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I would ASSUME that male dreamers could exist. Dreamers in and of themselves are pretty rare (egwene being the only notable non-aiel randlander in some time, with the wise ones being the only others), even amongst people who can channel. (IIRC, channeling isn't required explicitly but it seems to help).

 

Wise ones get training in it. The majority of males who are potential dreamers are also channellers and thus die or go mad long before they learn the discipline necessary for Dreaming.

 

IIRC (might be wrong) demandred has spied in t'a'r (on elayne?) which I would assume involved some degree of "using" the environment ("teleporting around") rather than physical sneakiness. Which would make him a Dreamer (albeit a weaker one). And MOST of the male forsaken got punched out early on in the series or weren't inclined that way.

 

Among the dark, the strong are the only ones to survive. For most of the guys that's a physical/raw power kind of thing (even the more thoughtful ones like demandred who's a general is still VERY powerful), the women (naturally weaker than the men) would only be able to advance by changing the game and being crafty/sneaky. As a general rule among the forsaken, guys lead armies and/or fight directly, the women manipulate from the sides or contribute raw brainpower (mesaana likes actual physics without the application of the power, semirhage knows more about bodies than anyone, graendal is a psychiatrist, etc).

 

I would agree that rand, rahvin and a few others' access of t'a'r isn't so much "dreaming" as crashing the party, since they're coming in by gateway in physical form. Demandred is the only one that's exhibited anything that might be actual dreaming (and it might not).

 

Lanfear claimed t'a'r, but Moggy thinks it's hers and uses it a lot. Who is "better" is up for debate (and I lean towards lanfear only because Nynaeve, with minimal training, managed to best the "expert" using rules of her own turf. ouch.) The only person that seems less effective in TAR is birgitte, and even then she was able to spy for a good long time.

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Birgitte was limited in what she could do because she lived there as a Hero and wasn't visiting like Nyn, Eggy and Moggy.

 

Perrin is a dreamer too, btw. 

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Yeah, with Nynaeve spankin' Moggy at her own game, it puts a damper on her street cred in regards to Lanfear and her abilities. And Demandred may very well be a Dreamer, who knows. You also don't have to be a channeler to be a Dreamer. The Aiel WO's proved that. At least one of the Dreamers does not channel.

 

Perrin is a Dreamer, if by way of being a Wolfbrother. He can enter T'A'R anytime he wants to, he just needs to sleep. Good point lillcheese.

 

If Perrin is one, than you know there are other male Dreamers. Having the abilitity to channel helps. But it isn't necessary.

 

And btw, you really don't have to be in T'A'R spiritually to have complete control of your surroundings. As long as you know the rules, you can be there physically and still be a badass.

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1. Lanfear's domain is T'A'R. It's been described that she has control over T'A'R that the other forsaken wish they had.

 

2. Moggy never really had a base of operations, as she also operates out of T'A'R. She is is a;most as strong their as Lanfear.

 

3. Rand seized the pool of power at the EoTW and consumed Aginor in flames. It was the first time Rand channeled.

 

4. As far as we know there were no Forsaken based out of Cairhien.

 

5. As far as i know, i don't think Dreamers are relegated to only being women.

 

6. I don't believe Rand is a Dreamer. He's just an extremely strong ta'veren. Because of that, i believe the pattern reveals itself to him, to help guide him in some way, in what he must accomplish.

 

7. None of the Forsaken are Dreamers, IMO. It seems to me that they have to physically enter T'A'R. From what I've read it just seems a logical guess. I know the Male Forsaken aren't. I can't really say about Moggy and Lanfear. Also anyone who can channel and is strong enough to open a gateway, can physically enter T'A'R if they are tought the weaves.

 

I hope that kinda sheds some light on some subjects. However, i could be wrong about things.

 

Some corrections/ modifications.

1. Moggy believes she has at least as much control of TaR as Lanfear but Lanfear is more upfront and proud about her control of dreamscapes.

