Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

A clue to Taim


Lacanos
 Share

Recommended Posts

Apologies, I'm sure there are many, many threads in various places on this topic, however I could not find an up-to-date one.

I'm currently mid re-read, on book 6, and I stumbled across an idea that I'd never noticed before (although I'm sure plenty of other people have and I'm thick).

 

The quote!

Just after Taim has "rescued" Rand from the Grey Man, they're talking.

"That man had to come from Sammael."

"Perhaps," Taim said shortly, glancing at the Grey Man. "I would give a great deal to be sure." That had the ring of simple truth.

 

Why did this quote get me so excited?

When I got to thinking about it, this is irrefutable proof of something we already knew - Taim is right at the top of the Dark hierarchy. However, it's also evidence of something more.

 

Earlier in the book, Graendal is discussing with Sammael what happened at a meeting of the forsaken. It's quite clear that at this meeting, there were 4 present - Graendal, Semirhage, Mesaana and Demandred, there's several quotes that prove this (I'll provide one - 'He had never been a trusting man, and was less so since hearing bits of what had happened between Demandred and the three women'). As I'm sure most of you can remember, it is made clear at this meeting that they are only to attack al'Thor and attempt to kill him in defence of their own lives.

 

So what I believe this quote to show is that Taim is aware of this command. He knows that they are only to move to kill Rand in defence of themselves - hence he's so keen to discover whether Sammael sent the Grey Man. [This neatly quashes the idea that he sent it himself].

 

This would therefore seem to point to Demandred, as the only other man who knew of this command, as being Taim. We know that's untrue. Therefore, I believe this lends credence to the view of Taim as Demandred's proxy, although I'm interested in other opinions.

 

Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 292
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Apologies, I'm sure there are many, many threads in various places on this topic, however I could not find an up-to-date one.

I'm currently mid re-read, on book 6, and I stumbled across an idea that I'd never noticed before (although I'm sure plenty of other people have and I'm thick).

 

The quote!

Just after Taim has "rescued" Rand from the Grey Man, they're talking.

"That man had to come from Sammael."

"Perhaps," Taim said shortly, glancing at the Grey Man. "I would give a great deal to be sure." That had the ring of simple truth.

 

Why did this quote get me so excited?

When I got to thinking about it, this is irrefutable proof of something we already knew - Taim is right at the top of the Dark hierarchy. However, it's also evidence of something more.

 

Earlier in the book, Graendal is discussing with Sammael what happened at a meeting of the forsaken. It's quite clear that at this meeting, there were 4 present - Graendal, Semirhage, Mesaana and Demandred, there's several quotes that prove this (I'll provide one - 'He had never been a trusting man, and was less so since hearing bits of what had happened between Demandred and the three women'). As I'm sure most of you can remember, it is made clear at this meeting that they are only to attack al'Thor and attempt to kill him in defence of their own lives.

 

So what I believe this quote to show is that Taim is aware of this command. He knows that they are only to move to kill Rand in defence of themselves - hence he's so keen to discover whether Sammael sent the Grey Man. [This neatly quashes the idea that he sent it himself].

 

This would therefore seem to point to Demandred, as the only other man who knew of this command, as being Taim. We know that's untrue. Therefore, I believe this lends credence to the view of Taim as Demandred's proxy, although I'm interested in other opinions.

 

Thanks!

 

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

 

THE TURTLE MOVES!!!

 

 

quick, hide! i hear the mob coming!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

 

THE TURTLE MOVES!!!

 

 

quick, hide! i hear the mob coming!

 

Loving the TP reference :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This would therefore seem to point to Demandred, as the only other man who knew of this command, as being Taim. We know that's untrue. Therefore, I believe this lends credence to the view of Taim as Demandred's proxy, although I'm interested in other opinions.

 

 

Not neccesarily, If Taim was the proxy of any of the Chosen and given the heads-up that Rand was not to be killed, he would be rather perturbed that someone had sent a gray man against Rand. It would even fit if right before he appeared he had been informed by his handler that a gray man was going to attack Rand and that he should stop him. In either case, he would be weary of conflicting goals among the Chosen (all of which would be over him in the  pecking order) as endangering him and his own goals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This would therefore seem to point to Demandred, as the only other man who knew of this command, as being Taim. We know that's untrue. Therefore, I believe this lends credence to the view of Taim as Demandred's proxy, although I'm interested in other opinions.

