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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Val Mickey

A Hero for Our Times

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@Nobs: When the argument doesn't go your way, argue about something else. And when frustrated, insult someone else. Never, ever clarify. Or apologize. Just make stuff up and throw it around, not unlike Kurt Cobain.

 

I agree about Castro, Durinax, but wouldn't Che Guevara be a better choice? Also, why Elizabeth I is Egwene reborn here.

 

Wait, what? The picture wasn't intended to be an instruction to your or anyone else, just something I found that I thought related to the topic of suicide...maybe even break up the heavy mood. I found it shortly after I read your comment about "defending suicide" and thought I'd share it. I didn't mean to put your back up even further. This thread is apparently serious business.

 

 

 

Che Guevara? If just being an epic failure at everything but intimidation and murder is a qualifier for Hero of the Horn, then I'd say he's a front-runner. Otherwise, let's just leave the "social activist extraordinaire" in his grave. Terrible.

 

 

Edit: Enough with the personal attacks.

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Oh, and where's the argument we "bully small countries" come from?  From defending Kuwait in Iraqi Shield?  Or South Korea in the Korean War?  Or Britain in WWII?  Or the long financial support of Israel?  Sounds like we are perfectly willing to support small countries.  Sometimes we fight smaller countries, by often they have perfectly sizable and competent armies despite the geographic disparity, so I'd like to think it's fair.

 

the bullying smaller countries is from the cold war era where the US threatened any country that showed signs of communism. US support is not free at all, its mostly profiteering, or in the cold war anti communist. During the pre WW2 era the US didnt believe any country has teh right to self management, in fact the reason communism and democracy tension was so high was the US giving money and aid to the white army during the russian revolution, and when the communists won and found that out they had a few ruffled feathers.

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Yeah screw that guy really.

 

Three men - Alexei Ananenko, Valeri Bezpalov, Boris Baranov,  knowing they would be exposed to a lethal dose of radiation, volunteered to put on diving suits in order to swim underneath the reactor at Chernobyl and drain the bubble pool to prevent a catastrophic explosion (worse than what had already occurred).  They succeeded then later died from radiation sickness.

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Oh, and where's the argument we "bully small countries" come from?  From defending Kuwait in Iraqi Shield?  Or South Korea in the Korean War?  Or Britain in WWII?  Or the long financial support of Israel?  Sounds like we are perfectly willing to support small countries.  Sometimes we fight smaller countries, by often they have perfectly sizable and competent armies despite the geographic disparity, so I'd like to think it's fair.

 

the bullying smaller countries is from the cold war era where the US threatened any country that showed signs of communism. US support is not free at all, its mostly profiteering, or in the cold war anti communist. During the pre WW2 era the US didnt believe any country has teh right to self management, in fact the reason communism and democracy tension was so high was the US giving money and aid to the white army during the russian revolution, and when the communists won and found that out they had a few ruffled feathers.

 

Well, I would respond to this in the following ways ...

 

First, no one thinks every country has an absolute right to self-manage.  Two examples, 1) almost the entire UN embargoed South Africa during Apartheid, and no one at the time was saying "South Africa has a right to govern itself, we can't interfere and impose our values on them."  2) More recently, in 1990s after the first conflict in the Persian Gulf the United Nations laid all kinds of rules and restrictions on Iraq: including not allowing the Iraqi army to fly in certain zones, forcing them to give access to foreign weapons inspectors, etc. and leveling a threat of embargo and armed invasion should Iraq refuse to cooperate.  Few people felt that Iraq's right to self-government without interference was a paramount concern. 

 

At what point a country's loses its right to self govern, and what the response of other countries should be, is a fair and long debate. 

 

Second, the majority of the U.S. "bullying" was economic during the cold war, i.e. we won't trade with you or give you foreign aid if you embrace communism.  That happened a number of times.  However, I contend that this isn't bullying per se because the U.S. has no pre-existing duty to trade or give foreign aid to anyone, and therefore should be free to withdraw that support as it sees fit.  Or in other words, if I have a friend I routinely give 500 bucks a month to (and he doesn't work for earn, I'm just willing to do so) and then one day he starts doing drugs, I think I have the right to say "if you do that I'm not going to keep sending you that money."  It may mean he can't do something he wants to do and keep my money, so in a way I'm controlling him, but "bullying" because I won't give him money to support him in a self-destructive habit?  I don't think so.

