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HeWhoComesWithTheTakeout

An Alternative View of the Propecy of the Dragon's Death at Shayol Ghul

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************Spoiler Warning************

 

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I just finished reading TGS and I was struck by a revelation when I was reading Rands confrontation with Tam and his subsequent acceptance of his past sins as Lews Therin on top of Dragonmount. Tam sys to Rand " Rand I think you can survive this. I can't imagine that the Pattern won't give you some peace, considering the service you're doing for us all...Youay not be able to choose the duties you're given. But you can choose why you fulfill them." This got me thinking: what if the Prophecy that "the dragon's blood will be spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul..." may reference a more hopeful event? I then read the next chapter "Reading the Commentary" in which Min ponders the Prophecy that declares that "He shall hold a blade of Light and the three shall become one..." obviously Rand Avi and Elayne will link using Callandor to fight Shai'tan at TG; it must be them because min herself cannot channel but the other two can. Elayne is pregnant with Rand's children and probably will not have given birth before Tg if the pace of the books are maintained. I propose that Elayne will give birth to Rands children on the Slopes of Shayol Ghul therby fulfilling the Prophecy that "the Dragons blood will be spilled on the rocks of SG" Rands children are his "blood." Also just thought of another possible outcome due to Prophecy which states "the lion sword the dedicated spear and (metaphor for Min) on a boat. With who is dead yet lives..." mabye Rand does die at shayol ghul, but is reborn as one of elaynes children. This is my lesser theory and is purely speculation. My first is the one in hich I have more confidence. Tell mewhat you think about these ideas.

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Very clever. However I don't think that the Prophecy would use the word "Spilled" to describe the birth of a child. I interpreted it as Rand bleeding, but still alive. Although I like your idea; it is clever.

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Quick quibble with your second theory - I totally don't see Rand being reincarnated as one of Elayne's children. He'd be a child with memories of being intimate with his own mother. Creepy as heck.

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That's a very unique theory you got there, O'He-Who-Comes-with-the-Takeout!

But I'll still interpret that little phrase in the prophecy as Rand actually dying.

 

By and by.

What some may call creepy, I call kinky!  ;)

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I agree that Rand's blood doesn't have to mean his blood specifically. I'm not sure about Elayne giving birth on Shayol Ghul, although there might be a setup for it with a gollum-style dagger ter'angreal and a rush to save the day like the women in the series always try to do.

 

We see how loosely the blind man/beggar prophecy was fulfilled. His blood spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul could just mean the Aiel flood the mountain with their numbers in an attack. Either they die there and his "blood" his literally spilled (remnant of a remnant saved) or it's just a watery word like break, tide, flood. I can see it fulfilled by a PoV from some evil guy, "Suddenly the Aiel spilled out of the gateway.."

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************Spoiler Warning************
Firstly, don't bother with spoiler warnings. It's expected that people have read the series.

 

I then read the next chapter "Reading the Commentary" in which Min ponders the Prophecy that declares that "He shall hold a blade of Light and the three shall become one..." obviously Rand Avi and Elayne will link using Callandor to fight Shai'tan at TG; it must be them because min herself cannot channel but the other two can.
A little bit of a leap there - after all, lots of people can channel, it could be others besides Avi or Elayne (especially as pregnancy interferes with Elayne's ability to channel, coupled with the fact that it would be decidedly out of character for Rand to take his pregnant girlfriend into the middle of a fight with an evil god. Even I wouldn't do that. Probably).
Elayne is pregnant with Rand's children and probably will not have given birth by Tg if the pace of the books are maintained. I propose that Elayne will give birth to Rands children on the Slopes of Shayol Ghul therby fulfilling the Prophecy that "the Dragons blood will be spilled on the rocks of SG" Rands children are his "blood."
It is unlikely Elayne will have given birth by then, given the current pace, but if she does give birth at SG I'm not convinced that event would be all that hopeful - those babies would probably be very premature. You're not the first to propose this idea, but I'm not convinced. Also, "red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul", "black rock wet with blood". Those are prophecies that directly mention Rand's blood. I don't think the language of either supports kids being born. I can't see any alternative to Rand bleeding at present. Bleeding doesn't necessarily mean death, of course.
With who is dead yet lives..." mabye Rand does die at shayol ghul, but is reborn as one of elaynes children.
It's not every day we get a theory quite that creepy. Congratulations.

