so I thought. If they are going to fight the dreadlords (likely including all of the Black Ajah that escaped Egwene's wrath)then I am very worried. They couldn't even pull it together against a small raiding force of Seanchan. Yes the Seanchan had surprise , yes they planned it well, but still... The Green were as dazed as everyone else. You'd think after a couple thousand years the Greens would have a few emergency plans and battle weaves up their sleeves to deal with such situations.

 

Adelorna Bastine described it best herself, "The Battle Ajah indeed! The Greens with her had stood only minutes before being defeated" (p. 630). As Captain-General of the Green she didn't have it together and was nearly caught. Luckily Egwene managed to represent the Aes Sedai with some dignity. So as the situation stands, the LB is quickly approaching and the Greens are supposed to show power in times of war and they're supposed to be great strategists. I don't see it. The LB will have a physical and metaphysical dimension, with the one power in use obviously. As I've said before it won't be another Falme. RJ is going to surprise us. It will be awesome. Hopefully the world will gather it's troops and march with Rand (to Lan's aid?). Will the Seanchan join with Rand?

 

The devastation that will be wrought with the one power is likely to be incredible. The Ashaman will be there and angreal and sa'angreal will be wielded. But remember... "the battle will not be fought as you might think." With all the channelers who will be taking part, what will the Green do? Supposedly in the past the Green had climactic battles with the dread lords. Do you think they will get it together, or have they lost too much of their historic talent?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I too favor the Green Ajah, tho I put it down to the three Oath's as being somewhat the blame, and the loss of Weaves and Talents? Making the common people feel safe with them has actually put them now in a position to be utterly helpless and in danger! All they need is training and practice, maybe even some of Egwene's Aiel training lol,I hope the Green will get some action if they ever intend to Rescue the 40 or so Aes Sedai that have been captured by the Seanchan? It looks like things WILL get better with the Tower now with Egwene the Amyrlin.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea, it has been so long since aes sedai really fought... and we must remember that there is a good chance that at least some of the dreadlords will have weaves from the AoL, and considering even the asha'man used the weaves Rand did at the manor house, and we know asha'man are far better than aes sedai at fighting, then we can only assume the dreadlords will make the green ajah and everyone else for that matter look like children. So, the question then becomes how is Ewgene going the salvage the situation in the short time left?

 

Personally i think they should let the captured damane teach them, after all some have been living weapons for centuries.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally i think they should let the captured damane teach them, after all some have been living weapons for centuries.

Yet they've been directed in their efforts by someone else. You can see that it's not enough when Alivia meets Cyndane. You really need training to face another accomplished channeler. Nynaeve did it just fine when she met Moghedian, and they were balanced in the Power. Alivia had the edge, if you consider only strength, but Cyndane very nearly killed her.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yet they've been directed in their efforts by someone else. You can see that it's not enough when Alivia meets Cyndane. You really need training to face another accomplished channeler. Nynaeve did it just fine when she met Moghedian, and they were balanced in the Power. Alivia had the edge, if you consider only strength, but Cyndane very nearly killed her.

 

It's called practice...pit them in sparring matches, and throw in the skills Alivia has, and I'm certain Eguwane has some neat spell combos in her back pocket somewhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's called practice...pit them in sparring matches, and throw in the skills Alivia has, and I'm certain Eguwane has some neat spell combos in her back pocket somewhere.

So you agree that any damane will require extensive training before she's able to hold her ground against a Dreadlord?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Couple of points--one, it's the 'Battle Ajah', not the 'Duel Ajah'. I agree the damane would not be prepared for duels, but battle... there is a difference between facing someone one on one, and fighting as a part of an army. To my eyes the damane have all the experience there, and the so-called Battle Ajah has a very great deal to learn from them.

 

As for a damane holding her ground against a Dreadlord? Depends on how extensively the Shadow are training their Dreadlords. Against an Aes Sedai--one on one I reckon the Aes Sedai would win.

 

But an army backed by those with damane training against an army backed by those with Aes Sedai training? Or Dreadlord training, really.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the Green Ajah has just been diluted over the years, like all sisters. If peace has reigned for so many years, and the only test of the Green Ajah has been a battle of men, then most of the time they won't get any practice. Even the Trolloc Wars were fought by men, and not really by Aes Sedai. Sure, they throw a few fireballs when necessary, but how long has it been since the Power was REALLY used in battle?

