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Stevenator

Defending “Sever Us� Snape (SPOILERS!!)

Do you like Aes Sedai or no?  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like Aes Sedai or no?

    • Yes, they rock!
      11
    • Burn the witches!!
      9


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Throughout the series, Snape's sinister personality and antagonism towards Harry are in stark contrast with his heroic actions in Harry's defence. On several occasions, Snape tries to have Harry expelled from Hogwarts. Yet in spite of these attempts to sabotage Harry's school career, Snape still saves Harry's life on more than one occasion.

 

What can explain this?

 

Let’s say that Snape is unltimatly a “good guy†(as I believe). Much of Snape's disdain for Harry stems from the constant rivalry and strife with Harry's father James, and this is a viable explantation for his daily beligerence towards Harry. But what of his actions supporting Harry? Besides the obvious explanation of being “alliesâ€, there may be a deeper reason. Many years ago, James Potter saved Snape’s life by preventing him from wandering into the Shrieking Shack while Remus Lupin was undergoing transformation into a werewolf. Dumbledore has suggested that Snape is still influenced, perhaps magically, by the power of that debt. This is one potential reason for his conflicting actions.

 

The bigger picture, involing loyalty to Dumbldore or Voldemort, is another creature all together. Here are 44 reasons that prove (when put together) Snape is good:

 

1. The scene at Spinner’s End feels very staged and Snape’s answers sound very pat and well rehearsed. He has clearly thought about all of them many times before. Why would that be true unless he is really on the side of good? (HBP, p. 25-31) And he lies to them! Twice! Once about why he never killed Harry all those years at Hogwarts, and second that he already knew of the “malfoy†plan.

 

2. Snape’s logic about why Bellatrix and Narcissa should believe he is true to Voldemort sounds suspiciously like a good reason for us to believe he is true to Dumbledore: “You think he is mistaken? Or that I have somehow hoodwinked him? Fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen?†(HBP, p. 26) It is impossible to read these lines without thinking of Dumbledore. Throughout the books we have been led to believe Dumbledore is the greatest wizard alive and we know that he is someone even Voldemort fears. It seems highly likely that Rowling wanted readers to draw this parallel.

 

3. During the final part of the Unbreakable Vow, when Narcissa asks Snape to carry out the task if Draco fails, Snape hesitates. (HBP, p. 36) It is not possible that this twitch of Snape’s hand has no importance. On the contrary, I believe it shows that Snape and Dumbledore may already have discussed this and Snape knows what he has to do, but he’s not happy about it.

 

4. Throughout the book it is clear that Dumbledore has decided to let Harry in on all of the information he has about Voldemort. It almost seems that he is doing this so that Harry could carry on even without him. This makes perfect sense if he knew he would die soon.

 

5. Dumbledore gives Snape the Defense Against the Dark Arts position regardless of the fact that it is cursed. Why would Dumbledore do this? He already knew for a fact that Snape would not stay the whole year. Obviously, a plan was already in motion.

 

6. Throughout the series we have been shown what a great wizard Dumbledore is. He is the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. Is it really possible that Snape could defeat him so easily? More than that, is it possible that Rowling really expects us to believe he could? To believe that Snape is evil is to believe that Dumbledore is a fool. It is highly unlikely that Snape was able to deceive Dumbledore all this time when even Tom Riddle couldn’t do it. Dumbledore obviously has a very good reason for trust that we are not aware of yet. No matter what it is, from a literary standpoint, if Snape is actually evil, why leave this part a mystery? And do you really believe JKR is trying to say that trusting people is a weakness? What a happy story! In order to have love you must have trust, and it's pretty obvious that love is an important component to defeating evil.

 

7. Over and over again, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, Harry defends the “Half-Blood Princeâ€. Since the “Half-Blood Prince†ends up being Snape all along, shouldn’t the parallel hold true?

