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The thing Moiraine did to get rid of her invisibility illusion's residue in the blight that sounds like what's later called 'Unweaving' in TPoD: it seems she should be well aware of the extreme danger with several important people nearby (the Dragon Reborn and two other ta'veren). Is this just another case of an early bookism, or does she have yet another secret Talent like Avi has?

 

Actually it doesn't sound like an unweaving--it seems to have precisely the same effect, yes, but by description seems very different--Moiraine has already released the weave, for one thing, making unweaving impossible, and she also closes her eyes, something that would be suicidal during an unweaving.

 

One suggestion is some sort of scrub weave--say something very weak woven in spirit that scrubbed the residue away and leaving only a tiny residue of its own that would fade swiftly. Another is that what she did wasn't removing the actual residue as such, but whatever residue it is that Fade's can sense, which may well be something entirely different, for all that the terms are similar (wouldn't be the first time--Delving, for instance, can mean both checking someones health and searching for ores).

 

That being said it's most probably an early bookism of some form--for instance Inverted Light shouldn't really leave a strong residue to begin with.

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Question: Everyone hates on Hinderstap. Why? Is it purely the WTF, left-field, never-to-be-seen-again element to the whole thing? Or is it a certain resemblance to the Zed word?

 

Personally, I found those pages, as the sun went down, to be a fine, almost poetic counterpoint to the night in Tar Valon in TDR, when Mat is assaulted by "footpads".

I loved the slow build of: something's wrong; no, something's really wrong; stop it, Mat, pay attention, something's REALLY wrong; MAT YOU FREAKING IDIOT GET OUT OF THERE!

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Can a man lead in a circle with 1 man and 2 women? I know a woman can lead, but I don't know whether it's a choice or a requirement.

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Can a man lead in a circle with 1 man and 2 women? I know a woman can lead, but I don't know whether it's a choice or a requirement.

 

Yes, Flinn did so at the Cleansing.

 

The rules on who must channel are not entirely clear (or perhaps just not entirely clear to me), but I believe a man has to lead if a man and a woman link, and if there is a circle of 72. There are contradictions in the books. For example Graendal claims that a woman must control a cirle of 2 women and 1 man, and yet Flinn leads such a circle at the Cleansing. The glossaries of Loc and aCoS also claim that a man must lead a mixed circle of less than 13 members, and yet Daigian lead a cirle including the Ashaman Eben Hopwill at the Cleansing. Graendal claims that a man must lead a circle of more than 13, but apparently a woman must lead a cirle with the least amount of men neccessary. So yeah, not very clear. We do know however that there must alway be one more woman than man in a cirle with the exception of cirles of 1 man and 1 woman, 2 men and 1 woman, and 2 men and 2 women.

Edited by Master Ablar
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RJ always referred people to the BWB for the rules:

 

In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link - this is called leading, focusing, or guiding - but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead. Excepting the examples given above, and other circles of thirteen or less, a woman must lead where the minimum number of men are present.
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RJ always referred people to the BWB for the rules:

 

In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link - this is called leading, focusing, or guiding - but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead. Excepting the examples given above, and other circles of thirteen or less, a woman must lead where the minimum number of men are present.

 

Ah, cool thanks.

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Didn't RJ clarify somewhere that Fades (in general, not Shaidar Haran) cannot carry much, (certainly not trollocs or people) with them while shadow travelling?

I always assumed the horse disappearing with Fade in EotW was an early bookism.

If Fades can carry trollocs / humans / horses with them while shadow travelling, a whole lot of strategic implications about the War(s) of the Shadow change.

In the pre-Hawkwing era, when the dreadlords and trollocs invaded Westland in force, they couldn't Travel, or use the Ways (where the wards were still working). There's no way they wouldn't have won otherwise.

Also if fades can carry trollocs, the attack on Algiarin's Manor, attack on the Two Rivers, on Galad-Perrin on the Jehannah Road, the multiple invasion of Borderlands etc, essentially all become unstoppable.

For example, the Fades would just have hopped in behind Rodel's defences with fists of trollocs.

Everyone is assuming the best shadowspawn can do in the way of teleporting in numbers is to 1) use portal stones if they have channelers to work them 2) use the Ways.

If that's wrong, the entire defensive matrix breaks down.

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Question: Everyone hates on Hinderstap. Why? Is it purely the WTF, left-field, never-to-be-seen-again element to the whole thing? Or is it a certain resemblance to the Zed word?

