Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Werthead

TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT cover art, blurb and opening paragraph

Recommended Posts

Just out of curiosity...why would Trollocs and such have attacked the Seanchan?

 

 That is a good question.  :) 

 

 

If we start with the premise that Ishy was behind the Hawkwing first sending his army there as he said, why attack them?  They were sent for a reason...to return and wreak havoc.  Having trollocs attack does no good...

 

 Recall that I was speaking of the northern Seanchan mainland, in regards to the Blight & a future Trollocs, Shadowspawn attack.  Whether that actually occurs is up in the air, though I think it is a very good possibility at Imfaral in particular.  

 

 Why would the Shadow attack them on the Seanchan continental(s)?

 

 To regain control of Seanchan, for the Shadow, after Semirhage killed off the ruling House in Seandar? Supposedly there is no one in control of the Seanchan continent(s) politically now, according to Semirhage speaking to Suroth.  Sounds as if the making of a huge civil war are in process there now, on the southern mainland island of Seanchan around the capital.  However, we have not heard much specifically about the northern mainland island overall.  

 

 I'd imagine the Seanchan military is not exactly ideally prepared to defend against a Shadowspawn invasion out of the Blight now. Let alone an attack from a direction the Seanchan people do not expect; from an enemy they do not believe even exists.  

 

 The Seanchan military has fallen apart, and has divided into multiple warring factions in a huge continental sized civil war, according to Semirhage:

 

Source: Knife of Dreams book, Chapter Prologue "Embers Falling on Dry Grass" - Suroth pov with Semirhage in Ebou Dar, Altara

 

 "I see I didn't make myself clear. Radhanan is dead, and her daughters, and her sons, and half the Imperial Court, as well. There is no Imperial family except for Tuon. There is no Empire. Seandar is in the hands of rioters and looters, and so are a dozen other cities. At least fifty nobles are contending for the throne, with armies in the field. There is war from the Aldael Mountains to Salaking. Which is why you will be perfectly safe in disposing of Tuon and proclaiming yourself Empress. I've even arranged for a ship, which should arrive soon, to bring word of the disaster." She laughed again, and said something strange. "Let the lord of chaos rule."

 

 

 

 

let the Seanchan grow powerful so that they can serve the DOs bidding (if unknowingly) when the time comes.

 

 Wasn't that part of the plan for the Seanchan forces in the Westlands?  

 

 That said, I do not think we have seen the Shadow's grand plan details just yet.

 

Shaidar Haran was not happy to learn that Semirhage lost control of manipulating the Seanchan Empire's forces in the Westlands, and her charge Tuon/Fortuona among other things.  However, Shaidar Haran only called the Seanchan "valuable pawns", not one of more powerful, flexible pieces on a zara board:

 

  • Counselors
  • High Counselors
  • Spires
  • Shaidar Haran, a new piece on the board with unknown powers

 

Source: Gathering Storm book, Chapter 22 "The Last That Could Be Done" - Semirhage pov with Shaidar Haran in Arad Domon

 

"You took his hand and nearly his life. You have revealed yourself and have lost valuable pawns."

 

 I guess one could say Semirhage was set-up to die, for her multiple failures in the eyes of Shaidar Haran and Moridin (tGS). Besides the Shadow's other goals towards forcing Rand to use the True Power, to lose trust in Cadsuane et la.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 Hypothesis: It seems as if the Shadow prefers to create chaos in a given area generally first, then it later prefers to send in an attack.  Be it in Falme & the Almoth Plain, the Shadow used the Whitecloaks to create chaos first. Only then did the Seanchan Return enter Falme. In Amadicia, it was the threat from the Prophet's mobs in Ghealdan. Then Amadicia was invaded by Seanchan out of Tarabon.

 

 Amadicia was in a particular bad spot (WH,Ch.1), with territorial threats on all of its borders -- northern, southern, eastern, western -- just before it was invaded by the Seanchan Empire.

 

  • Northern = The Prophet's armed mobs, looting northern Amadicia (LoC,Ch.9).
  • Eastern = Salidar Aes Sedai village, many of the White Cloaks saw them as a threat.
  • Western = Seanchan Empire, however only Pedron Niall seem to understand this dangerous threat. Then Abdel Omerna assassinated Niall before Niall come spread the news of this threat openly.
  • Southern = The Guardian of the Southern Gate, to the Shadow Coast. Eerily quiet, just as the Blight has been for books and books.