 

8. Snape does a decent job of teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts. If he were truly evil, why would he want to teach Harry and his friends to defend themselves against the Dark Arts? Hermione even compares Snape’s views to Harry’s: “Yes, when you were telling us what it’s like to face Voldemort. You said it wasn’t just memorizing a bunch of spells, you said it was just you and your brain and your guts - well, wasn’t that what Snape was saying? That it really comes down to being brave and quick-thinking?†(HBP, p. 181) Why draw this comparison at all if Snape were really evil?

 

9. When Filch finds Malfoy lurking in the halls and brings him to Slughorn’s Christmas party, we get a brief glimpse of something strange: “Filch’s expression of outraged disappointment was perfectly predictable; but why, Harry wondered, watching him, did Malfoy look almost equally unhappy? And why was Snape looking at Malfoy as though both angry and... was it possible?... a little afraid?†(HBP, p. 321) I can’t see why he would be afraid if he had no problem with Draco carrying out his task.

 

10. When Snape takes Malfoy away from Slughorn’s party to question him, he seems very concerned with getting answers from him, no matter how he got them. He even tries Legilmency. Why would someone do this on an ally? If Snape simply wanted to help he could do something even without the details, like grant Malfoy special privileges or offer his services as a lookout or something.

 

11. When, during one of their lessons, Harry tells Dumbledore all about what he heard Snape and Malfoy discussing, Dumbledore doesn’t really seem surprised. After Harry keeps pressing him on it, he finally suggests that Harry doesn’t have all of the details and is missing a key part. (HBP, p. 358-359)

 

12. Snape doesn't have an "Aha! I am evil." monologue. Snape kills Dumbledore very suddenly without any speech or anything. If Snape were actually evil all along, I would have expected him to stand in front of the weakened Dumbledore, relishing this moment, announcing that he alone was able to fool the mighty Dumbledore, that he would enjoy killing this man he has been forced to serve for so many years, that Voldemort will triumph in the end and his loyal Death Eaters will bask in the glory... you get the picture. It's what villains are supposed to do (Quirrel, Tom Riddle (in the diary), faux-Moody, Umbridge, and Draco all had moments where they explain the brilliance of their evil plans). Snape didn't.

 

13. Which makes a better story - the guy who no one ever trusted ends up evil or the guy who no one ever trusted was actually good all along? There’s no reason to focus so much on Snape throughout the series if he is just a flat, evil character. "Snape is evil" is much too simple and it ignores a lot of evidence from previous books. It makes him much more interesting if he is complex and multifaceted and if the reader’s initial expectations are proven wrong in the end. And if Snape is evil, what’s the message of the books? There is no literary value in creating a character who seems evil and then turns out to be evil. Throughout the series there have been many instances where we learn (for lack of a better phrase) “not to judge a book by it’s coverâ€. Why should Snape be any different? Many times he has been accused of evil action, but later on we always learn that this was misinterpretation. It fits perfectly that this theme continues in book 6 and that Snape’s greatest treachery is actually an act of the utmost loyalty.

 

14. Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about something important. As we’ve seen over and over again in this series, things like this rarely turn out to be as simple as they first appear and frequently the conclusion that Harry first jumps to turns out to be wrong (like when he overheard Snape threatening Quirrel in Book1). I think it’s very possible Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about some kind of plan they had formulated - possibly one that could end in Snape killing Dumbledore. There is a parallel between Snape’s refusals and Dumbledore reminding him of his promise and the similar scene later on in The Cave where Dumbledore uses similar logic on Harry. Rowling rarely reuses such things unless we are supposed to draw a parallel. If Snape respects Dumbledore, as we’ve always been led to believe, he could very well have promised to do whatever Dumbledore ordered him to do without fully understanding the implications.

 

15. Once Dumbledore gives Harry the task of procuring Slughorn’s complete memory about Horcruxes, he is very anxious to get it. Was he perhaps on some kind of timetable? Maybe he knew he didn’t have much time left to live.

 

16. We are told by Dumbledore that after he got the ring Horcrux, he was badly injured and Snape fixed him up. Why would Snape not just let him die if he really wanted to kill him?