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At first I scanned your post, and thought you were making a very morbid claim about Rand sacrificing his newborn children at Shayol Ghul.

 

Glad I did a double take and read that again :)

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I really hope he does die.  Not because I dislike the character or anything, but because if after an entire series of buildup to how he's going to sacrifice his life to save the world, it would be kind of banal to then just have that be a misinterpretation and he goes on to live happily ever after.  The whole "willing martyr" theme has been central to the story and it would be a letdown to have them just dump that at the end.

 

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I really hope he does die.  Not because I dislike the character or anything, but because if after an entire series of buildup to how he's going to sacrifice his life to save the world, it would be kind of banal to then just have that be a misinterpretation and he goes on to live happily ever after.  The whole "willing martyr" theme has been central to the story and it would be a letdown to have them just dump that at the end.

 

 

I agree.  He needs to die.  But, he will live again... Just not any time too soon.  The Wheel will eventually spin him out to fight the same battles again.

 

That was what the epiphany during VoG was all about.  He realized just how insignificant his little life as Rand al'Thor was when compared to the bigger picture of him as the Dragon, always given a chance to make right again and again what he may not have gotten right the first few... hundred times.

 

To live he must die.  But not to live again as Rand al'Thor right away.  To keep being given the chance to re-live lives.  And the Wheel will continue, the Pattern will continue, and the DO will not prevail.

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His blood spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul could just mean the Aiel flood the mountain with their numbers in an attack.

 

I like this idea better than Elayne giving birth. Rand is Aiel, so they would be his "blood." I don't think that the word "spilled" would be used though. However it fits better than "spilled" being used to describe Elayne giving birth.

 

 

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His blood spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul could just mean the Aiel flood the mountain with their numbers in an attack.

 

I like this idea better than Elayne giving birth. Rand is Aiel, so they would be his "blood." I don't think that the word "spilled" would be used though. However it fits better than "spilled" being used to describe Elayne giving birth.

 

what is the wording for the prophecy the aiel had about the coming of the caracarn

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I've always believed that he wouldn't die but that his blood would be shed in some other manner. This is a great theory, never thought of it that way.

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************Spoiler Warning************
Firstly, don't bother with spoiler warnings. It's expected that people have read the series.

 

I then read the next chapter "Reading the Commentary" in which Min ponders the Prophecy that declares that "He shall hold a blade of Light and the three shall become one..." obviously Rand Avi and Elayne will link using Callandor to fight Shai'tan at TG; it must be them because min herself cannot channel but the other two can.
A little bit of a leap there - after all, lots of people can channel, it could be others besides Avi or Elayne (especially as pregnancy interferes with Elayne's ability to channel, coupled with the fact that it would be decidedly out of character for Rand to take his pregnant girlfriend into the middle of a fight with an evil god. Even I wouldn't do that. Probably).
Elayne is pregnant with Rand's children and probably will not have given birth by Tg if the pace of the books are maintained. I propose that Elayne will give birth to Rands children on the Slopes of Shayol Ghul therby fulfilling the Prophecy that "the Dragons blood will be spilled on the rocks of SG" Rands children are his "blood."
It is unlikely Elayne will have given birth by then, given the current pace, but if she does give birth at SG I'm not convinced that event would be all that hopeful -

those babies would probably be very premature. You're not the first to propose this idea, but I'm not convinced. Also, "red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul", "black rock wet with blood". Those are prophecies that directly mention Rand's blood. I don't think the language of either supports kids being born. I can't see any alternative to Rand bleeding at present. Bleeding doesn't necessarily mean death, of course.