 

The Green fell into complacancy, not by choice, but by time. Just so much time has passed since there ever was any real need to use the Power in such a way.

 

I think the Seanchan taught them a very valuable lesson, one they needed to learn before the Last Battle.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I partially agree. Yes, the Seanchan have taught a great lesson to Aes Sedai in that regard. But the fact is also that in ther almightiness, the Aes Sedai alreadu thought them prepared. They thought that their own usefullness will be enough to overcome any danger. They are dedicated to different causes, but never do they go where they belong to provide whatever help they can. They remind me of most european medieval religions, who were secluded in their church/temples. Sometimes they did things, but mostly just preach.

 

So bu arrogance, they decayed in knowledge, image among common people, sense of reality, and self esteem and confindence.

 

So I hope the Seanchan strike will have blown them enough in the face to understand that three millenia of unconstructing dedication brought them near the critical edge.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm quoting Luckers from his Life and Times of AS thread because he touched on my biggest criticism of the Greens:

 

Greens – Claim to be the Battle Ajah, and prepare themselves to fight the Shadow, so why do they maintain no presence along the Blight were the fight with the Shadow goes on daily?

 

The Green Ajah is described as being the second largest Ajah after the Red, yet they didn't use those numbers to station themselves where they were needed most. This is dereliction of duty, but on a practical level it means that they have very little real experience with their self-proclaimed task of fighting the DO. Even if they do know battle-weaves that are as effective as the damane (which is doubtful IMHO) they've never had to defend their life with them and they've never used them in concert with an army. If they had been stationed along the Border they would have literally centuries of experience with using their weaves in concert with an army. Even something as simple as the fog Moiraine called up in EotW has dozens of potential uses on a battlefield, so why weren't they working with the Borderland soldiers to take advantage of it against the trollocs? They should have been an Ajah of battle-hardened veterans, with well-depeloped strategies and tactics for using the OP in battle, but they aren't. Some of them might be very skilled at weaving, but most of them are just raw recruits in terms of how they react in battle. This was never more apparent than it was during the Seanchan attack. They should have had some sort of an emergency plan worked out to defend the tower, and they should have been through enough battles to keep their cool and get organised under fire but apparently none of them had enough experience with soldiering to do either. I think they have some very skilled channelers but they'd better get on the ball fast if they intend to be a credible fighting unit in time for TG.

Edited by Sagacious Lu
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, as I read it it was RJ's (and Sanderson's) plot device that made them seem weak and without foucs... The attack was Egwene's road to success. If the Green Ajah had come to the rescue.. that would have left Egwene the lesser of two "goodies".

 

I think also that the instability of the Tower itself affected the Greens. The years of "cold war" between the ajahs also served to make the Greens weaker, all of the ajahs, part from the Black. And now I think that all of it was a very clever and patiently thought out plan of Mesaana's. She orchestrated all the small trickles into one giant flood of problems for the Tower. :) Blame Mesaana.

Link to post
Share on other sites
They should have had some sort of an emergency plan worked out to defend the tower, and they should have been through enough battles to keep their cool and get organised under fire but apparently none of them had enough experience with soldiering to do either. I think they have some very skilled channelers but they'd better get on the ball fast if they intend to be a credible fighting unit in time for TG.

Well they assumed that any attack on the White Tower would be after Tar Valon's bridges were violated. I.e. they would see it coming a long way off.

 

Their real failing is that they didn't make a plan for an unanticipated attack on the White Tower by channelers as soon as they learned (1) how many male channelers were being collected at the Black Tower and (2) that the Black Tower had relearned Traveling.

 

Elaida kept it quiet about what happened at Dumai's Wells, but when it eventually got out that there were upwards of five hundred (I think it is now around a thousand?) with the capability to appear out of nowhere someone should've started talking about being able to roust all sisters to defend a direct strike on the White Tower.