 

17. Even after Harry tells Dumbledore about Malfoy celebrating because he has clearly accomplished the task he was working on, Dumbledore doesn’t postpone their task. One could even argue that he seems even more motivated to go on. Could this be because he knows he won’t survive Malfoy’s trap? (HBP, p. 550)

 

18. Just before they go to the Cave, Dumbledore makes Harry promise to obey any command he gives him even if it is something that might put Dumbledore in danger. This seems very similar to the argument Hagrid overheard between Snape and Dumbledore early on.

 

19. On at least two occasions, Dumbledore reminds Harry that he is less valuable than Harry. The first instance is when they enter The Cave, and the second instance is just before Dumbledore drinks the mystery potion. Why else put this in there unless Dumbledore knew he was going to die soon?

 

20. Dumbledore reminds Harry not to fear death

 

21. Dumbledore tells us the mystery potion may be deadly, but it won’t kill him immediately (p. 569)

 

22. The potion scene is particularly hard to endure/read. Dumbledore is in pain or anguish and Harry is forced to keep giving him potion because he promised to do so. (HBP, p. 569) Why put in such an uncomfortable scene - especially one so similar to what ultimately happens between Snape and Dumbledore - unless we are supposed to remember it and draw from it later? We’ve already been given some of the parallels with the argument overheard by Hagrid so, why not follow the parallel all the way to its ultimate conclusion - that Snape was equally appalled when he had to kill Dumbledore, but he had to follow orders no matter what.

 

23. Throughout the potion-drinking scene, Dumbledore says things like “I want to die.†and “Kill me!†(HBP, p. 573) These sentences all had to be there for a reason. Their presence alone casts doubt on the simple interpretation of the scene where Snape kills Dumbledore. It seems likely that similar sentiments may have been involved there.

 

24. Dumbledore is certain that he needs Snape when he returns to the school (HBP, p. 580). Why would Dumbledore insist on seeing Snape when he could have just as easily asked to see Madame Pomfrey or someone at St. Mungo’s? Is it possible Dumbledore already knew he was dying and he needed to see Snape so he could fulfill the Unbreakable Vow.

 

25. On the Astronomy Tower, when Dumbledore is questioning Malfoy, he seems unsurprised by much of Malfoy’s plan. (HBP, p 584) It seems likely that Dumbledore had already heard most of this from Snape. Why would Snape give him this information if Snape was evil?

 

26. Just before Snape reaches the tower, Dumbledore makes this important point: “Killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe...†(HBP, p. 586) Why would Rowling place this just before Snape kills unless we are supposed to apply it to him as well?

 

27. Throughout all of Malfoy’s revelations that Snape is a “double agent†etc., Dumbledore still trusts Snape. (HBP, p. 588) None of these revelations seem to shock him. Can we really so easily dismiss Dumbledore’s absolute faith in a character?

 

28. Even faced with certain defeat, Dumbledore implies that Voldemort has failed (HBP, p. 590). Why would Dumbledore say such a thing unless he knows more than he has let on? Perhaps this is all part of the plan. Or perhaps Voldemort’s plan hasn’t been completely successful because Snape is still good and will ultimately contribute to Voldemort’s downfall.

 

29. During his conversation with Malfoy on the tower, Dumbledore says this: “It is my mercy, and not yours that matters now.†(HBP, p. 592) It certainly doesn’t seem like he has any power over Malfoy at the moment considering he is weakened and perhaps dying from the potion he drank and he has no wand. Maybe this line is meant to be interpreted differently. Rowling purposefully avoids giving a pronoun here. It makes me wonder if she is actually referring to someone showing mercy to Dumbledore. This would make sense if he was expecting Snape to kill him soon - particularly if the potion was deadly or caused great pain.

 

30. Dumbledore doesn’t deny Amycus’ assumption that he is “not long for this world†(HBP, p. 594). Perhaps this is a clue that Dumbledore would have died from the potion anyway and Snape was only hastening the inevitable.