With who isdead yet lives..." mabye Rand does die at shayol ghul, but is reborn as one of elaynes children.
It's not every day we get a theory quite thatcreepy. Congratulations

 

Haha I'm new so I just thought I'd go ahead and put up the warning just in case thanks for the advice. In regard to the three becoming one; it seems to me that Elayne avi and min will probably be with Rand at the last battle bc of the phrase "3 on a boat" so I figured since they are already there the two who can channel would complete the link with Rand and callandor. If you have any alternate ideas to who the 3 may be I'd be interested. I. Regard to elaynes pregnancy; min had a viewing which insured Elayne against death until

her children were born- i don't think that the books will e completed

without them being born either bc then Elayne will largely be safe

from harm unless the DO up an wrecks the Pattern. So they wouldn't be premature i don't think ( they could be born in an epilogue later though). Also I'm sure rands wounds will probably open too and it is likelythat he will die at the end of the novel; this theory was just a thought on a more feel-good ending haha. Especially in light of rands convo with his dad; seems to me Rand can really love again and I think that'd makes all the difference in his battle, bc he is now the antithesis of the dark ones hate. With this new outlook he has abaondoned his nihilism and it would be a bummer to see him die without having a chance to share it with others and do good. Oh and that creepy theory was just said in passing; deinitlwy don't think about it too much haha. No wu Rand could be his own kid, first of all bc the child already has an individual soul; it's not an empty vessel. On another note I think if Rand died and was later reincarnated would he remember the lessons he learned as Rand; most ppl forget previous life when reborn so it would also suck that he would have to relearn how to love and care yet again after all his scrifice.

Jmo.

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Hmm... alternatively the "three become one" could be a reference to Rand pulling a Kronos and eating his children once they're born... especially since the Dark One wants to destroy time... yes, it's all coming together...

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The three become one might refer to Rand/Matt/Perrrin's Ta veren powers bending the pattern. After all, they've been referenced numerous times in the books as a tripod

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The three become one might refer to Rand/Matt/Perrrin's Ta veren powers bending the pattern. After all, they've been referenced numerous times in the books as a tripod

 

very true, and equally a possible and valid interpretation of that segment of Prophecy; the reasoning for my interpretation was that "three shall become one" is mentioned right next to "blade of light" which I think os callandor. Thus I figured that one woul deal directlywith the other since Rey are mentioned togther. Plus I am led to believe that callandor mist be used in TG and Therefore the two female channelers necessary to complete the link would be avi and Elayne bc of the bond they share and the trust Rand has for them. I couldn't see anyone short of moiraine or nynaeve conpleing the link instead of those two.

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Since Rand's children have already been conceived, it's rather unlikely that he would be reborn as one of them.. and yes that would be extreme creepiness!

 

Didn't someone suggest that Elayne's twins would be Calian the Chooser and Shivan the Hunter - the heralds of a new Age?

 

 

 

 

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Yeah exactly the main focus was supposed

to be on Elayne giving birth to rands kids at shayol ghul; the whole "him being one of her kids" was just a passin thought. I actually acknowledges what you said in my previous post; they are already concieved so they have their own souls and it's a one soul per body rule I think haha

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I was leaning toward the "3 to 1" refering to Rand/LTT/Moridan finally getting their head game strait.  The may have been disussed and disregarded previously but we are just speculating at this point.

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Going back to the idea that the Dragon's blood refers to the Aiel rather than actual blood.. We have a case of "blood" referring to something else at the very end of The Shadow Rising.

 

And when the blood was sprinkled on the ground where noth-

ing could grow, the Children of the Dragon did spring up, the

People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he

did call them forth from the wasted lands, and they did shake

the world with battle.

 

-From The Wheel of Time by Sulamein so Bhagad

Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun, the Fourth Age

 

Now that we know Rand is one with the land, his blood could then refer to rain in the prophecy, the same way it was used here. I just think if it literally meant Rand's old red blood then that's going against everything we see in the books where prophecies don't mean what they appear to say. I like the idea more that the Dragon's blood refers to the Aiel dying in a battle there, but you never know.