 

I am quite surprised there wasn't a panic induced riot by sisters. Sure they learned of Dumai's Wells days (weeks? months?) after it was over and any logical mind would acknowledge that if the Dragon was going to retaliate he would've done it immediately, instead of allowing them to prepare. But just the prospect of a male channeler army appearing on their doorstep and there not being a planned response for it is beyond belief.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

This is one of the only real points of dissension I have with the series. I always wondered why the supposed Battle Ajah didn't have a bunch of sisters assigned to the blight border helping the borderlanders with trolloc raids and such. And at Tarwin's Gap in EotW, at one of the most likely spots for a trolloc invasion, there are no Greens, no Aes Sedai at all. That always bugged me a little.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one of the only real points of dissension I have with the series. I always wondered why the supposed Battle Ajah didn't have a bunch of sisters assigned to the blight border helping the borderlanders with trolloc raids and such. And at Tarwin's Gap in EotW, at one of the most likely spots for a trolloc invasion, there are no Greens, no Aes Sedai at all. That always bugged me a little.

 

That only means they fit right in with the lack of tangible results the rest of the Ajahs, except for perhaps the Grey's, have produced.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I imagine that the third oath got in the way.

 

The only exemptions to the "Thou must not fry" rule are

-Darkfriends, which the Seanchan are not. Some of them are, but I think the sister has to be sure beyond the looniest shadow of a doubt of their allegiance

-Shadowspawn. Many people see the Raken and think that they are shadowspawn, but the learning center of the world very likely knows what all the different kinds of shadowspawn look like.

-Last extreme defense of her life/that of another sister. The Seanchan were actively trying NOT to kill any. This was a capturing raid. The Bloodknives were left there for when the raid was driven off, but during the raid, they were aiming to incapacitate, not kill. Witness Teslyn and Joline in KOD. They could not help in the battle until their lives were in IMMEDIATE danger.

-LED of her Warder. They certainly were in the last extreme danger, but I think the power must be directed at the threat to the Warder. I have no proof of this bit, though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, the Oath did not get in the way, from the way it was written it was the aes sedai refusing the join other ajahs that prevented a decent stand from being had. And honestly i doubt the aes sedai knew/cared that the seanchan were not really trying to kill them. It is all based on belief, if you truly believe that your life is in danger or worse you can channel.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes the green... "The battle Ajah"

 

I wonder how many of them have actually been in real conflict, and how many spend their days in the tower. We don't train soldiers by letting them rest in hotels and then expect them to deal with war and battle.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm quoting Luckers from his Life and Times of AS thread because he touched on my biggest criticism of the Greens:

 

Greens – Claim to be the Battle Ajah, and prepare themselves to fight the Shadow, so why do they maintain no presence along the Blight were the fight with the Shadow goes on daily?

 

The Green Ajah is described as being the second largest Ajah after the Red, yet they didn't use those numbers to station themselves where they were needed most. This is dereliction of duty, but on a practical level it means that they have very little real experience with their self-proclaimed task of fighting the DO. Even if they do know battle-weaves that are as effective as the damane (which is doubtful IMHO) they've never had to defend their life with them and they've never used them in concert with an army. If they had been stationed along the Border they would have literally centuries of experience with using their weaves in concert with an army. Even something as simple as the fog Moiraine called up in EotW has dozens of potential uses on a battlefield, so why weren't they working with the Borderland soldiers to take advantage of it against the trollocs? They should have been an Ajah of battle-hardened veterans, with well-depeloped strategies and tactics for using the OP in battle, but they aren't. Some of them might be very skilled at weaving, but most of them are just raw recruits in terms of how they react in battle. This was never more apparent than it was during the Seanchan attack. They should have had some sort of an emergency plan worked out to defend the tower, and they should have been through enough battles to keep their cool and get organised under fire but apparently none of them had enough experience with soldiering to do either. I think they have some very skilled channelers but they'd better get on the ball fast if they intend to be a credible fighting unit in time for TG.

Good points, I have often wondered pretty much along similar lines, not only the greens but also the White Cloaks?

Why are they not at the Blight? Because the borderlanders would never put up with their nonsense, if the WC(let's call them that as it is the abbreviation as for Water Closet) wanted to fight the dark they would be shown to the blight.

 

My problem with The Green Agah is where were they when Malkier fell? Why did they not sally forth once it had fallen to reclaim the land for the light? What was their attitude 'Done is done'?