 

31. There are parallels in language between the Cave scene and the Tower scene:

 

“Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore’s mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside." (HBP, p.571)

 

“Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.†(HBP, p. 595)

 

Why would Rowling use such parallel language in such parallel scenes if we as readers are not supposed to draw parallel conclusions. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that Rowling wants us to see the parallel and wants us to believe that Snape too is hating himself and feels revulsion for what he has to do. Dumbledore is pleading for Snape to kill him and Snape must follow his orders. Considering both men know Occlumency, we can’t know exactly what might have been said between them before Snape casts the Avada Kedavra spell.

 

32. If Snape could so easily kill Dumbledore, then why didn’t he take out a few other Order members on his way out? If he is truly evil, he shouldn’t have had any qualms about killing Flitwick or Hermione and Luna or anyone else he passed on the way out.

 

33. During the fight between Harry and Snape just before Snape escapes, Snape blocks Harry’s spell attempts over and over again, but he doesn’t cast any curses on Harry in return. If he’s truly evil, why not? (HBP, p. 602)

 

34. Snape gives Harry advice: “Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!†(HBP, p. 603) Out of all of the insults he could have used, why give Harry advice if Snape’s evil? He goes on to ridicule Harry’s attacks and failure to grasp Occlumency and non-verbal spells. This can be interpreted as the actions of a schoolmaster or ally, disguised instructions to improve at Occlumency and non-verbal spell casting to stand any chance of defeating Voldemort.

 

35. As another Death Eater starts to curse Harry, Snape stops them midway through because of Voldemort’s orders. (HBP, p. 603) Are we really supposed to believe Voldemort would have objected to a little Harry torture as long as they didn’t kill him?

 

36. Snape doesn’t even try to take Harry with him as he escapes. I know that it may have been against Voldemort’s “ordersâ€, but I don’t think even Voldemort would have objected much if Snape had brought Harry to him.

 

37. Snape’s reaction to coward - and Rowling’s wording: “DON’T -“ screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them - “CALL ME COWARD!†(HBP, p. 604) Why would Rowling use the analogy of the beloved dog trapped in a burning house unless we are supposed to think of Snape in a similar way? Snape is in pain, and he reacts harshly to the word coward because what he was forced to do took a great amount of effort and bravery and has cost him a lot. The comparison to Fang is purposeful on Rowling’s part—we are meant to see this as a very sad scene (Snape had no other option)

 

39. We are reminded by Dumbledore several times that Riddle has no close friends. What better way to ensure that Snape could become Voldemort’s closest confidant than to have him kill the only wizard Voldemort ever feared? Dumbledore knew they needed to find out more about Voldemort’s plans.

 

40. There is no way that Snape could have told both Dumbledore and Voldemort that he knew Occlumency because he had to have been lying to one of them so he would have needed to keep this ability a secret from the one he was being dishonest with. It is clear that Dumbledore knows Snape can use Occlumency. Because of this, Dumbledore would have definitely taken some additional step to make sure Snape was telling the truth.

 

41. Fawkes has arrived to save Dumbledore before at a moment's notice (from the same spell no less) and so why couldn't he do it this time? At the Ministry of Magic fight between Dumbledore and Voldemort, Fawkes stopped an ‘Avada Kedavra’ curse. Perhaps this time, he didn’t come because he was told not to.

 

42. Dumbledore’s ambiguous last words, "Severus... please...", may be taken as pleading with Snape not to kill him and to refuse Voldemort's orders, or as the exact opposite, a request to proceed in accordance with some plan of Dumbledore's

 

43. We know from Professor Slughorn that the drink of Felix Felicis “will find that all your endeavors tend to succeed†(p. 187). We also know that Ginny, Ron, and Hermione all drank Felix Felicis the night of Dumbledore’s death. So, when Ron says “I messed up, Harry,†and tells him how he let Draco and the Death Eaters pass, I wondered, how could something so unlucky happen to the drinker of liquid luck? Hermione joins in, saying that she was stupid not to realize that Snape had stupefied Professor Flitwick. But for someone waiting to catch Snape betraying the Order, how could liquid luck not help her out? The answer to both of these is that Felix Felicis was working to Ron and Hermione’s advantage.

