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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Moiraine and Lan's bond.


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I don't believe Cyndane's strength has anything to do with Lanfears at the time of her death. Death would reset her. If you are recycled, you're recycled. There's no need to *heal* anything...

 

It seems more likely to me that the DO decided to teach her humility by weakening her slightly, though not enough to make her less useful, practically. Remember, she did conspire against him.

 

J

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I have read a theory on Lanfear's strength and beauty that explains some of the arguements here. In the AoL she went through that ter'angreal and got her three wishes, to be as strong as a woman possibly could be, which would explain her reaction to Alivia at Shadar Logoth, to be the epitemy of beauty, which would explain her unnatural perfection of apperance, and to leave alive. These gifts were stripped from her when Moiraine dragged her through the doorway a second time for violating the rules.

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Well in response to your question on when she would have time, I thought that time in fact moved differently between the two worlds? Didn't we establish that with the first doorway back in Tear?

 

Nope.

 

And as for the rest of your arguments, you make no point to suggest it can't be done, you're rather arguing "Why would they?"

 

I say that because its valid. Also, i did make a point on that no Aes Sedai would know how to do it even if it could be done. Not through spontaneously discovering it, and not through intentionally seeking a way to do it.

 

Additionally, that Moiraine is a naughty Aes Sedai is no argument... you might as easily say we've never seen an Aes Sedai become a man--indeed, there is logical evidence to suggest that they simply cannot, nor would never have thought about attempting such a alteration, though with healing it would be theoretically possible--yet clearly thats what moiraine has done because she's constantly off doing what other Aes sedai don't.

 

Before you say its a different scenario... is it? This sort of severing would be tantamount to murder. To using the power as a weapon. Is it any more likely then an Aes Sedai trying to make herself a man?

 

That is the logic against it. There is no reason for Moiraine to know how to achieve what you suggest, and a lot against her knowing it, or even being able to do it... time, ability, knowledge, the Three Oaths.

 

My argument to that point is that Moiraine has done a lot of things that would be considered wrong by most Aes Sedai.

 

Yes, but they follow on from her nature. She had good reasons for doing them, there is no good reason for her to do this.

 

Moiraine learned in Ruidean that she needs to be out of the picture for Rand's next part of his journey. Not to mention for each of the characters to move forward (ie: Lan and Nynaeve, and Lan feeling free to start his war in the Blight). What would she be doing for the past several books.

 

She knows that simply releasing the bond will be completely different. If she's alive, they will try to rescue her, which can only succeed with Mat, Thom and one other. So Lan and Rand in specific cannot try. She must make them believe that she died and the only way to do that is by cutting the bond.

 

Yes, this will cause Lan great grief, but maybe she knows that he can handle it. Or maybe she learned that as well in Ruidean. I'm starting to lean on the crutch of Ruidean a lot here, but we at least know based on the letter that she's aware her escape can only work one way, so she does have more knowledge of the future past the doorway then she immediately lets on

 

1. Moiraine made it clear that she would never release Lan from his bond before her death. She specifically thought on this when debating what to do about his feelings for Nynaeve.

 

2. Her knowledge from the rings was far from absolute. Very, very far. Certainly too far for her to make predictions about what effect her death would have on people like Lan and Nynaeve. Certainly far enough for her to not risk Lan dying from a severed bond. If she knew she was going to die, and she knew Lan needed to have his bond severed, she would have released him the night before, tied him up so he wouldn't reveal what was going on, and left a note saying she did it because she was going to die. Same effect.

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you might as easily say we've never seen an Aes Sedai become a man--indeed, there is logical evidence to suggest that they simply cannot, nor would never have thought about attempting such a alteration, though with healing it would be theoretically possible--yet clearly thats what moiraine has done because she's constantly off doing what other Aes sedai don't.

 

Oh please. Your becoming a man analogy is poor to say the least, and a little insulting. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate with you. Becoming a man is not physically possible, whereas severing occurs "naturally" through stilling or death.

 

Now how much of a logical jump do you think a sister would have to make to question whether or not you could severe the link purposely? I disagree that no Aes Sedai has ever even considered the possibility and thus there would be no way for Moiraine to know.

 

In fact, its just as plausible that this was discovered long ago, everyone is told about it, and then told never to do it because it would be tantamount to murder, as you suggest. I'm not saying it happened that way, I'm just saying I find this scenario as believable as your suggestion that no one has ever thought of this.

 

1. Moiraine made it clear that she would never release Lan from his bond before her death. She specifically thought on this when debating what to do about his feelings for Nynaeve.

 

That's a good point and hard to refute. But where is it in the books? Before or after Ruidean?

 

2. Her knowledge from the rings was far from absolute. Very, very far. Certainly too far for her to make predictions about what effect her death would have on people like Lan and Nynaeve.

 

You don't need to have advanced knowledge from the rings to know what will happen with Lan and Nynaeve. They had been wearing their feelings on their sleeve for a long time (at least as much as you can say Lan would do something like that).

 

Certainly far enough for her to not risk Lan dying from a severed bond. If she knew she was going to die, and she knew Lan needed to have his bond severed, she would have released him the night before, tied him up so he wouldn't reveal what was going on, and left a note saying she did it because she was going to die. Same effect.

 

That completely would not work. Telling someone she is going to die, and dying are totally different. With your scenario, Lan would still go after her, along with Rand as well I'm sure.