 

Now, whether or not Communism is immoral/destructive can be and has been debated.  However, what is less debatable is that the majority of America believed it to be immoral and destructive during the cold war.  Therefore, conditioning money and trade on your acceptance/rejection of Communism would logically follow. 

 

Regardless, I intended to respond to one post earlier not hijack the thread.  So if you'd like to talk more about these things I'd be fine with it, but I don't think this is the best place for a prolonged discussion.  Perhaps we could start a new thread somewhere?

 

As for heroes from our time, I think I'd nominate Buck O'Neil.  That man just impresses me to no end, he played ball in the Negro Leagues and experienced terrible discrimination, but to this day expresses nothing but gratitude for the things he could do and an attitude of moving forward.  You never here him once complain, in any interview, about past wrongs that anyone could probably bring up quite justly.  The man refuses to hate or be bitter, when he has every right do both, and instead he talks about all of the good things he's had in life and works hard to bring about positive changes in poor communities of any race.  A definite Hero, and a model person.

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 I think people need to stop debating how 'big' a nation is as it is all relative to time periods, political alliances, populations, wealth, raw materials, technology, religion (too many issues to list). My earlier post of outlining the fundamental criteria needs refining I think. So lets see;

 

1. They have to have changed the world in an unbelievable way so that other important events developed from it, (I know this is a bad example as people have said Hitler shouldnt be a HotH but) Hitler gaining power in Germany to start WW2 which subsequently leads to the space race.

 

 The other important events developed from it is the key point here, if a nation has been through a serious political or social change which has had a few people key to that change then they are having an effect of the future of that nation.

 From there on (within reasonable extensions), if that nation, organisation or idea is critical to some world changing event then the people key to the development of this nation, organisation or idea can be considered to have created an event where other important events have developed from it.

 

 So if we change this criterion to;

1. They have to have had a key role in some social, political, humanitarian, technological, cultural or economical development that has directly or indirectly (see above for clarification on indirectly) had an effect on the WORLD.

 

I hope this is clear as it was quite difficult to get my own head around my thoughts at the time. For people such as Chesty Puller you could argue that they had an effect on social aspects as they were extensively exposed to nations by the media to improve morale at 'home', however it is going to be difficult to show that he had an effect on the world (which is a shame cos he is so damn cool).

 

My only regret is that we are trying to choose a handfull of men and women to fulfill HotH status when there are so many possible candidates from just a 10 year period of 20th century history let alone 10 centuries of human life where over 20 billion people have inhabited the earth.

So we are looking for the very best people, no compromises!!

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im just going to ignore the attacking of ideas here. Here are my two nominies for HotH: Albert Einstein and Nikola Tesla.

 

Einstein- wether we love him or hate him for some of his works, did revolutionize the world with some of the things he did. Tesla- he was the father of the second industrial revolution- this is only one of the reasons why he gets my nod.

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@Nobs: When the argument doesn't go your way, argue about something else. And when frustrated, insult someone else. Never, ever clarify. Or apologize. Just make stuff up and throw it around, not unlike Kurt Cobain.

 

I agree about Castro, Durinax, but wouldn't Che Guevara be a better choice? Also, why Elizabeth I is Egwene reborn here.

 

Wait, what? The picture wasn't intended to be an instruction to your or anyone else, just something I found that I thought related to the topic of suicide...maybe even break up the heavy mood. I found it shortly after I read your comment about "defending suicide" and thought I'd share it. I didn't mean to put your back up even further. This thread is apparently serious business.

 

 

 

Che Guevara? If just being an epic failure at everything but intimidation and murder is a qualifier for Hero of the Horn, then I'd say he's a front-runner. Otherwise, let's just leave the "social activist extraordinaire" in his grave. Terrible.