 

44. In the Tower scene, why did Dumbledore freeze Harry? Harry was already invisible and in no danger. The only explanation could be that Dumbledore already knew, had already planned, that he would die this night, and not only did he not want Harry to become involved and possibly be injured himself, he needed Harry to be a witness, to be able to tell everyone else what happened. The supposition that it was Dumbledore's plan to do this all along is supported by the fact that he acted so quickly to do it, almost without thinking, when Draco burst in on the scene.

 

Thank you for reading all this, and thanks to all the websites I stole text from.

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Wow... lots of very good points. I just finished the six books myself, so I'm still debating stuff.

 

We're having HP discussions on the White Tower board if you want to stop by there too... :)

 

Edit: Well fek, I hit the wrong thingy on the poll... so uhh I didn't vote for the one I wanted... lol.

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Guest DSage

Good points...still think Snapes bad! Won't know till book numero 7

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hey, hey

 

--I see three votes for Snape being evil, but no explanations. I took the time to compile a 44 point list and it would be nice to have some counter arguments.

 

what if you just have a lot of time on your hands?

 

haha, i've been told this on other forums also.

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Guest DSage

its coincidence, i never voted, just talking

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Aaaah, while those 44 pionts were an interesting read, it only takes one piont against him to make him evil...

 

Like they say, it only takes one bad egg to spoil the batch...

 

I think that that one bad point is this...

 

ahhem...

 

:o :o :o :o THE DUDE FRICKIN KILLED DUMBULDORE!!!!! :o :o :o :o

 

honestly, how much more proof do you need to convict a guy, he could have killed The Death Eaters who were raiding the school but Noooooooooooooo he went and killed old Dumby....

 

not only that, but he has been know in the past to conspire with Death eaters....

 

and if you want to know WHY he saved Harry's worthless skin so many times, here are a few reasons...

 

1. He wants Harry to Trust him

2. He wants Dumby to Trust him

3. He wants everyone in the school to Trust him

4. He probably has orders from Voldemort saying not to kill him because Voldemort wants to kill him personaly...

 

its not that hard to understand, Snape IS A BAD GUY!!!

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why would he actually kill dumbledore instead of doing like a spell that looks like avada kedavra and let dubledore live, but also having confused everyone else and dumbley go into hiding until the time is right to come out and help the battle.

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Stevenator, I think I love you *lol*

 

I'm a little short on time right now, but as soon as absolutely possible I'm going to go through your list, read it and then comment on it. I'm known at the White Tower as the #1 Harry Potter freakazoid (so dubbed by Jhaenara Sedai :P), and I was very excited to see this here. Snape drives me crazy. I can never decide where I stand on him, and I've had many heated discussions with people on this subject. This post really made my day, and I can't wait to get into it =)

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honestly, how much more proof do you need to convict a guy

 

a lot more than we have – why would Rowling spend so much time crafting an underground network of clues towards the conclusion that “Snape is Good†if the shallow surface answer is correct? Always in the past Rowling has left a similar trail of breadcrumbs foreshadowing a “gasp, where did that come from?†moment, the only difference now being that we have to wait an extra book for the revelation.

 

its not that hard to understand, Snape IS A BAD GUY!!!

 

How do you explain away the absence of Fawkes, the failure of Felix Felicis, Dumbledore’s absolute steadfast faith in Snape, Dumbledore’s knowledge of his death, Snape’s lies to the Death Eaters, and the many scenes where Rowling forces us to draw parallels? If Snape is evil, the author has destroyed her most fascinating, multifaceted character.

 

1. He wants Harry to Trust him

 

well that "coy plan" failed

 

2. He wants Dumby to Trust him

 

Snape fooled the greatest wizard of all time, I see.

 

3. He wants everyone in the school to Trust him

 

well that "coy plan" failed

 

4. He probably has orders from Voldemort saying not to kill him because Voldemort wants to kill him personaly...

 

ahh, but why not take him to Voldemort? He way overmatched Harry at the end of HBP. I don't think even Voldy could have turned down a stunned Harry Potter appearing at his doorsteped.