 

 

Not neccesarily, If Taim was the proxy of any of the Chosen and given the heads-up that Rand was not to be killed, he would be rather perturbed that someone had sent a gray man against Rand. It would even fit if right before he appeared he had been informed by his handler that a gray man was going to attack Rand and that he should stop him. In either case, he would be weary of conflicting goals among the Chosen (all of which would be over him in the  pecking order) as endangering him and his own goals.

At idea 1: the only male chosen confirmed alive at this point are Sammael and Demandred, therefore it is conceivable that he must be Demandred's proxy.

Idea 2: Him being informed by his handler in advance sure, but that would still point to him being D's proxy.

Remember, it's highly unlikely he's aligned with any of the female chosen as 1) they're all up to other, random stuff and as such are accounted for, and 2) they can't teach him to channel etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if this was the only bit of evidence pointing to Demandred being Taim's boss, then its ambivalence might be a little more relevant.  But it isn't.  Yeah, there's indication lately that Taim is Moridin's man, and Taim might well have been trained by Ishamael in the early days, but Moridin is Nae'blis, so it's hardly necessary for Moridin to usurp Demandred's authority at the Black Tower.  Darkfriend Asha'man are known to take orders from all three, so Demandred's involvement is well-established.  Since Moridin hadn't yet appeared when the Black Tower was founded, it all makes sense.

 

None of that precludes Demandred from being involved in other things, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if this was the only bit of evidence pointing to Demandred being Taim's boss, then its ambivalence might be a little more relevant.  But it isn't.  Yeah, there's indication lately that Taim is Moridin's man, and Taim might well have been trained by Ishamael in the early days, but Moridin is Nae'blis, so it's hardly necessary for Moridin to usurp Demandred's authority at the Black Tower.  Darkfriend Asha'man are known to take orders from all three, so Demandred's involvement is well-established.  Since Moridin hadn't yet appeared when the Black Tower was founded, it all makes sense.

 

None of that precludes Demandred from being involved in other things, of course.

 

What evidence is there for T being M's proxy? PM if you would, because I don't want the thread to devolve in that way

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

This would therefore seem to point to Demandred, as the only other man who knew of this command, as being Taim. We know that's untrue. Therefore, I believe this lends credence to the view of Taim as Demandred's proxy, although I'm interested in other opinions.

 

 

 

Or, it is simply pointing towards Taims nature as one very ambitious SOAB. If he can figure out what Sammael is up to, he might be able to interfere with those plans, and use that to advance in the ranks, perhaps even be promoted to Chosen (which we have hints he eventually was).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What evidence is there for T being M's proxy? PM if you would, because I don't want the thread to devolve in that way

I doubt it will be much of a diversion.  The biggest evidence is the fact that Taim is a little obsessed with black and red, and the fact that he uses Be'lal's sigil.  And also the fact that Moridin is known to give orders to Darkfriend Asha'man.  But like I said, Moridin is Nae'blis, so there's nothing that's necessarily odd about the fact.  We know that both Moridin and Demandred are involved with the Black Tower, so it makes sense to think that it is Demandred's base of power, but that Moridin occasionally takes a hand in things because he is Nae'blis.  There's even an implication that the guards at Moridin's fortress are Asha'man, which still does not prelude Demandred being the main boss at the Black Tower.

 

As for the clues that Taim was trained by Ishamael...he had a fair bit of knowledge about the Power, and he also seemed to have a fair bit of influence from someone who was from the Age of Legends (this is what made people think Taim was Demandred).  Since Ishamael was out long before anyone else, there's a possibility that he could have been training Taim for years.  And then there was the seal.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've long had a theory that Taim will replace Moridin as Nae'blis.  Ishamael seems to have been questioning his philosophy of late (see his dream meeting with Rand in TGS).  I submit that the Moridin/Rand Merge Theory (or some derivative) will occur, and Taim will become the new Nae'blis.  I'm also pretty sure that he has been given access to the TP already.  It's the only way he could have transported the trollocs to the attack on the Manor.  Really, short of Moridin or Shaidar Haran doing it, there is no other logistical way for all those Shadowspawn to have gotten there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've long had a theory that Taim will replace Moridin as Nae'blis.  Ishamael seems to have been questioning his philosophy of late (see his dream meeting with Rand in TGS).  I submit that the Moridin/Rand Merge Theory (or some derivative) will occur, and Taim will become the new Nae'blis.  I'm also pretty sure that he has been given access to the TP already.  It's the only way he could have transported the trollocs to the attack on the Manor.  Really, short of Moridin or Shaidar Haran doing it, there is no other logistical way for all those Shadowspawn to have gotten there.