 

My best point, and major argument remains:

 

1. Moiraine knows that she's going to be trapped and that only specific people can rescue her.

2. She knows that the only way Lan and/or Rand would not attempt to do so would be if she was dead.

3. The only way to make everyone believe she is dead is by severing the bond with Lan.

 

I agree that it's a very dangerous thing to do to Lan, but it was the only way. I suppose she could only hope that Myrelle's new passed bond would keep Lan alive. Or maybe she did know from the rings that he would survive, though I'm not outright suggesting it.

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We know for certain that the door way did indeed exist during the War of Power..it is mentioned as Rand goes through the glass columns in TSR.

 

I personally think that the severing of Lan's bond came from stilling. Everyone is assuming that Moriane is dead up to book 11.

 

Agelessness IS an effect of the oath rod..it is clearly stated in the series by both sides.

 

Recall Semi's tortue of the sister(cant remember her name) and her warder. She is thinking back on when she was discovered in the AoL torturing her patients. The hall offered her a choice. Severing or binding...Binding on what is now one of the oath rods. She said they offered her binding to never again "have her pleasures and see the end of life" Meaning the oath rod shortens the otherwise almost immortal life of a channeller.

 

Elyane and co. discoved this when they discovered the kin.

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Oh please. Your becoming a man analogy is poor to say the least, and a little insulting. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate with you. Becoming a man is not physically possible, whereas severing occurs "naturally" through stilling or death.

 

Sure its possible... people do it all the time. And with the one power it would not only be possible, it's likely be easier. The point is that it would be absurd for any Aes Sedai to have concidered doing it. Just as this is.

 

Now how much of a logical jump do you think a sister would have to make to question whether or not you could severe the link purposely? I disagree that no Aes Sedai has ever even considered the possibility and thus there would be no way for Moiraine to know.

 

In fact, its just as plausible that this was discovered long ago, everyone is told about it, and then told never to do it because it would be tantamount to murder, as you suggest. I'm not saying it happened that way, I'm just saying I find this scenario as believable as your suggestion that no one has ever thought of this.

 

There is logical evidence against it and none supporting it. Concider:

 

1. They already have a harmless way of getting rid of the bond.

 

2. Severing the bond in that manner would be tantamount to murder.

 

3. Severing the bond in that manner would have adverse effects on the Aes Sedai.

 

4. Other weaves that are forbidden (balefire, compulsion, etc) are loudly decried. We have heard the bans on them mentioned countlessly--yet with all the bonding going on, and with characters specifically seeking knowledge on bonding, we have never heard the slightest mention of such a thing.

 

5. Moiraine would have had no time to implement it.

 

6. Moiraine would never have done that to Lan. If she'd known before hand that Lan needed to be released and still think she was dead, she could have easily managed it in a less convaluted and potentially fatal manner.

 

It's too complex, and relies too much on the argument of 'oh, well, the Aes Sedai know stuff... and Moiraine... she like, knew way more stuff." So no, its not equal in weight to my theory, which has precedents in the book and is the simplest explanation.

 

That's a good point and hard to refute. But where is it in the books? Before or after Ruidean?

 

I believe it occurs in the second book. Moiraine is thinking on how Nynaeve has changed Lan and on her plans that would allow Lan to be with Nynaeve after her death, but not before. As a part of that she thinks on the bond.

 

You don't need to have advanced knowledge from the rings to know what will happen with Lan and Nynaeve. They had been wearing their feelings on their sleeve for a long time (at least as much as you can say Lan would do something like that).

 

So are your suggesting that she was trying to kill Lan by severing the bond? Just to keep him away from Nynaeve? Because if she was just allowing them to be together then she'd have released the bond the night before, not risked his death which would have been more then likely. As is stated many times, few warders survive the death-absortion. And if it was merely a matter of convincing him she is dead... she could have handled that too with ease once the bond was released. It would merely have taking convincing him she knew beforehand (which she did) and was trying to save him the pain.

 

That completely would not work. Telling someone she is going to die, and dying are totally different. With your scenario, Lan would still go after her, along with Rand as well I'm sure.

 

It would easily work. Moiraine releases the bond. Lan confronts her, she tells him she foresaw her death in the rings and that he was still needed, then simply ensures he can't do anything to intervene the next day by wrapping him up in flows of air or the like and stashing him away. Do you really think he'd believe she lied after she disapeared into a ter'angreal that subsequently exploded?

 

1. Moiraine knows that she's going to be trapped and that only specific people can rescue her.

2. She knows that the only way Lan and/or Rand would not attempt to do so would be if she was dead.

3. The only way to make everyone believe she is dead is by severing the bond with Lan.

 

I agree that it's a very dangerous thing to do to Lan, but it was the only way. I suppose she could only hope that Myrelle's new passed bond would keep Lan alive. Or maybe she did know from the rings that he would survive, though I'm not outright suggesting it.

 

 

Your theory is too convuluted to be true. If Moiraine had the goals and intentions you suggest she had then there were infinitely more simple things she could have done then risk killing Lan in that manner--something im not even sure she could do given the three oaths. Egwene thinks to herself that Aes sedai would likely be unable to even form the weaves to sink a ship on the off-chance a man may die from it. Is this any different? Do you really think Moiraine could have formed the weaves to sever the bond with the reality that it more then probably would kill him?

 

And you still havn't explained where Moiraine found the time or the power to do this during her battle with Lanfear. Nor how the finns could possible hold an active channeler.

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