2. Moggy impersonated a servant in Tanchico for a while (TSR) before she faced off with Nyn and then ended up caught.

So yes, as far as we know, Tanchico was Moggy's physical base of operations.

3.  It wasn't the first time Rand channeled.

4. We don't know where Lanfear (pre-TSR), Asmo (pre-TSR) and Demandred were based. So they could have been there. But there was no apparent Chosen presence in Carhein.

5. The Aiel Wise Ones do express shock at the fact that there seem to be male dreamers - when the Chosen arrive in TaR.

But there's no apparent gender restriction.

6. & 7. Depends on how you define a dreamer. Anybody who can channel can enter Tar, even non-channelers like Bair, Perrin and Slayer can, or others who use ter'angreals. However, very few people seem to be able to exercise the sort of control that Bair, Amys and Egwene can over TaR. Also Egwene's ability to have dream prophesies is very unusual.

 

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Rand's suspected first channeling (moiraine's theory) was on Bela (although I'd argue that it could have been egwenes for entirely the same reason, but rand's fits his PoV better).

 

Asmodean and Lanfear were both traveling across the waste with a merchant caravan (of DOOM!), so one or the other could have been (but wasn't "definitely") in cairhien. Additionally, Lanfear originally told Rand that she was a cairhienian lady (Selene) BUT there was no evidence than anyone in Cairhein knew about it since no one knew who Rand was talking about when he mentioned her.

 

 

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Whether Rand channeled to refresh Bela or not (Moiraine would probably have felt Egwene channeling but anyway), he certainly did channel in the inn where Mat and he were cornered and he blasted out an escape route.

 

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Ok, on all this Dreamworld stuff. Firstly a few distinctions. You've been misusing the word Dreamer. A Dreamer is someone who sees the future in their dreams. What you are speaking of is a Dreamwalker. RJ has stated that these two things are distinctly seperate Talents, and that the ability to enter the place where dreams are is a third.

 

I'll be answering questions under the light of what you meant by dreamer--i.e. someone entering Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

5) are there male dreamers?

 

They exist but are very very rare.

 

6)if so, is Rand a dreamer because he can access T'A'R?

 

No. For the most part his access to TAR is use of gateways--the one exception being if the meeting with Moridin actually took place in TAR (Brandon expressed uncertainty on this). That resulted from the link, and was not a function of the Talent of Dreamwalking.

 

7) also, if there are male dreamers, are all the male forsaken dreamers because they can all access T'A'R?

 

The only stated one in the story is Balthamel/Aran'gar--and he/she is very weak in the dream. It is highly likely that Ishamael/Moridin and Asmodean were, due to their accessing Rand's dreams, but we don't know that for sure--it could for instance have come from a ter'angreal like what Temaile used to torture Amathera. Or it could even be some unknown weave (if a ter'angreal can allow access to the place of dreams, then presumably it can be emulated by a weave).

 

1. Lanfear's domain is T'A'R. It's been described that she has control over T'A'R that the other forsaken wish they had.

 

That's actually not true. Lanfear claimed TAR was her domain, and named herself the Daughter of the Night--but it should be noted that she was the only Forsaken to name herself, and that clearly suggests a degree of hubris. We know for a fact that Moghedian was stronger than Lanfear in the dream, and that others used it freely (every Aes Sedai was trained in TAR--thats hundreds of thousands, if not millions).

 

So in effect she claimed it as her 'domain', but it really wasn't.

 

2. Moggy never really had a base of operations, as she also operates out of T'A'R. She is is a;most as strong their as Lanfear.

 

You're correct about Moghedian being a bit of a nomad, but it should be noted that she was stronger in the dream than Lanfear. Birgitte (who's probably the foremost expert on TAR we have access to since it was her home) stated this, and that the only reason Moghedian never challanged Lanfear was because Lanfear was stronger in the Power.