 

 

There's no evidence that trollocs can pass through a gateway made with the TP any more than through a normal one.

They went by the Ways, there's evidence of that in the same book - Moridin says when discussing who impersonated Sammael "they sent hundreds of thousands of trollocs and hundreds of myrdraal into the ways"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've long had a theory that Taim will replace Moridin as Nae'blis.  Ishamael seems to have been questioning his philosophy of late (see his dream meeting with Rand in TGS).  I submit that the Moridin/Rand Merge Theory (or some derivative) will occur, and Taim will become the new Nae'blis.  I'm also pretty sure that he has been given access to the TP already.  It's the only way he could have transported the trollocs to the attack on the Manor.  Really, short of Moridin or Shaidar Haran doing it, there is no other logistical way for all those Shadowspawn to have gotten there.

 

 

There's no evidence that trollocs can pass through a gateway made with the TP any more than through a normal one.

They went by the Ways, there's evidence of that in the same book - Moridin says when discussing who impersonated Sammael "they sent hundreds of thousands of trollocs and hundreds of myrdraal into the ways"

 

Moridin specifically says "thousands of Trollocs" and "a hundred Myrrdraal."

 

Shadowspawn can't go through gateways because they are constructs of some sort, right?  Constructs made with the TP? (I'm not sure about the specifics of this)

 

Might there be a difference between a gateways made with the One Power and a gateway made with the True Power?  Might a gateway made with the TP have a different effect (or NO effect) on a construct made with the TP?

 

I don't think it's likely, but what do you guys think about that?  I'm curious now.  Such a possibility could be a bit of a game-changer.

 

Anyway, there are lots of posts outlining possible links between Taim and Ishamael, and Taim and Demandred.  Whatever one believes, it is pretty apparent that Taim is a high up Darkfriend.  The idea that he is next in line for Nae'blis is a stretch, though.  The DO prefers channelers from the AoL to 3rd Agers.  Demandred would certainly be next in line if Moridin died (again).  D has the least number of failures under his belt at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At idea 1: the only male chosen confirmed alive at this point are Sammael and Demandred, therefore it is conceivable that he must be Demandred's proxy.

Idea 2: Him being informed by his handler in advance sure, but that would still point to him being D's proxy.

Remember, it's highly unlikely he's aligned with any of the female chosen as 1) they're all up to other, random stuff and as such are accounted for, and 2) they can't teach him to channel etc.

 

How about if Ishy was the one to train T, then because he is Na'blis and quite busy puts one or more of the female Choosen to oversee T. Plus, we have seen on several occasions that Darkfriends will follow the orders of any Chosen who shows up whether or not that Chosen is their "boss". So T would have followed the order to save Rand from the Grayman no matter what Chosen gave the order. The same goes for other Dark Ashaman. The Black Tower may be seen as a source of resources but not necessarily as a base of operations by the Chosen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

 

THE TURTLE MOVES!!!

 

 

quick, hide! i hear the mob coming!

 

Which mob is that? The one full of people who take a beloved author at their word and aren't a fan of people calling RJ a liar just because their theory was destroyed? That mob.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moridin.  Taim is really Moridin.  Full theory will be posted shortly in its own thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As'angar had been introduced in this book and ripe on taking his place in the black tower ranks. The grey man could have easily come from him as Dashiva seemed to always be trying to kill Rand, despite any orders to "let the lord of chaos rule". Though the two "reborn" forsaken don't appear in their subterfuge roles until later, they are introduced in book 6 pretty early so any actions by them early would have been all but done by an unknown entity, or person though to be dead.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologies, I'm sure there are many, many threads in various places on this topic, however I could not find an up-to-date one.

I'm currently mid re-read, on book 6, and I stumbled across an idea that I'd never noticed before (although I'm sure plenty of other people have and I'm thick).

 

The quote!

Just after Taim has "rescued" Rand from the Grey Man, they're talking.

"That man had to come from Sammael."

