Mazrim Thaim and Ishamel

[Graf Ashaman]

In the books through the series RJ often puts little token out that summarize up to a big picture. I am only thinking loud now: In LoC RJ writes on page 305 that Mazrim Taim calls the Aiel "so called Aiel". And also in "The crown of swords" Alviarin states that Ishamel killed her predecessor. We also know that Ishamel was not really trapped from various statements.

 

Now summing that all up, I wonder if the 13 forsaken LTT trapped with the sealing of the bore were not really all Chosen ones!? What if Ishamel was completly free?

[RobertAlexWillis]

It seems clear from multiple POVs and comments that Ishamael was partially trapped, released more fully on 40 year cycles and almost completely every thousand years (leading to the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years). I imagine that Mazrim Taim has had the "benefit" of an education at the hands of the Forsaken, probably Ishamael/Moridin himself (Taim was freed by the Black Ajah, under a plan hatched before Ishamael's death in The Dragon Reborn, at which time Ishamael was in personal control of the Black Ajah) which would lead to his knowledge of various weaves unknown in this Age, customs/info/attitudes from the Age of Legends, etc. The fact that he is a very competent channeler indicates that he got training SOMEwhere. Rand has a competent channeler stuck in his head, and he still had to find a teacher to really learn.

[keith_rogers_irl]

I agree with RobertAlexWillis, It's now known that Mordin/Ishy has been Involved on many of the tragedies in the past 3000 years, the trolloc wars, Even the death of Hawking. He was only partially trapped... the only thing I can't figure out is seeing as he was partially trapped, he should have aged, Aignor and Bethy were fully trapped near the surface yet they appeared to be old ragged men whrn they broke free... Anyone care to shed some light on this for me ^___^

[Guest cwestervelt]

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

Week 14 Question: If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

 

Aginor and Balthamel were not trapped as deeply as the others and were semi-concious the entire time.

 

As to Ishamael, he definitely "aged" over the 3000 years since the Breaking. Just not in the normal sense of the word. Take the description of him when he cleared Lews Therin Telamon's insanity in the prologue to Eye of the World. At that time, he was quite a fine speciman of humanity. By the time he Rand shows up, he has flames where his eyes and mouth were. The transformation, caused by using the True Power during his times of Freedom, was part of his "aging" process. He was not free enough to show much normal physical aging, but he still showed the marks of time.