Edited by bigWalt
Link to post
Share on other sites

alright the reason they didnt go take back malkier is because the WT has the complete mindset htat once the blight has taken something it cannot be retrieved, so they didnt attempt it. EDIT I forgot to mention that the fall of Malkier was much to rapid for any help to arrive between the borderguards falling and the main citadels falling since there was a civil war suddenly and the blight was prepared to sweep through thanks to some DF tips

 

as for the Green Ajah being useless I chalk it up to useless beaurocracy, I assume (big assumption btw) that the green ajah members have to do some kind of role call to give a bit of a plan about where they are going in case they are needed, and with no incentives to go out into the world plus hostile attitudes (excludign the borderlands and andor) most AS decide to stay among their own kind, thus almost all of the AS (especially green) have no experience with battle (and personnally I think a few of them chose it because it is the 'cool' ajah)

Edited by Durinax
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the Green Ajah has just been diluted over the years, like all sisters. If peace has reigned for so many years, and the only test of the Green Ajah has been a battle of men, then most of the time they won't get any practice. Even the Trolloc Wars were fought by men, and not really by Aes Sedai. Sure, they throw a few fireballs when necessary, but how long has it been since the Power was REALLY used in battle?

 

There were plenty of Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars

Link to post
Share on other sites

2,000, i believe, the AoL ended 3,000 years before and Hawkwing was 1,000 years before and the Seanchan know about the Trolloc Wars

Breaking of the World lasted 239-344 years.

Compact of the Ten Nations had roughly 1,000 years of relative Peace.

The Trolloc Wars lasted about 350 years.

The Free Years lasted until Artur's death in 994 FY.

The War of the Hundred Years lasted 123 years.

It's currently 1,000 NE.

 

So it's been between 3,706 and 3,811 years since the Age of Legends and about 2,117 since the end of the Trolloc Wars.

Edited by Charlz Guybon
Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget that the White Tower was attacked in the middle of the night. Many of the sisters were in their sleeping attire and either in bed or preparing to go to bed. Surprise is a huge force multiplier.

 

The Aes Sedai are more Nuns than Soldiers. They idea of anyone rousting them from their bed and putting them on a battle line in under a minute (and without allowing them to wash, have breakfast, with tea... etc.) is (was?) preposterous to them.

 

Also, they are dumb (or so arrogant that it has become some sort of "denial delirium"). Sure an attack by the Seanchan on flying monsters was far fetched, but they knew the Black Tower had access to Traveling and suspected the Salidar Aes Sedai also had Traveling. So there were known methods that a hostile force could entirely bypass the bridges and walls. So the real question is, "Why weren't the sisters prepared for an unexpected attack from the Black Tower?" Aes Sedai seem to only credit men who can channel with a talent for destruction, yet they make no visible effort to be able to quickly end such an attack on their home?

 

But part of why the Asha'man are just better soldiers is because most of them are "low born" (this doesn't even factor in that they are trained to be soldiers). Farmers don't have the luxury of bathing in the middle of the night if they here wolf calls. They have to throw on some pants, grab a spear, and get their a**es outside to protect their herd of sheep. Plus the Asha'man are supposed to use the One Power for everything except swordplay, so they are practiced at initiative where usage of the One Power is concerned.

 

The novices/Accepted spend years (often described as decades) in the White Tower living in relative comfort, and part of their initiation ritual of being Accepted is to be "washed clean of your past." Nope, now you're from the White Tower, where everything is awesome. We have servants, yes novices do chores, but that is just hazing to make you humble.

 

That said, I am sure if the Seanchan had made a similar attack on the Black Tower it would've been much more devastating. The Seanchan wanted to procure more damane, if they attacked the Black Tower, it would be to kill, so they would just drop lightning on every building (possibly without even landing). Without being able to see the weaves (to figure out where it was coming from), what sort of counterattack could they mount? The best they could do would be to throw up a barrier over the Black Tower grounds to protect against more attacks. In fact, the only counterattack they could muster would be because of the captured Aes Sedai informing them that the attackers are flying above them, and then it would have to be the Aes Sedai attacking since only they can see the glow of saidar in order to target.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...