"Perhaps," Taim said shortly, glancing at the Grey Man. "I would give a great deal to be sure." That had the ring of simple truth.

 

Why did this quote get me so excited?

When I got to thinking about it, this is irrefutable proof of something we already knew - Taim is right at the top of the Dark hierarchy. However, it's also evidence of something more.

 

Earlier in the book, Graendal is discussing with Sammael what happened at a meeting of the forsaken. It's quite clear that at this meeting, there were 4 present - Graendal, Semirhage, Mesaana and Demandred, there's several quotes that prove this (I'll provide one - 'He had never been a trusting man, and was less so since hearing bits of what had happened between Demandred and the three women'). As I'm sure most of you can remember, it is made clear at this meeting that they are only to attack al'Thor and attempt to kill him in defence of their own lives.

 

So what I believe this quote to show is that Taim is aware of this command. He knows that they are only to move to kill Rand in defence of themselves - hence he's so keen to discover whether Sammael sent the Grey Man. [This neatly quashes the idea that he sent it himself].

 

This would therefore seem to point to Demandred, as the only other man who knew of this command, as being Taim. We know that's untrue. Therefore, I believe this lends credence to the view of Taim as Demandred's proxy, although I'm interested in other opinions.

 

Thanks!

 

SO GLAD you didn't end up saying 'THEREFOR TAIM IS DEMANDRED' because god knows too many people refuse to believe the author of the series when he says 'nope.'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

 

THE TURTLE MOVES!!!

 

 

quick, hide! i hear the mob coming!

 

Which mob is that? The one full of people who take a beloved author at their word and aren't a fan of people calling RJ a liar just because their theory was destroyed? That mob.

 

The ones* that don't believe RJ was human and therefore capable of deception, truth twisting, and little white lies?  Yes, that one.

 

Bring it! *hides behind the Impressive Bosom*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ones* that don't believe RJ was human and therefore capable of deception, truth twisting, and little white lies?  Yes, that one.

 

Bring it! *hides behind the Impressive Bosom*

 

There is a major difference to "deception, truth twisting, and lie white lies" and y giving a wrong answer when

specificly asked. Remember RJ used RAFO quite often when he did not want to reveal important secrets or get into certain topics. In fact RJ tended to telepgraph those instances when he was playing with a questioner, which did not take place in relation to Demadred and Taim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

 

THE TURTLE MOVES!!!

 

 

quick, hide! i hear the mob coming!

 

Which mob is that? The one full of people who take a beloved author at their word and aren't a fan of people calling RJ a liar just because their theory was destroyed? That mob.

 

The ones* that don't believe RJ was human and therefore capable of deception, truth twisting, and little white lies?  Yes, that one.

 

Bring it! *hides behind the Impressive Bosom*

 

I don't think you're talking about the right mob. Was RJ capable of deception? Of course. Would he out right lie to his readers? I say no. I guess it's up to you judge his integrity. Try and be objective and not let the fact that your pet theory was destroyed cloud your mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I was listening to Fires of Heaven today.  Rand says that Asmodean does not sweat and he said it was not a trick of the power.  And Asmodean clained that he did not know how to make a gateway. 

 

In Lord of Choas, Taim teaches Rand how not to feel the weather and has a blank look on his face when Rand shows him a gateway. 

 

I still think Asmodean is Taim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When did RJ say that Taim is not Demandred? Why all the parallels between the clothing, the lack of a smile, the same hatred of Rand? When Taim says "let the lord of chaos rule" to the AS in the black tower it has a ... feel of Demandred hearing it from the Dark One.

 

I'm confused.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When did RJ say that Taim is not Demandred? Why all the parallels between the clothing, the lack of a smile, the same hatred of Rand? When Taim says "let the lord of chaos rule" to the AS in the black tower it has a ... feel of Demandred hearing it from the Dark One.

 

I'm confused.

 

When he said that as of CoT we hadn't seen demandred's alter ego or disguise or whatever you want to call it, "onscreen" eliminating umm...Well just about anyone who we've seen in the books from being his disguise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really, really think Taim is Ishamael. The more I think about it the more it seems obvious. The clues to that, I think, are what people mistake for clues to Demandred; I dont think Taim was ever meant to be Demandred, always Ishamael/Moridin, and it is more important than we first realised. I think its the Big Unnoticed Thing, I need to do a writeup on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...