 

3. Rand seized the pool of power at the EoTW and consumed Aginor in flames. It was the first time Rand channeled.

 

Incorrect. Aginor killed himself by drawing on too much power trying to take control of the Eye from Rand. Also it was not the first time Rand channeled. He first channeled in healing Bela of her tiredness when they are fleeing the Two Rivers. His second was making the boom swing on Bayle Domon's boat stopping the Trolloc from killing him. His third was calling lightning in the Four Kings. This was probably his fourth--though there is a very decent argument that Rand channeled to pull the Eye of the World to them when fleeing the Worm.

 

IIRC (might be wrong) demandred has spied in t'a'r (on elayne?) which I would assume involved some degree of "using" the environment ("teleporting around") rather than physical sneakiness. Which would make him a Dreamer (albeit a weaker one). And MOST of the male forsaken got punched out early on in the series or weren't inclined that way.

 

No, Demandred (and Rahvin) are the male Forsaken we know for sure are not Dreamerwalkers--they use the power to access the dreamworld. In Demandred's case it is the scene where Demandred was spying in TAR you mentioned--he was spying on Elayne, and wove a gateway to step out of the Dream.

 

Perrin is a dreamer too, btw.  

 

Technically he is not. Wolfbrothering is a seperate distinct talent with similar abilities--but neither the futuretelling nor TAR-walking aspects work the same.

 

Whether Rand channeled to refresh Bela or not (Moiraine would probably have felt Egwene channeling but anyway), he certainly did channel in the inn where Mat and he were cornered and he blasted out an escape route.

 

Moiraine was correct, he did channel to heal Bela, and we see his Power-Aquisition Response with his loopy reaction to the Whitecloaks in Baerlon. The PAR for the incident on the boat was when he climes the mast. The one for the Four Kings was his sickness, and the one for the Eye was his forgetfulness.

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Did Brandon make an error in the scaling of the Choden Kal?  It is obvious that it had to be destroyed, otherwise Last Battle would be a slaughter instead of a hectic war. 

 

With Callandor Rand said he was easily holding the power of 100 males.

 

Yet with CK, he thought he could take on 100-200 damane. 

 

Then Rand PoV, the amount of power he was holding with the CK when cleansing saidin is equivalent to when he created Dragonmount.    At best LTT when overreaching was probably holding 5-10 times his OP strength imo. 

 

CK from the titanic amount used at the cleansing, probably equal at least 10,000 men, if not a 100,000.  And to destroy the world, at least that of 100,000 men, if not 1 million.  In the real world, it would the power of nuclear bombs...1 shot kill would a gamma ray burst or the sun going supernova.

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Perrin is a dreamer too, btw. 

 

And NOT a channeler... though he comes by it through another 'Talent'. It oftentimes is pointed out that nearly anyone can touch the World of Dreams, even if its uninetntional and momentary... which begs the question: Can anyone learn to at least learn to access T'A'R? The presence of Ter'angreal that allows them to do so suggests no, but it would seem logical that they could.

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So, the question is:

Can Perrin be defined as a DREAMWALKER (not a dreamer) as he can enter the world of dreams at will and has some amount of control over the environment?

He does not, apparently, suffer the same lack of control over his appearenec as newbies to TAR do, however we do not see many humans with him to tell us about this in deatil. I however would imagine that control over TAR works differently for males than females.

 

Or is being a wolf brother enough to give you ACCESS to the world of dreams, and have some control, but not actually be counted as a DREAMWALKER? As it has been pointed out, practically anybody can enter ("touch upon") the world of dreams.

 

It is a simple question, honestly... :-\

 

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Perrin would pass as a dreamwalker. He does have physical control, ability to move at speed, and enough ability to eavesdrop on the Chosen and also to play hide-and-seek with Slayer.

He breaks up the trap that caught Faile, etc. So yes, Perrin is a dreamwalker.