 

   With the Shadow using Masema's mobs to create a large threat to Amadicia northern region, that would do two things.  Force the White Clocks to move more soldiers northward, thus weakening both the Southern & Western borders of armed soldiers.  That made things easier for the Seanchan Empire to invade.

 

It doesn't hurt the Shadow cause that the Seanchan Empire is relatively clueless about the dangers to Amadicia's southern border. A long time ago, what is now Amadicia included a good part of the Shadow Coast, then called the nation of Kharendor. Amadicia is only half the size of Kharendor roughly now, and its whole southern border is near a very long river.  One big open question remains though, 'How deep is that river's waters?'

 

 

 

 There are quotes across the series about the water depth of many rivers being low enough for Trollocs to be able to cross relatively easily.

 

 

One can look at the four Borderland nations a see a similar strategy by the Shadow, to misdirect their focus and weaken their defenses. See Joiya's confession to Egwene, Nynaeve in the Stone for those details (tSR,Ch.5), which Egwene does not want to believe, "No, she thought. Joiya is lying. I am sure she is.".  Shockingly Joiya told the general truth to Egwene, Nynaeve & Moiraine here. Joiya was correct about a misinformation campaign against the Dragon Reborn's reputation, about Mazrim Taim, and the Borderlanders seeking to crush Rand al'Thor before the Last Battle (in Far Madding in tGS).

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 Moving back the topic of the northern Seanchan mainland, next the Blight. If Semirhage observations are correctly, the city of Imfaral should be currently in the midst of a civil war for political & social control now.  Whatever control the Seekers have over Imfaral prisons & military complex there, should be weakened because the top Seanchan chain of command has been decapitated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of curiosity...why would Trollocs and such have attacked the Seanchan? 

 

If we start with the premise that Ishy was behind the Hawkwing first sending his army there as he said, why attack them?  They were sent for a reason...to return and wreak havoc.  Having trollocs attack does no good...let the Seanchan grow powerful so that they can serve the DOs bidding (if unknowingly) when the time comes.

 

If you're talking about the attack that happens in tGS, on General Tylee's soldiers, I think it's the result of Trollocs being unreliable.

 

I think we can say, with some certainty, that there were no Myrdraal with that group of Trollocs.  Tylee makes a full report of the ambush to Tuon, and she shows several of the heads of the beasts to prove her encounter.  She offers descriptions, and then speculates that they must be Trollocs, since the Seanchan would never have seen them.  She surely would have mentioned if they were led by eyeless creatures in black cloaks that moved like snakes.

 

We still don't really know who ordered the attack on Rand in KoD, but we know that there was a massive army of Trollocs on their way to Tear.  It's been a while since we've seen the Ways, and if what we know of them still holds true, the larger the group traveling within, the more likely that they would attract Machin Shin, and be completely consumed by it.  So that huge army of Trollocs would have broken up into smaller bands to travel the Ways.  Trollocs being unreliable, some of them might have stumbled the wrong direction and come out the wrong WayGate.

 

I think the band that hit the Seanchan was one such-a band of Trollocs that had wandered the Ways, come out in the wrong place, and attacked the first people they saw.  Moridin isn't sure just how many Trollocs went missing, so it's possible there's still tons of wandering bands that come out in the wrong places.  Those who come out in places controlled by Rand aren't such a big deal-almost all of the Gates are being watched, and he's put some Wards on them as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regards to the idea of an army of Trollocs attacking the Seanchan mainland, it is strategic idiocy, and no even halfway competent commander would go along with it. It divides your forces in the face of a superior opposition, opens a second front against a neutral party and does nothing to help you - it would only over-extend your forces. What you need is a concentration of force against your existing enemies. Seanchan has been removed from the game due to the civil war there, and at no cost to the Shadow. stripping forces from the Great Blight to attack Seanchan would involve losses of some of that army, with the only possible result being the loss of those forces - the Seanchan are killing each other already, faced with an external threat they are more likely to unite to deal with it, thus bringing the Empire out of chaos and putting it against the Shadow. Given the information we currently have, such a plan is utterly idiotic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question: We know the Tower of Ravens located in the Seanchan capital city is used as an imperial prison especially for members of the blood, but there is also a reference to the first marath damane shaking the Towers of Midnight. Are the Towers of Midnight also a prison? Can you tell us more about them? (Some of this question paraphrased)?

 

Jordan: There are thirteen towers of midnight. The Towers of Midnight are a fortress complex, and were, at the time this happened, Shandar wasn’t the capital, and the Towers of Midnight were the center of military might, or the forces that were beginning the consolidation before the conquest of Seanchan.

