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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Clearing the Rubble


Natrix
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While reading the going the tGS a second time I seem to notice something that I have missed in the past. How big of a part will Min play in the LB? Of course she plays a large role with her viewings and her close relationship with Rand, but it seems to me like she will have more than just the aforementioned.  I’m at work so I can’t look at a book in tGS where she mentions it and pick out the chapter (I know hard at work ) but Min is very determined to help Rand defeat the DO (obviously!). Herid Fel had what seemed to be important information for completing his task. I did manage to cook up this quote from LoC,

 

“Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble be-fore you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty”.

 

It seems as of late Rand has somewhat abandoned this information. I really hope that Min along with Rand revisit Fel’s theory and possibly more Min POV when trying to solve the mystery. I hope that somewhere in ToM that Min shares the theory with someone with more “scholarly” insight. Maybe this can be the “power” through knowledge that Min can possess and give to Rand to win the LB.

 

 

Anyways just something I had thought of. Couldn’t find it mentioned anywhere else in the forums. I’m new to the forums so feel free to tell me where this information is discussed if I did miss it. Thanks!

 

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That's funny.  I like Min more than most of the women in the series personally.

 

I do think this has been discussed before, and I don't think Rand has completely discarded that info.  I think his little convo with Lews Therin in TGS makes it clear that the "rubble" that needs to be cleared are the seals that Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions placed on the prison in the first place.  It went wrong, so the old sealing needs to be cleared away (ie. Rand and the good guys may actually need to break/destroy the remaining seals), and the new sealing needs to be re-thought and re-tried (only this time, hopefully with the proper buffer in place so that the OP doesn't touch the DO again and become tainted again).

 

My opinion is that both saidar and saidin need to be used together, with either the evil of Shadar Logoth or the True Power as some sort of "buffer" between them and the prison so that the OP won't be tainted.  This will fully re-seal the prison, rather than just temporarily seal it as Lews Therin et al. did before.  The discussion about whether or not the TP can/will be used to aid in re-sealing (or even completely healing) the bore is highly debated on these forums.

 

Back to your point though... I think Min and her studies of Herid Fel's books will be the one to help figure this all out in the end.

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Natrix, I think it's pretty obvious that Min is going to discover something in those books. That has been foreshadowed by her reading the books ever since WH's prologue, and her discussion with Cadsuane in TGS. Also, she DID tell Rand she believes the Seals have to be removed before TG, and he agreed.

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The mention of "Belief and order give strength."  Is interesting too.  I wonder if the Dark One isn't trying so intently to sow chaos because he feeds off it in some way - so the more chaotic and disbelieving the world is, the more of an upperhand the Dark One has.  So maybe stabilizing and uniting the world will actually be more important than people think, not just for mobilizing men for the Last Battle.

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The mention of "Belief and order give strength."  Is interesting too.  I wonder if the Dark One isn't trying so intently to sow chaos because he feeds off it in some way - so the more chaotic and disbelieving the world is, the more of an upperhand the Dark One has.  So maybe stabilizing and uniting the world will actually be more important than people think, not just for mobilizing men for the Last Battle.

 

I like that thought!  Min is a believer, and she'll convince everyone (hopefully) to believe and unite.

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I think the Egwene/Rand reunion at some time could play a large part in how they go about resealing the Bore. She will obviously grill Rand about his previous actions, but I think Rand's new found emotion could possibly allow him to not anger and see reason. Once they got all the other business about Asha'man/Aes Sedai bonding and their fealty to the Dragon they can get down to business. Min will most likely be with Rand when they meet and give insight on what actions to take. I could see Egwene sending a group lead by herself with Rand and his group to Shayol Ghul once a plan of action is made.

 

At the same time I could also see Rand doing the typical Rand thing and just flying by the seat of his pants when the time comes  ;)

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Agree that Rand and Min haven't abandoned Fel's note. It has already helped, and Min continues to learn more. She's already gained more insight than many AS, at tGS showed with Cadsuane agreeing with her about Callandor.

 

FWIW, Min is one of my favorite female characters (Mo, Nynaeve).

 

I love the "belief and order give strength" quote, and I'm a firm believer the DO's true game is not one of all out conquest, or at least that he's playing an equally (or more) important game to try to turn Rand, or get him to do his bidding.

 

He almost won at the end of tGS w/out firing a shot (militarily speaking).

 

Though Rand and the Tower AS seem to be safe, for now. The DO's minions still infest the Black Tower, and other levers of power.

 

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I wonder if the Sharom had been as significant to non channeling people during the AoL, as it probably was to the AS or science in general.  Just the first thing that came to my mind when I first read that bit about rubble.  Not that I think it literally needs to be rebuilt but it seems likely to me it represented essentially the pinnacle of human achievement, even if only symbolically.  To one day see it just blasted to pieces must've been pretty demoralizing and the DO has just slowly been filling the void it vacated.  To the point he's made it impossible thus far to match the scale of that kind of achievement.

 

Perhaps the Choden Kal seemed to be close however they're basically one dimensional --  power only.

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I forget where I read this, but it was suggested that the pattern might heal itself if given the chance. The artificial seal, rather than sealing away the DO, is instead preventing the pattern from closing the bore itself. Any seal made by the OP might by its very nature be insufficient.

 

 

There is subtle evidence of this in the books, and in "The World of ..." For instance, it was hinted by Fel that the bore had been drilled many many times as the Wheel turns. In "The World of..." the location of the bore's drilling was described as "a thinner point in the pattern." Thin because of a previous drilling that had healed maybe? Of course even RJ said to be careful of info in "The World of..." it's still an interesting idea to ponder.

 

 

Now on the quote "Belief and order give strength." It's hard to tell if the existence of chaos is actually exacerbating the DO's touch on the world (spoilage, etc) because chaos is as of now EVERYWHERE. We have no control group, no point of reference. However, it will be interesting to see if things get better in the White Tower with Egwene now in firm control and nearly every Aes Sedai supporting her. Things to look for: rodents, failure of Saidar, spoilage, etc. If these things improve, then I think the case could be made with near certainty that "order versus chaos" in the world has an impact on the DO's power.

 

Also Rand's sudden emotional realizations might play into this as well, but it takes more than one "aha!" moment to revert a condition like his, I would think. We'll see what happens there.

 

The changes will no doubt be very subtle at the beginning, so when the next book comes out I'll be sure to take careful notes.

 

 

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Yes indeed.. why is the Pattern thinner there, and what might 'thinner' mean, exactly?

 

That Rand's DM epiphany is only the beginning of his journey back to sanity is neatly illustrated, I think, by the fact that the break in the clouds that accompanied it is tiny as yet.

 

 

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That's what's gonna make ToM so interesting- among other things- seeing how different Rand actually is once he's stopped laughing/crying/freezing his butt off on DM.

Also, I think Min will talk her theories out with Moiraine, who will cry out, "Eureka! I knew there was something important in Adeleas & Vandene's cottage super-library just before that nasty Draghkar nearly swept me off my feet."

I've not cracked, in that scene Moiraine was thinking how something she'd read had tickled something in the back of her mind, no special reason to think this'd be it, but it's as good as anything else, and I love seeing loose ends wrapped up.

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