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I finally took the time to read through this, and while I find some of your points to have no substance, others are really well thought out. And I can never decide how I feel about this, because while there are some definite things pointing towards Snape being good, there are also some pointing to him being evil.

 

I think Snape is evil. I do have some serious doubts, but all in all I think that it's easier (and I say this is the lightest sense of the word) to fool Dumbledore than Voldemort. Dumledore, after all, is a good guy, and he has the (dis?)advantage of being able to both trust someone and to love someone. It was established in HBP that Voldemort does neither. And as such he'd be a lot more suspicious of Snape than Dumbledore would be. And Dumbledore makes mistakes, he said so himself.

 

I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being - forgive me - rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huge. HBP p. 187, British version.

 

And that, in my eyes, combined with the fact that Snape has been an absolute jackass through most of the other books is the main thing that points towards Snape's evilness.

 

I would love for someone to debate this with me, though. It has been forever since I had a good HP discussion. You even use page numbers. Seriously, I think I may love you. *lol*

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I totally agree with you, Maria! Snapes a bad guy! I always thought Dumbledore (sorry if i offend)too trusting! And I think that him being a huge support for Harry, J.K. Rowling would have had him killed by an evil guy!

 

I must admit that the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore startled me at the beginning, but I always knew that he was the bad guy! I guess I should say "suspected". It was the fact that Snape was proven innocent so many times that lead me to believe he was evil! He obviously hates Harry in my mind and the fact that Dumbledore said many times "I trust Severus" made me think that Dumbledore would pay badly for trusting this greasy snake!

 

I had a feeling that Dumbledore would be betrayed by Snape in HBP when I got about to (forgive me for drawing a blank) the chapter where Dumbledore tells the students that Snape is DADA teacher and Slugghorn is Potions teacher! I felt that that was a huge mistake on Dumbledores part.

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I think Snape is Dumbeldor's loyal inside man. At first I didn't think so but then I noticed some of the things Stevenator noted. The main one is that he never gloated. That's fantasy villain law. And if the "Dark Lord" is the only one who can kill Harry, I don't think he would mind if his Death Eaters roughed Harry up a little.

 

And in Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone it was Voldemort who was trying to kill Harry. Remember he was riding Quirrel's body.

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It is what it is. He's evil. He has always been evil, but now he has the opportunity to back the wrong horse (again)

 

The mindscrew that J.K. is putting us through is not that he had to do some hugely horrible thing for the cause of good (like say killing Dumbledore) it's that he was in fact NEVER truly good. He saw the downfall of Moldywart and jumped ship. He was obviously VERY convincing because Dumbledore was backing him to the hilt the WHOLE time. Then the bad came back and he was put in a precarious situation. He didn't leave right away but he DID go back, and I don't just mean physically. I think the idea was going to be "stradle the fence cause I'm in good with BOTH sides" but Draco wussing out at the last minute tipped his hand and he killed Dumbledore, probably not because he wanted to (cause that fence just got awfully slippery) but because he had to. That's also why he didn't "gloat" and he seemed so upset about it. He absolutly HAS to have evil win now. There's no middle ground for him to inhabit anymore. and I think THAT'S what ticked him off.

 

Also I'd like to point out he might have gotten upset at Harry calling him a coward because Harry's father put him through hell in school and Harry being so much like his father just snaped something in his mind.

 

That's MY two cents...Snape is gonna get his though...just you wait and see. I'm thinking a lifetime in Askaban will chill him out.

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I have to admit I agree more with Covenant than with Stevenator (although your 44-point list still has me singing your praises ;)). With that being said, I won't be all too surprised if Snape ends up being on Harry's side all along. JK has given us bigger surprises than this, and she will continue to do so until the very end. I also have a feeling that when we finally get our answer it will be something none of us has thought about. She's a damn sneaky woman, and she knows how to mess around with her audience.

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Exactly! I think that because she has done all these braintwisters on us, she will expect us to think he is good! That way she could pull one over on us when it turns out he was evil all along! I also thought that your 44-list was impressive, Steve, but I'm sticking with Snape being evil!