 

Personally, I found those pages, as the sun went down, to be a fine, almost poetic counterpoint to the night in Tar Valon in TDR, when Mat is assaulted by "footpads".

I loved the slow build of: something's wrong; no, something's really wrong; stop it, Mat, pay attention, something's REALLY wrong; MAT YOU FREAKING IDIOT GET OUT OF THERE!

 

I think that most of the dislike comes from the fact it had pretty much nothing to do with anything. The plot advancement (what little there is) could have been done in a more realistic (for the Wheel of Time, anyway) and relevant manner.

 

Personally I didn't hate it, it was fun enough to read, just not much point in it.

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I had a response to Sephie's question typed up before, but I'm trying to curttail my rants about negative feelings toward the last two books lately and just let it go. Barid Bel Medar said it in a kinder, more consise way. The first read it was somewhat tolerable, but when it became apparent later that the whole ordeal was pretty much pointless, I began loathing it.

 

Also, did the dice game Mat won in Hinderstap make any sense whatsoever to anybody?

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I have a question about something that took place in LoC. Alannna bonds Rand against his will and then later makes the comment to Verin that she wasn't able to compel him using the bond. Has the reason as to why she couldn't compel him been revealed yet? Did I just miss it?

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I have a question about something that took place in LoC. Alannna bonds Rand against his will and then later makes the comment to Verin that she wasn't able to compel him using the bond. Has the reason as to why she couldn't compel him been revealed yet? Did I just miss it?

 

AS can not use the "spirit" weave to compel a strong male channeler like she could a normal warder she is bonded to. The Ashaman bond however allows for compulsion with a thought to those they have bonded. No channeling required. That is the "extra bit" in the weave that Logain could do without.

Edited by Suttree
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Question: Everyone hates on Hinderstap. Why? Is it purely the WTF, left-field, never-to-be-seen-again element to the whole thing? Or is it a certain resemblance to the Zed word?

 

Personally, I found those pages, as the sun went down, to be a fine, almost poetic counterpoint to the night in Tar Valon in TDR, when Mat is assaulted by "footpads".

I loved the slow build of: something's wrong; no, something's really wrong; stop it, Mat, pay attention, something's REALLY wrong; MAT YOU FREAKING IDIOT GET OUT OF THERE!

 

I think that most of the dislike comes from the fact it had pretty much nothing to do with anything. The plot advancement (what little there is) could have been done in a more realistic (for the Wheel of Time, anyway) and relevant manner.

 

Personally I didn't hate it, it was fun enough to read, just not much point in it.

 

True, no necessity to it and although the evidence is clear already, I think it was a pretty intense way of describing just how much influence the dark one is gaining over the world. The seals aren't fully broken yet and he is able to affect it this much already, that is pretty signifant.

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I thought BS said there is a section in Hinderstrap that was written by Rj and he found it amusing that anyone points to it and says it is him just adding filler?

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I thought BS said there is a section in Hinderstrap that was written by Rj and he found it amusing that anyone points to it and says it is him just adding filler?

 

Nope, no quote like that. Hinderstrap and all of its zombie b-movie kitsch was 100% BS.

Edited by Suttree
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I have a question about something that took place in LoC. Alannna bonds Rand against his will and then later makes the comment to Verin that she wasn't able to compel him using the bond. Has the reason as to why she couldn't compel him been revealed yet? Did I just miss it?

AS can not use the "spirit" weave to compel a strong male channeler like she could a normal warder she is bonded to. The Ashaman bond however allows for compulsion with a thought to those they have bonded. No channeling required. That is the "extra bit" in the weave that Logain could do without.

I'm not sure, I don't recall the issue ever coming up again. I always thought it was because Rand was holding saidin at the time, and Alanna mistook it to mean further attempts would be pointless.

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I had a response to Sephie's question typed up before, but I'm trying to curttail my rants about negative feelings toward the last two books lately and just let it go. Barid Bel Medar said it in a kinder, more consise way. The first read it was somewhat tolerable, but when it became apparent later that the whole ordeal was pretty much pointless, I began loathing it.

 

Also, did the dice game Mat won in Hinderstap make any sense whatsoever to anybody?

 

The dice game was the only way to get supplies. They didn't want to take gold for the supplies, but they'd make a bet of it. (Seems silly until you consider human nature, they thought they would get to keep their cake and eat it too, an analogy which makes 0 sense to me, who the hell keeps cake and doesn't eat it)

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I have a question about something that took place in LoC. Alannna bonds Rand against his will and then later makes the comment to Verin that she wasn't able to compel him using the bond. Has the reason as to why she couldn't compel him been revealed yet? Did I just miss it?