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************Spoiler Warning************
Firstly, don't bother with spoiler warnings. It's expected that people have read the series.

 

I then read the next chapter "Reading the Commentary" in which Min ponders the Prophecy that declares that "He shall hold a blade of Light and the three shall become one..." obviously Rand Avi and Elayne will link using Callandor to fight Shai'tan at TG; it must be them because min herself cannot channel but the other two can.
A little bit of a leap there - after all, lots of people can channel, it could be others besides Avi or Elayne (especially as pregnancy interferes with Elayne's ability to channel, coupled with the fact that it would be decidedly out of character for Rand to take his pregnant girlfriend into the middle of a fight with an evil god. Even I wouldn't do that. Probably).
Elayne is pregnant with Rand's children and probably will not have given birth by Tg if the pace of the books are maintained. I propose that Elayne will give birth to Rands children on the Slopes of Shayol Ghul therby fulfilling the Prophecy that "the Dragons blood will be spilled on the rocks of SG" Rands children are his "blood."
It is unlikely Elayne will have given birth by then, given the current pace, but if she does give birth at SG I'm not convinced that event would be all that hopeful - those babies would probably be very premature. You're not the first to propose this idea, but I'm not convinced. Also, "red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul", "black rock wet with blood". Those are prophecies that directly mention Rand's blood. I don't think the language of either supports kids being born. I can't see any alternative to Rand bleeding at present. Bleeding doesn't necessarily mean death, of course.
With who isdead yet lives..." mabye Rand does die at shayol ghul, but is reborn as one of elaynes children.
It's not every day we get a theory quite thatcreepy. Congratulations

 

Haha I'm new so I just thought I'd go ahead and put up the warning just in case thanks for the advice. In regard to the three becoming one; it seems to me that Elayne avi and min will probably be with Rand at the last battle bc of the phrase "3 on a boat" so I figured since they are already there the two who can channel would complete the link with Rand and callandor. If you have any alternate ideas to who the 3 may be I'd be interested.

The three on the boat are most likely to be Rand's three ladies, but there is nothing to indicate this boat will be at TG. There isn't really any indication of it being a naval encounter, after all. Most people think it will come afterwards, which makes more sense. So who will the three who are as one be? Could be anyone, really, too little to say. Rand, Cadsuane, Moiraine? Rand, Nynaeve, Alivia? Rand, Egwene, Fortuona? Pick three, any three.

Regard to Elayne's pregnancy; Min had a viewing which insured Elayne against death until her children were born - I don't think that the books will be completed without them being born either bc then Elayne will largely be safe from harm unless the DO up an wrecks the Pattern.
Well, KoD made abundantly clear that Elayne being alive to deliver her babies doesn't mean that everyone around her will be safe, so given her limited channeling capabilities at present it would not be a good idea to stick her in the middle of a battle. At present she wouldn't be a lot of help, and would just get those around her killed. And there's no reason why the babies should be born before series end.
Also I'm sure Rand's wounds will probably open too and it is likely that he will die at the end of the novel; this theory was just a thought on a more feel-good ending haha.
Yeah, but as I said, thinking it through it doesn't look all that feel good an ending to have Rand's premature children die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.
On another note I think if Rand died and was later reincarnated would he remember the lessons he learned as Rand; most ppl forget previous life when reborn so it would also suck that he would have to relearn how to love and care yet again after all his scrifice.
Well, when Rand dies and is reborn, of course he will have to start again from scratch, and will have to learn to love and care from scratch, same as anyone else. He might not forget along the way next time - the next Dragon might have an easier job of it, or not grow up as a farm boy and so be better prepared.

 

Didn't someone suggest that Elayne's twins would be Calian the Chooser and Shivan the Hunter - the heralds of a new Age?
That's been put forward a few times. Certainly nothing against it as yet.