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I figure Snape's good. It's not because I did a lot of researching into his history, or anything like that. I figure it mostly because

1) We mostly hear Harry dissing on Snape, but their relationship is like that of a intermediate/high school student with a Calculus teacher, or something. It's intuitive that Harry, not being as booksmart as someone like Hermione, would despise his Potions (aka calculus, physics, or some other science/math based class) teacher. All these ideas that Snape is a bad guy comes from Harry and Sirius. Neither of them have a reason to like him. So, the idea of Snape being a bad guy is really just the fantasies of a high school student and his godfather (who, in some respects, never really "grew up").

2) Besides, it would be too obvious for Snape to be bad. Not enough suspense/drama/whatever.

3) It's like a staple in books for the perceived bad guy to end up being a good guy, and we've seen Snape do it a bunch of times.

4) Snape and Dumbledore stared at each other for a while before Snape axed him (ps: I cried when the big D died...seriously). All that staring, it was probably Dumbledore telling Snape through occlumency (or whatever...the ESP magic they've talked about earlier in the book) that it's time to put their plan into action (I stole that theory from a friend of mine, if she reads this, I just want her to know that I cited her...LoL).

5) Even if Snape killed Dumbledore without it being an aforementioned plan, he is still a good guy. Whatever happened, it's for the greater good of both Harry and Malfoy.

 

Finally, and this is just how I feel about the ending of the sixth book: it is a popular theme in many stories to kill of the hero's mentor, only to have him/her reappear after the hero has begun to come into his/her own. It happened in the Lord of the Rings, it happened in the Shannara series...I mean it even happened in WOT (Moiraine is NOT dead). I don't think Dumbledore's finished either, and I think it's part of Snape and Dumbledore's plan to play this whole thing out.

Either way, Snape's a good guy, I think. At least, I hope. I mean, it would be a total cop out for him to turn out to be a bad guy. Plus, it would mean that we couldn't trust Dumbledore to be the awesomest magician ever, because it would mean that Snape and Voldemort tricked him...and that's just impossible!

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Stevenator,

I totally agree with you and I think your points are excellent.

I've always felt that Snape was on the good side.

I don't think that he is a nice person and he has some big chips on his shoulder about James, Harry and Sirius, but he has done somethings that just do not correspond with what Voldemort would have wanted.

About the reasoning that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry, I think that changed after the graveyard scene where he told the death eaters to kill him. Also at the ministry at the end of TOotP the death eaters didn't have orders to take him alive but to kill him. They only didn't due to Harry having the prophesy in his hands.

I alos believe that Dumbledore and Snape planned his death...It wouldn't suprise me if Dumbledore didn't have an Horcruxe of his own...so we may see him again. If Snape was truely evil he would not have hesitated so long up at the top of the tower before he killed Dumbledore he would have done it swiftly and got out of there asap.

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I agree with details. The only thing is that it would be quite stupid if Dumbledore would be alive suddenly. I mean he isn't supposed to live beyond a avada kedavra curse. Unless he uses a Horcruxe himself like tessa said. It's quite long ago that i read it. So i'm not sure if that possibility could be ruled out. But unless he had one of his own he shouldn't live in my oppinion

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Good guy, no doubt...

 

Why did Snape jump so quickly to the unbreakable vow with Belatrix and Narcissa.

 

Why was Dumbledore so adament in his support of Snape?

 

The answer is one and the same. Snape had made an unbreakable vow to Dumbledore. How else could Dumbledore be so confidant of someone he knew was a tallented Occlumens? That is at least the conclusion I jumped to after I finished the book. Besides, it just seems like it would be way too much of a cop out to say, "Gee Harry, I guess you were right all along."

 

I am fairly confidant that Snape will die before the end, though if he does, I believe he will die saving Harry's life.

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Of course Snape is Dumbledore's man. Up until the last book the only "evil" thing he did in the series was that he was mean to Harry. So naturally he must be bad. Snape has done things for Dumbledore and for good and I believe he was forced to kill him. The whole book was leading up to that.