 

 

http://members.casema.nl/e.f.delaat/Dragon%20Con%20day%202.html

 

Very interesting... this quote from DragonCon in 2005, and the opening paragraph for ToM leads me to believe that maybe there could be at least a small portion of this new book having a scene from the Seanchan continent in it.

 

I seem to remember a quote from BS saying he picked Towers of Midnight because he thought it was poetic or some such wording, and always kind of thought that meant there'd be new Towers of Midnight, "in their new center of military might, with the forces that were beginning the consolidation before the conquest of Randland."

 

But starting off the winds in the original location puts a damper on that, unless it's just a teaser.

 

Edit: My bad not poetic:

As for that book . . . well, it's time for it to have a title. We've been calling it Shifting Winds up until this point, but that was never intended to be the final title. After a long round of conversations with Tor and Harriet, we settled on TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT as the title. There are various reasons for this, which I'll go into more once the book is out next year. I'm pleased, however, as this was the title I suggested. It's actually appropriate in an interesting way. Harriet was the one who came up with the name for the first of the three, and the second one gets the title I proposed. And so, we will (as I've been saying for a while) use Mr. Jordan's title for the final of the three, A MEMORY OF LIGHT.

 

13th book, 13 towers, perhaps a circle of 13+13 somewhere in this book? /insane theory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey was it ever confirmed who sent the trolloc attack on Rand. Also who sent them trollocs agaisnt Tylee? Killing Rand doesn't seem to fit with the shadows plans and the same goes with attacking the seanchan as they seem to be helping the shadow in distracting Rand. So could we have a possible renagade faction inside the shadow or is it part of some bigger plan or is it just Fain?

What has he been up to? Also it could be possible that he is the shadow/ghost/spectre from Perrins past. He did kill his family, he was also after him orginally and also he was close by Perrin in the crossroads of twillight - the darkhounds were after him- also it has always seemed that Perrin and Slayer where in for a showdown and Slayer is after Fain so this is how they could come into contact. Maybe Luc will meet Perrin again and explain he's after Fain or some such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As others have said, all Trollocs and Myrddraal in Seanchan were destroyed by the feuding Aes Sedai and the armies of golm, torm, raken etc they brought through the portal stones. Other Shadowspawn survived. I think RJ specifically mentioned Draghkar as surviving, but at a guess I'd say anything he didn't specifically rule out could still be in play, such as Darkhounds, Worms and Grey Men. In addition we know there are Darkfriends in Seanchan, potentially a lot of them.

 

However, it may be more germane to remember the comment (in LoC, IIRC) that whilst the Last Battle will come to touch every corner of the world, including Shara and Seanchan (and presumably eventually the Land of the Madmen and the Sea Folk home islands as well), its first and heaviest stroke will fall on the Westlands. So I doubt we will see a major Shadowspawn assault on Seanchan until after the Last Battle is unleashed on the Westlands in full force. In addition, the bloody civil war in Seanchan means that the Shadow can wait a while before unleashing war against Seanchan, as the Seanchan are doing a good enough job already of killing one another.

 

As for the ashendarei, it's interesting that Sweet painted EXACTLY the same weapon on the cover of the WHEEL OF TIME roleplaying game. See here for the comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We dont know how big the shadows army is though. Hearing that the Seanchan continent was wiped out before the west even realised the LB had begun would probably be something of a downer ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that Simhrage's coruption of the seanchan was the first blow by the shadow, thus starting the last battle. plus the shadow knew that tuon was meeting Rand since the COT. The DO maybe waiting on Lanfear to be relesed from the tower in order to continue his attacks on the westland and everywhere else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

As for the ashendarei, it's interesting that Sweet painted EXACTLY the same weapon on the cover of the WHEEL OF TIME roleplaying game. See here for the comparison.

 

When I first saw that ad a couple weeks ago, I thought they had recycled the entire painting. I didn't pull out my WOT RPG book to check though. But it looks to me like DKS recycled a previous sketch for this cover.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

As for the ashendarei, it's interesting that Sweet painted EXACTLY the same weapon on the cover of the WHEEL OF TIME roleplaying game. See here for the comparison.

 

When I first saw that ad a couple weeks ago, I thought they had recycled the entire painting. I didn't pull out my WOT RPG book to check though. But it looks to me like DKS recycled a previous sketch for this cover.