 

I just think if it literally meant Rand's old red blood then that's going against everything we see in the books where prophecies don't mean what they appear to say.
But it being metaphorical or symbolic goes against all the times prophecies are fulfilled literally. Personally, I prefer literal interpretations. Bear in mind Mat did literally marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, Rand did come from Rhuidean at dawn, the Stone fell when the people of the Dragon came, when Callandor was taken. Some prophecies were most definitely fulfilled literally rather than symbolically, and the same could be true of this one. And I posted the wording of the relevant prophecies earlier, and I don't think it really supports a lot of Aiel, not without some twisting. The spilling of Rand's blood fits much better, at least to my mind.

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************Spoiler Warning************

 

.

The three on the boat are most likely to be Rand's three ladies, but there is nothing to indicate this boat will be at TG. There isn't really any indication of it being a naval encounter, after all. Most people think it will come afterwards, which makes more sense. So who will the three who are as one be? Could be anyone, really, too little to say. Rand, Cadsuane, Moiraine? Rand, Nynaeve, Alivia? Rand, Egwene, Fortuona? Pick three, any three.

Regard to Elayne's pregnancy; Min had a viewing which insured Elayne against death until her children.
Well, KoD made abundantly clear that Elayne being alive to deliver her babies doesn't mean that everyone around her will be safe, so given her limited channeling capabilities at present it would not be a good idea to stick her in the middle of a battle. At present she wouldn't be a lot of help, and would just get those around her killed. And there's no reason why the babies should be born before series end.
Yeah, but as I said, thinking it through it doesn't look all that feel good an ending to have Rand's premature children die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.
and will have to learn to love and care from scratch, same as anyone else. He might not forget along the way next time - the next Dragon might have an easier job of it, or not grow up as a farm boy and so be better prepared.

 

Oh I think that the boat will come after the LB as well, whether that be with a Rand who is alive or dead is the question. I think there is a distinct possibility that Alivia could be one o the three since she is supposed to help Rand die. I don't think cadsuane will be ivolved simply bc Rand may still have a hard time trusting her (I'm referring to who will complete the link) and I also think moirane could be a valid candidate also. ( side thought- anybody see symbolism of possible death with the boat prophecy? Charon was the boatman of the dead in Greek mythology; could look at prophecy also from the angle that three on a boat got the axe at TG...) if Elayne delivers her children before the last battle she will be able to channel fine; if not well Elayne is pretty stubborn so she may find a way to try to help Rand herself in the LB. Oh btw, you seem to think that I am insinuating that children are going to die and I think it would be a good ending? I never said that; I mean come on. If the kids were birthed at Shayol Ghul I would expect that it would come heralding the defeat o the dark one/ rands victory. Also coul be a symbol of hope if Rand dies and yet lives on through his children. No if they were to be born i am positive they would live. Futhermore, if Rand"gets it right" this time why does he he have to be reborn again and again?? Shouldn't he be granted some peace or some kind of eternity? Also hopefully this turn of the wheel signals the permanent defeat/imprisonment of DO. Also I think Rand was well equipped as a farmer to learn compassion/love ect... The two rivers ppl are honest frank and good. Greter position/ social standing has no bearing on a persons character. 

 

Didn't someone suggest that Elayne's twins would be Calian the Chooser and Shivan the Hunter - the heralds of a new Age?
That's been put forward a few times. Certainly nothing against it as yet.

 

I just think if it literally meant Rand's old red blood then that's going against everything we see in the books where prophecies don't mean what they appear to say.
But it being metaphorical or symbolic goes against all the times prophecies are fulfilled literally. Personally, I prefer literal interpretations. Bear in mind Mat did literally marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, Rand did come from Rhuidean at dawn, the Stone fell when the people of the Dragon came, when Callandor was taken. Some prophecies were most definitely fulfilled literally rather than symbolically, and the same could be true of this one. And I posted the wording of the relevant prophecies earlier, and I don't think it really supports a lot of Aiel, not without some twisting. The spilling of Rand's blood fits much better, at least to my mind.

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