 

 

Edit: Enough with the personal attacks.

 

Anyone wanna hold hands and sing with me?

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As for heroes from our time, I think I'd nominate Buck O'Neil.  That man just impresses me to no end, he played ball in the Negro Leagues and experienced terrible discrimination, but to this day expresses nothing but gratitude for the things he could do and an attitude of moving forward.  You never here him once complain, in any interview, about past wrongs that anyone could probably bring up quite justly.  The man refuses to hate or be bitter, when he has every right do both, and instead he talks about all of the good things he's had in life and works hard to bring about positive changes in poor communities of any race.  A definite Hero, and a model person.

 

Seems like a good guy, but he didnt really affect the world or even his nation at all, did he?

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Hannibal Barca needs to be on the list, militarily, the man is probably the greatest tactician of all time.

 

Jesus Christ definately (though hes more of a Dragon figure)

 

Archillesn (Even setting aside the myth on this guy, records from that age show he was a powerful fighter)

 

Charlemagne

 

Frederick Barbossa

 

Robin Hood (if he existed, which he may have done)

 

Simpson of Simpson and his donkey (the donkey is Bela reborn)

 

Gandhi and Mandela I'm not to sure about. In the Fight between Light and Shadow, I doubt talking or protesting will sway the Shadow that much.

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Erich von Manstein - Greatest strategic mind of the 20th century. Nothing short of a miracle what he all managed to achieve. Pretty much stole the entire show, even though his side lost the war historians generally consider him to have been the most cunning strategist.

 

 

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Robin Hood (if he existed, which he may have done)

 

Actually, he'd be a terrible choice for a hero. If he existed, he would likely have been an incredibly evil and nasty man, and likely never gave to the poor. Him being such a hero is little more than a myth.

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Glen Beck is a hero of the horn apparently.

 

Oh my god no..

 

I think if anyone in our world has earned a place as a HoH its the Dalai Lama

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Bryan Budd.

 

bog standard Para - gave his life to save his comrades that were under fire from a taliban stronghold.

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He actually stopped winning when he finally overplayed the political game by invading Poland, provoking a Declaration of War by England and France.  Then after his armies, in spite of his blundering, secured France and the Low Countries for him, he sealed his own and Germany's fate by turning his back on England and invading Russia.  It was all downhill from there and every subsequent decision he made only made things worse.

 

Hitler was a disaster on every level.

 

Ill not argue in defence of him. I understand that prejudice distorts the image of people, and nothing can sway otherwise.

 

Remember that most of the films and media on WW2 is created by Jews. Now I have nothing against them, but do you really expect them to write an accurate history? Its like expecting a woman whos child was murdered write the history of the murderer accurately. Its not going to happen. You would expect nothing less, nor can u grudge them the fact, but it doesnt make it accurate.

 

Anyway, Ill say no more. I dont care to argue for a monster, I just think the facts should be presented how they are, not twisted by prejudice.

 

You know what?  Your idiocy on the subject of Jews is getting old.

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I think if anyone in our world has earned a place as a HoH its the Dalai Lama

 

not meaning this question in the rudeness it likely sounds, but, what has the dalai lama done to change the world? sure he might have done something that i dont know about, but he cant be a hero just since hes the dalai lama.

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Davy Crockett- Frontiersman, soldier, Congressman from Tennessee, died defending the Alamo. This guy's life was almost unbelievable. They were still writing songs, plays, books and movies about the man more then a century after his death. His exploits were legendary. He was not only a legend in his own time, but as recently as eight years ago he was still being portrayed in movies. Check it out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett

 

What really qualifies someone as a HotH? They have to be a legendary figure that has had stories told about them and that almost everyone has heard of. They don't necessarily have to have changed the world. Birgitte and Gaidal weren't world conquering heroes, they were just amazing adventurers with legendary exploits. With that in mind you'd have a hard time finding someone who fits the bill better then the "King of the Wild Frontier." Who else can you think of that supposedly killed a bear at the age of three?