We don't know for sure if this is true for all wolfbrothers since we've never seen Elyas in TaR. For what it's worth, Moiraine (who doesn't necessarily know much about it) also believes Perrin is protected in his dreams.

 

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I seem to recall Perrin having foretelling "dreams" as well when he wanders around TAR. He looks up in the sky and there's a window that shows him stuff going on with our other characters.  I suppose that could be some sort of early manifestation of the color ta'veren vision, but I'm not sure.  I never pay enough attention to the timelines so I'm not sure if Perrin's windows were present or future visions.

 

Or I could be misremembering.  And here I thought I'd be all sharp with this stuff since I just did a reread.

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Both Perrin and Slayer appear to be restricted in their movement as compared to full Dreamwalkers... They can take a step and walk a mile, but nothing we've seen has indicated they can find things with 'need', or zoom across the world by thinking of their destination.  Granted, nothing we know says they CAN'T do this, they may simply not know how.  Yes, Perrin was shown windows in TAR of events that appeared to be the future.  This is different than Egwene's dreams.  Egwene's 'true' dreams are actual dreams that she actually can feel are true (or just dreams), not TAR manifestations like Perrin randomly has access to on occasion.

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I seem to recall Perrin having foretelling "dreams" as well when he wanders around TAR. He looks up in the sky and there's a window that shows him stuff going on with our other characters.  I suppose that could be some sort of early manifestation of the color ta'veren vision, but I'm not sure.  I never pay enough attention to the timelines so I'm not sure if Perrin's windows were present or future visions.

 

Or I could be misremembering.  And here I thought I'd be all sharp with this stuff since I just did a reread.

 

Those visions aren't foretellings, but glimmers of the present in the pattern. Him being a wolfbrother doesn't make him a dreamer or a dreamwalker. Dreamers foretell, he doesn't do that. Dreamwalkers have complete control and knowledge of T'A'R. He doesn't.

 

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Has anyone seen any of the new wot characters won through the lottery? Those that the winning readers could name personally and possibly even give some background for. I forgot to look for it myself when I read the book, perhaps someone else noticed?

 

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It has been said that all people from Cairhien plays the Game of Houses. IIRC, Talmanes is a Cairhien Lord right? if so, I wonder what kind of game he is playing at, if at all.  I would like to get 1 chapter with Talmanes' POV..what he really thinks of Mat and the Band and their place in the Last battle and possibly in history.

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I always figured Perrins TAR control came from his self control.  He's always been shown to calmly think things through more so than others.  I don't think it comes from the wolf connection at all.

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Cadsuane, in her near-to-three hundread year old state, thinks she might have lived longer than Semirhage. Is there anything solid backing that up? Because I imagine all the Forsaken to be older than that, taking into account their strength and not being bound by an Oath Rod.

 

Well there is the fact that Cadsuane is making assumptions based on the Aes Sedai life span, which she doesn't realise is shortened by the Oaths--by which I mean Cadsuane has a solid reason to think what she thinks, but she's wrong.

 

Thank you. When she said she was probably younger than a lot of Aes Sedai I just wanted Semirhage to rip her face off. I like Cadsuane, but my image of the Forsaken was threatened by her assumptions even though I was sure she was wrong.

Actually she thinks of her as younger because of the fact that her time sealed is presumably seen as some sort of hibernation or sleep and not ageing and gaining knowledge....

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He finds it in the Stone of Tear. Definitely uses it for two key channeling feats in TSR - Portalling to Rhuedean and then finding Asmo, where it gives him a little extra when both are pulling from the CK Access key.

Rand isn't shown to have it in TDR, which ends just the morning after the Stone falls.

 

 

 

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Perrin is not a Dreamwalker, as Dreamwalker is a title used by Wise Ones. They have not deemed him so therefore he is not. Neither is he a Dreamer as WT has not branded him as such.

 

He certainly has a comparable skill set and abilities and is most likely worthy of those titles.

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