 

Just when I thought DKS couldn't sink any lower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually okay with it, if it means he could devote more time to the actual painting and end up with a better end product. Commercial illustration isn't the same as fine art and I'm not going to insist on an exacting standard of creativity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually okay with it, if it means he could devote more time to the actual painting and end up with a better end product. Commercial illustration isn't the same as fine art and I'm not going to insist on an exacting standard of creativity.

 

Only problem is that his very best work is still crappy work  :-\ Sorta anyways.... It'd be fun if for the last book they could have a fan-art contest. Lots of people doing awesome artwork out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regards to the idea of an army of Trollocs attacking the Seanchan mainland, it is strategic idiocy, and no even halfway competent commander would go along with it. It divides your forces in the face of a superior opposition, opens a second front against a neutral party and does nothing to help you - it would only over-extend your forces. What you need is a concentration of force against your existing enemies.

 

All good points  :)

 

  Except for the one point about the Seanchan being a superior opposition, as that is debatable considering how they're divided into fifty or so warring factions, according to Semirhage.

 

During the Trolloc Wars, we have hints that Shadowspawn were send all across the greater continent from Safer to Shara.  If Ishamael could break up the Ten Nations, and I believe successfully take-over control of greater Shara then; the Shadow should not be lacking Trollocs now in the present.  Moridin knows how to create a successful war plan, without any other Chosen to help him out.  Moridin is the one who wants strategic control of all the Trollocs in the Westlands (KoD). 

 

 

One great unknown, is how many Trollocs & other Shadowspawn does the Shadow have to use in its war plans? 

 

They may have enough Trollocs to pull off a full two continent invasion. If the USA could do that in WWII (Pacific War & Europe/North Africa War), its not a 'total strategic idiocy'.  Large sacrifices and choices have to be made though if the Shadow's war plan does includes a two-front war. 

 

 

  Unlike the in the Trolloc Wars, Moridin has Demandred to aid in the war plans in the Westlands. That should give more flexibly to the Shadow, than they had in the Trolloc Wars previously.

 

  Yet the Last Battle is not going to be like the Trolloc Wars, its going to be different. Many attacks are going to originate from additional un-thought of directions for many Westlanders, not only out the Borderlanders.

 

   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The British edition looks like a mockup of the TGS edition with a different colour and dfferent text.

This just seems like a place-holder for the trade. Perhaps even just a way to keep the pressure on Brandon to deliver the mss asap.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The British edition looks like a mockup of the TGS edition with a different colour and dfferent text.

This just seems like a place-holder for the trade. Perhaps even just a way to keep the pressure on Brandon to deliver the mss asap.

 

 

All UK covers look like that, which is why a lot of people prefer them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regards to the idea of an army of Trollocs attacking the Seanchan mainland, it is strategic idiocy, and no even halfway competent commander would go along with it. It divides your forces in the face of a superior opposition, opens a second front against a neutral party and does nothing to help you - it would only over-extend your forces. What you need is a concentration of force against your existing enemies. Seanchan has been removed from the game due to the civil war there, and at no cost to the Shadow. stripping forces from the Great Blight to attack Seanchan would involve losses of some of that army, with the only possible result being the loss of those forces - the Seanchan are killing each other already, faced with an external threat they are more likely to unite to deal with it, thus bringing the Empire out of chaos and putting it against the Shadow. Given the information we currently have, such a plan is utterly idiotic.

 

Agree 100%: that would be about as good a decision as Hitler's decision to attack the Soviet Union in WW2, but worse since Seanchan forces on that continent aren't even a threat right now. At least Hitler had good reason to worry about Stalin, given that they were opposite political extremes and Stalin's army was huge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additionally, shadowspawn attack the seanchan continent at the same time eventually people are going be, hey they're not human, lets kill them first and then we can get back to killing each other later.  So then you have a war on two fronts and we all know how well that worked out for Hitler.  I mean if you still had an advanced infrastructure and could mass produce shadowspawn then it would probably work but not in todays(WOT) world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additionally, shadowspawn attack the seanchan continent at the same time eventually people are going be, hey they're not human, lets kill them first and then we can get back to killing each other later.  So then you have a war on two fronts and we all know how well that worked out for Hitler.  I mean if you still had an advanced infrastructure and could mass produce shadowspawn then it would probably work but not in todays(WOT) world.

 

Funny how people remark on the difficulties of Germany fighting on two fronts while forgetting the US fought on two fronts during the same war with great success.  The difference is, of course, the US had some great allies while Germany was mostly on its own during the war in Europe.  The United Stats was fighting an extremely large scale naval campaign against the Japanese while it was engaged in multiple engagements against the Germans.