 

Besides, these books do try to give lessons in them and if Snape is evil, then the entire point of Snape's journey is that you should trust your initial thoughts of people because that will always be proven true. In my opinion, Snape's character is there for two reasons:

 

1) To show that just because you didn't like someone at first, it does not mean they are bad.

 

2) You don't have to like someone to work with them for a cause. Not everyone can be friends, but you can still rely on them when the going gets tough.

 

 

Ender

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I'll preface this by saying I hope Snape is on Harry's side.

 

But Stevenator, you say that Dumbledore is coming clean with Harry, and that Snape performing the Avada Kadavra on Dumbledore is planned. Sure Dumbledore would've let Harry know about the plan...

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I'm reviving this thread again, but mostly cause I can't sleep and have been thinking a lot about Harry lately. Mainly I've been thinking about how immature he is. Let's face it, much as I love the guy; he's not the brightest of people. First of all he is 16. Up until age 11 he didn't have much interaction with people, only with his aunt, uncle, cousin and sometimes his uncle's sister and his cousin's evil friends. None of the aformentioned people cared for him much, if at all, and Harry never really grew emotionally.

 

This again comes to show in Harry's alligance to Dumbledore. Dumbledore was one of the first people (after Hagrid) who showed Harry what it was like when someone believed in him. Dumbledore pulled Harry into his confidences pretty early, he treated him almost like an affectionate grandfather would treat his favorite grandson. I don't blame Malfoy and the Slytherins for disliking Harry for it. If my headmaster had so clearly favoritized one of the students in my year then I would've gotten a little hostile, too.

 

It's the same with Snape. Snape shows Harry he hates him from the moment they meet. And to Harry, in a way, Snape is just an extension of his relatives. And Snape doesn't even dislike Harry for something he himself has done, he does it because he didn't like Harry's father! And as we see time and again, Harry definitely has the image of his father as the Hero (with a capital H). And then of course Sirius, his father's best friend must've been a hero, too. Also because in a way Sirius is the only "real" family Harry had. But like Details said, Sirius himself never really grew up (even Jo said so on her webpage), and we can't expect Sirius to give the most impartial account of the truth. And so when someone so influential in Harry's life tells him that Snape is a badguy, well, then Harry is bound to believe it.

 

Finally I just want to say that these books are all from Harry's point of view. We know what Harry know, nothing else. And as such the mistakes Harry make will, in essence, also be our mistakes. We feel what he feel, and we like or dislike the people he likes or dislikes. And since Harry's account of everything is clearly very biased, then I think it's unbelievably difficult to make a stand on the Snape matter. Harry thinks Snape is bad, but mainly because he hated his father, treated him unfairly without seemingly having a reason, and eventually killed Dumbledore, Harry's mentor in everything.

 

And now I get to my point. (Yes, I can hear you all going "finally!") Danis, I think you're wrong. I'm not at all sure Dumbledore would have let Harry in on the plan. Dumbledore worked in mysterious ways, he did things in his own time, and he let Harry know only what he though Harry should know. There is a difference between "should know" and "need to know". The things Harry "need to know" are endless, starting with exactly what his parents and godfather were like, ending with "did Dumbledore and Snape have a great plan to fight Evil?". I think there were countless things Dumbledore could have told Harry that would have helped him. But from now on Harry is on his own. Dumbledore dying is the ultimate evidence to that.

 

I believe Dumbledore knew he was dying. He may not know that Snape would kill him (the jury is still out on that one and I simply cannot decide), but come on. Dumbledore was ancient, Harry himself remarks at several points that he's looking older and more tired, and he has a cursed hand! Surely the curse that blackened his hand must do something to the rest of his body. And as such Dumbledore gave Harry all the information he thinks Harry should to know. And then, in a way, it doesn't matter if Dumbledore and Snape had a great intricate plan, because Dumbledore knew he was soon going to be gone no matter what, and as such Snape's AK only speeded things up a little.

 

Right, I could ramble on about this forever, and you probably think I have. I just think it's a very interesting discussion, and I keep thinking of new things and I hope you will too =)

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