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few points

 

Robin Hood :

the way i percieve him he was a Sexon Rebel/ Local hero against the Norman rule, and considering that probably most of his theft been Tax money -> he probably did give it back or invested it in helping the local FOLLOWERS who gave him hiding places/information/ recruits...

 

about today HotH:

i disagrea with some of the more popular choises

HotH is NOT the pattern fix it tool , that is what Ta'vern is for !

HotH are ppl who earn a reward for beeing champion of good and due to expetional courage/bravery/dids

 

i dont c Ghandy as HotH , as a Ta'vern -> of course , as a GRAT person no argue !!!, but i do believe that the HotH are tied to military/war/fighting that why i dont c Ghandy as one.

 

the way i c it HotH should fulfill few requierment:

 

motive:

----------

HotH should had a good/noble motive not just beeing a great warrior but a warrior for a couse

Hewking: his inital couse was to stop a False Dragon Tyrant who could channel, he didnt went out to build an empire but to unite ppl against a great threat, and by the evidence WoT give us his ruling was fair and he was LOVED by the ppl he ruled.

Jerom (i think that the name) : greatest blademaster in history, but he never mentioned (to my recall) as HotH -> skill/glory/reputation without couse -> not enough

 

Ability /achivment

------------------------

HotH his someone who either reached a certain height or failed in a gloryfull way to do it.

glorfull failing examples:

* Roland last battle when he fall

* Spartacus death scene (the "i'm spartacus" scene)

* Leonidas 300 fight (btw a great HotH candidate that ppl forgot :) )

 

Courage/bravery under fire /threat/risk

---------------------------------------------------

that why i dont c Ghandy as HotH nor Mandale, the risk factor wasnt that high

imo jail time is not equal to death

Florence Nithingail is a good candidate (she healed in war zones)

Louy Faster who tested his rabis (sp?) cure on himself risking his life and was a war zone healer.

Martin Luther King (he know he was risking death by racists)

 

Sara Perkinns and Mother Tereza i'm not sure how much danger then been in, not tsking away from their deeds but HotH is about facing Death and staring him down (imo atleast)

 

Reknown/Fame

------------------------

HotH reached such fame it follow them trough time

that why a great General like Yigal Alon not qualify (to my sorrow) but Fatton do.

if 5/10 dont know your candidate -> he dont qualify !

 

(sorry for the long post and if i misspelled a name or 2 feel free to note it and i will edit it correctly)

Edited by elric

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about today HotH:

i disagrea with some of the more popular choises

HotH is NOT the pattern fix it tool , that is what Ta'vern is for !

HotH are ppl who earn a reward for beeing champion of good and due to expetional courage/bravery/dids

 

Although Hawkwing was the greatest Ta'Veren known to exist, until Rand.

 

Abraham Lincoln is a very dragon-soul-like individual... Born in the backwoods of Kentucky. Mother died at a very young age.. Educated himself of his own will and determination. And eventually led the greatest civilization on Earth at the very moment it was about to destroy itself. He brought together all different points of view and renewed the spirit and promise of America.. Look at where this country has come since that decisive moment in time. If this country splits in 1865 for all time, what would this world be like today??

 

And finally, tragically, the pattern claims his life at the very crowning of his achievement.. If any human was ever born at the right place and the right time and for a specific purpose.. that person was Lincoln. Coming out of obscurity to champion a revolution of human diginity.

Edited by mauifranko78

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beeing HotH dont mean u not a Ta'vern :)))

beeing a Ta'vern dont mean u are HotH

 

u can be both but beeing one not mean beeing the other :)

 

and i agrea on Linkolen being prime candidate :)

 

Linkolen by the requierment i suggested:

 

Motive:

---------

keeping the country united

stopping slavery

 

Achivment:

----------------

the last HONEST POLITICIAN the world had seen :)) (honest Abe)

save his country -> kept it united

stopped slavery

 

Courage:

---------------

fought several Duels to the death (that area version of candidate debate :) )

lead a war

embark a very dengerous path he know will create enemies who will try to kill him.

 

Fame

--------------

i douth there many who dont know about Linkolen to some degrea.

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