AS can not use the "spirit" weave to compel a strong male channeler like she could a normal warder she is bonded to. The Ashaman bond however allows for compulsion with a thought to those they have bonded. No channeling required. That is the "extra bit" in the weave that Logain could do without.

I'm not sure, I don't recall the issue ever coming up again. I always thought it was because Rand was holding saidin at the time, and Alanna mistook it to mean further attempts would be pointless.

 

Nope. I think Sutt pointed out a quote discussing this recently too.

 

The Reds discuss altering the bond so the compelling is built in, and doesn't take the extra bit of weaving.

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Also, did the dice game Mat won in Hinderstap make any sense whatsoever to anybody?

 

The dice game was the only way to get supplies. They didn't want to take gold for the supplies, but they'd make a bet of it. (Seems silly until you consider human nature, they thought they would get to keep their cake and eat it too, an analogy which makes 0 sense to me, who the hell keeps cake and doesn't eat it)

Yeah, that's not what I meant. I did reread that chapter again just now, and there were only two dice combinations that were explained: a one and two that was an instant loss, and a pair of fours that were an instant win. It's just that as a reader, the climactic moment hits when the mayor tosses the dice and they roll to a stop and you still have no idea whether it was good or bad without it being explained to you.

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Also, did the dice game Mat won in Hinderstap make any sense whatsoever to anybody?

 

The dice game was the only way to get supplies. They didn't want to take gold for the supplies, but they'd make a bet of it. (Seems silly until you consider human nature, they thought they would get to keep their cake and eat it too, an analogy which makes 0 sense to me, who the hell keeps cake and doesn't eat it)

Yeah, that's not what I meant. I did reread that chapter again just now, and there were only two dice combinations that were explained: a one and two that was an instant loss, and a pair of fours that were an instant win. It's just that as a reader, the climactic moment hits when the mayor tosses the dice and they roll to a stop and you still have no idea whether it was good or bad without it being explained to you.

 

OH! Lol, sorry.

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Rereading ToM: Return to Bandar Eban

 

First page of the chapter: Blah blah blah rand & min, plus two maidins arrive back in bandar eban via gateway into an ally.

 

Exposition goes on to say that one of the maidins appears nervous for the lack of posse, or whatnot, and is then "reassured" by Rand, by means of placing his hand on her shoulder.

 

 

...Now who the f-bombing f-bomb thought that just fit right in on the list of how to reassure a nervous Aiel - by touching them while armed?

 

Gee, that just mixes perfectly with everything we know about the norms of Aiel society... :dry:

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I have a question about something that took place in LoC. Alannna bonds Rand against his will and then later makes the comment to Verin that she wasn't able to compel him using the bond. Has the reason as to why she couldn't compel him been revealed yet? Did I just miss it?

AS can not use the "spirit" weave to compel a strong male channeler like she could a normal warder she is bonded to. The Ashaman bond however allows for compulsion with a thought to those they have bonded. No channeling required. That is the "extra bit" in the weave that Logain could do without.

I'm not sure, I don't recall the issue ever coming up again. I always thought it was because Rand was holding saidin at the time, and Alanna mistook it to mean further attempts would be pointless.

 

RJ

A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.
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Mat, good catch. You should post it in the errata thread.

 

Vardarmus, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but this seems to suggest a sister could still sometimes coerce her channeling warder:

A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

 

EDIT:

Ninja'ed by Suttree. But it seems we're reading this quote in completely different ways. Me, I think the problem would be his ability to protect himself by embracing saidin. After all, 'a hard time' isn't the same as 'can't'.

Edited by yoniy0
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I would think that the core of the issue is that the Warder bond was never designed to compel 100% obedience to orders, probably because Warders need to be free to think and react as each situation requires where an AS's safety is concerned. For whatever reason, the built in part of the bond (or the after-the-fact weave that allows an Aes Sedai to use the bond to command her Warder's obedience when she deems it necessary - I've never been clear on which it is) that allows situational commanding of the bonded man does not work on channelers, IMO probably because the possibility was not foreseen that channelers would be bonded in that fashion. Who wants to be bonded to a man who will die shortly, after all?

 

And as to whether she could coerce him or not, RJ leaves unspoken the possibility of AS redesigning the bond to account for a channeler or of an "AS" using Compulsion to achieve the same effect. That may be all he means by using hard instead of can't.

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