 

Not that this is particularly relevant-it's still folly for the Shadow to attack the Seanchan mainland, who are basically out of the fight, until they've secured vitory in the Westlands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The British edition looks like a mockup of the TGS edition with a different colour and dfferent text.

This just seems like a place-holder for the trade. Perhaps even just a way to keep the pressure on Brandon to deliver the mss asap.

 

 

All UK covers look like that, which is why a lot of people prefer them.

 

Yep, Im in AUS and most of our covers are like that. Only a few of mine are the cover art ones, and I hope to get rid of them and replace them once the entire series is out. At first it was just black with a coloured Logo, but then they ran out of colours so they use a granite background now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, Im in AUS and most of our covers are like that. Only a few of mine are the cover art ones, and I hope to get rid of them and replace them once the entire series is out. At first it was just black with a coloured Logo, but then they ran out of colours so they use a granite background now.

 

I just wanted to say this exact thing, except all mine up to TPoD are the US covers. They are in terrible condition, pages falling out, covers falling off, covers missing! Very well read, time to start replacing!

My CoT book is a really nice red and gold UK cover, it would be good to find the rest with that colour covers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Crossroads in Twilight book was the lask black cover 1. The logo was all shiny/silver.P-M-B-9780748115433-BEEPB.jpg Wouldnt mind yours though :P n31149.jpg

 

The cover art for ToM is a disspointment. It pretty much confirms Noel going in with matt, and I want him done away with and let olver come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regards to the idea of an army of Trollocs attacking the Seanchan mainland, it is strategic idiocy, and no even halfway competent commander would go along with it. It divides your forces in the face of a superior opposition, opens a second front against a neutral party and does nothing to help you - it would only over-extend your forces. What you need is a concentration of force against your existing enemies.

All good points  :)

 

  Except for the one point about the Seanchan being a superior opposition, as that is debatable considering how they're divided into fifty or so warring factions, according to Semirhage.

Not the Seanchan, the Light. The Light's forces as a whole outnumber the forces of the Shadow, and they have a supremacy of channelers. That's even the most generous estimates, based on the information given. Either the Shadow has armies of channelers unmentioned, or they are going to rely heavily on having infiltrated the Light. And of course my points are good. Unlike most armchair strategists, I do have some idea of what I'm talking about.

 

One great unknown, is how many Trollocs & other Shadowspawn does the Shadow have to use in its war plans?
The Blight is an enormous and thriving ecosystem. Probably millions. That said, 100,000 Trollocs were killed by a handful of channelers at lord Algarin's manor in KoD. And if we look at the channeler groups - AS, AM, Windfinders, Kin, Wise Ones, sul'dam/damane, in none of them do we have reason to suspect a predominance of shadowsworn channelers, and in some evidence directly rules it out (such as the BA). Either the Shadow needs a unmentioned channeler army, or some way to neutralise that supremacy. 

 

They may have enough Trollocs to pull off a full two continent invasion. If the USA could do that in WWII (Pacific War & Europe/North Africa War), its not a 'total strategic idiocy'. Large sacrifices and choices have to be made though if the Shadow's war plan does includes a two-front war.
Well, WWII was not a purely American exercise - the bulk of the casualties sustained in the war against Germany were on the Eastern Front. The USSR broke the back of the German army. American industry was certainly a vital part of winning the war, but it's doubtful the Shadow has such vast resources they can manage it. Even if they can, there is still the question of what advantage would be gained from it - the Seanchan are, to all intents and purposes, out of the game. It makes more sense to defeat your enemies in detail than to take them all on at once.

 

Yet the Last Battle is not going to be like the Trolloc Wars, its going to be different. Many attacks are going to originate from additional un-thought of directions for many Westlanders, not only out the Borderlanders.
The war aim is also different this time - the Shadow wanted to destroy the Ten Nations then, now they want to free Shai'tan.

 

The British edition looks like a mockup of the TGS edition with a different colour and dfferent text.

This just seems like a place-holder for the trade. Perhaps even just a way to keep the pressure on Brandon to deliver the mss asap.

All UK covers look like that, which is why a lot of people prefer them.
Yep, Im in AUS and most of our covers are like that. Only a few of mine are the cover art ones, and I hope to get rid of them and replace them once the entire series is out. At first it was just black with a coloured Logo, but then they ran out of colours so they use a granite background now.
The UK uses black with a coloured logo for the paperbacks. The hardbacks, since CoT, have been the same design with different coloured backgrounds. Do you have KoD in hardback and CoT in paperback?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...