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Logain's 'new' strength...

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I'm at work right now without any real access so forgive me if I get this bit wrong...

 

When Nyn 'healed' Siuan and Leanne's stilling, they came back at a fraction of thier original power... it would be safe to assume that Logain also came back at a significantly reduced strength, yes?

 

But at the manor house in KoD when the trollocs attack, he displays a significant amount of power, not terribly below Rand/LTT... if this is a 'fraction' of what he was BEFORE the gentling, just how powerful was he?

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Logain has the same strength as he had before.

 

The difference lies in the Healing. To get the full strength back, one must be Healed bby someone of the opposite gender. Thus, Logain gets his full strength, just as the Aes Sedai stilled by Rand, because they were Healed by a man.

 

Siuan and Leane however, Healed by someone of the same gender, and got only a part of their original strength.

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Logain has the same strength as he had before.

 

The difference lies in the Healing. To get the full strength back, one must be Healed bby someone of the opposite gender. Thus, Logain gets his full strength, just as the Aes Sedai stilled by Rand, because they were Healed by a man.

 

Siuan and Leane however, Healed by someone of the same gender, and got only a part of their original strength.

 

Is that speculation or did that come from somewhere? I would think it would be the opposite if that were the case...

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I can't remember if it was said or not, but that is the opinion that i was of as well!

 

Does that really make sense? Women understand how Saidar works and are essentially clueless about Saidin and vice-versa. Remember Moraine's comment about a bird teaching a fish to fly?

 

As I said, it seems as if it would be exactly the opposite to me. If that is the way its been explained, I'd love to know where and what the rational was behind it... and can Siaun and Leanne get 're-healed' by a male channeler to regain their former ability?

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That is the genereal opinoin because when Flinn heals the stilled Aes Sedai from Dumai's wells they are returned to their full strength.

 

Obvisouly when Nyna heals Logain hes returned to full strength but when she heals Leane n Suiane they are not.

 

Its not exactly stated anywhere, but it is apparant based on evidence in the text. Its like you dont have a compass, but the sun is rising so u know where east is

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Robert Jordan commented on this somewhere.

The comment was something like this (do not remember exact quote):

Healed by same half of Source (saidar channeler Healed by another saidar channeler, saidin channeler Healed by another saidin channeler), partial strength; Healed by opposite half of Source (saidar channeler Healed by a saidin channeler, saidin channeler Healed by a saidar channeler), full strength.

 

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Logain has the same strength as he had before.

 

The difference lies in the Healing. To get the full strength back, one must be Healed bby someone of the opposite gender. Thus, Logain gets his full strength, just as the Aes Sedai stilled by Rand, because they were Healed by a man.

 

Siuan and Leane however, Healed by someone of the same gender, and got only a part of their original strength.

 

Is that speculation or did that come from somewhere? I would think it would be the opposite if that were the case...

 

It is confirmed, both by books and RJ himself.

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Does that really make sense? Women understand how Saidar works and are essentially clueless about Saidin and vice-versa. Remember Moraine's comment about a bird teaching a fish to fly?

 

As I said, it seems as if it would be exactly the opposite to me. If that is the way its been explained, I'd love to know where and what the rational was behind it... and can Siaun and Leanne get 're-healed' by a male channeler to regain their former ability?

 

Moiraine also said that the best works in the age of legends were done when both Saidar and Saidan were combined. And i don't believe they could be 're-healed'. Is it mentioned somewhere that once something is 'healed' no matter what the outcome, it can't be re-done? I'm not sure if its in this series or another...

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Yeah, what would happen if they were stilled again, then healed by a Male? Or could a male just try to heal them again while they were still able to chanel? Hmmmm....Ponder ponder ponder

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I think that if they were stilled again, and rehealed by a male it would restore them to the strength they are at now, not to their original strength. And i doubt a male could heal OVER the healing already their.

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since its not a physical 'wound' and just them being cut off from accessing the source, my personal opinion is that if siuan were to be stilled by women again that she could be restored to her full potential by a male channeller....of course she's not going to risk trying, but i'm basing this off of what Nynaeve said upon healing her- that something was "missing"

 

Nyn didnt 'partially heal' the missing part- its just.....not there.

 

in typing this, i also suspect that it might even be possible for a male channeler to finish what nyn started in healing siuan if they were skilled enough at probing and trying. flynn seems the likely candidate to pull this off.

 

......anything short of death should be possible to heal, right :)

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Does that really make sense? Women understand how Saidar works and are essentially clueless about Saidin and vice-versa. Remember Moraine's comment about a bird teaching a fish to fly?

 

As I said, it seems as if it would be exactly the opposite to me. If that is the way its been explained, I'd love to know where and what the rational was behind it... and can Siaun and Leanne get 're-healed' by a male channeler to regain their former ability?

 

Moiraine also said that the best works in the age of legends were done when both Saidar and Saidan were combined. And i don't believe they could be 're-healed'. Is it mentioned somewhere that once something is 'healed' no matter what the outcome, it can't be re-done? I'm not sure if its in this series or another...

 

Right - except that the Healing of someone who couldn't channel one by someone who could channel the other wouldn't be a collaboration, any more than someone under anesthetic is collaborating with the doctor performing open-heart surgery.

 

I'm perfectly willing to accept that this is the case, especially if it has been comfirmed by RJ himself. I just can't think of a single logical explanation as to why it would be so... birds teaching fish to fly and whatnot.

 

Let's say that you and I are trying to translate something from French to English. We both speak perfect English, but you also speak French and I on the other hand speak German... what possible explanation would their be for my ability to completely translate the text and you only being able to translate a fraction of it, when I don't speak the language in question and you do?

 

Not to step on any Yellow Ajah's toes here, but it would make more sense in my opinion if they simply said that Nynaeve wasn't as good at Healing as the Asha'man in question (gasp!), or at least not as good as Healing stilling in particular. But then, that wouldn't explain Logain...

 

My head hurts.  ???

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I see your point ImpBo, but I still disagree...

 

Some random theories now...

 

Even if your connected to different parts of the TS, your still connected to it in the same way.(I presume since Nyn could heal Siuan and Leane the same as she healed Logain) The connection could be both Saidar and Saidan. Lets say the connection is both Saidar and Saidan. The WT cut off the saidar side of the connection, causing the connection to stop, even though the saidan connection is still their. Since Siuan relies on the Saidar side to actually get the power, it was healed weaker. However since Logain relies on the Saidan side, it doesn't matter if the Saidar side is weaker since it's connected again... (Make sense? I've been up all night/day due to exams!)

 

I just had a thought while typing, perhaps the flaw is in the way they were stilled? Logain and Rands Aes Sedai were stilled by other genders (Logain by the WT, and were the AS stilled accidentally by Rand?) They then get healed by that gender. However Siuan and Leane were stilled by their own gender and this could be the problem?

 

Just thinking out loud now though.

 

 

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I don't see what's hard to accept about a saidar user needing to be healed by saidin and vice versa in order to be healed from severing at full strength. It seems pretty implicit and the most parsimonious answer given what the books have told us. They are each just half of the True Source, they both drive the Wheel, and the most wonderful things done with the power use both halves of the Source.

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I don't see what's hard to accept about a saidar user needing to be healed by saidin and vice versa in order to be healed from severing at full strength. It seems pretty implicit and the most parsimonious answer given what the books have told us. They are each just half of the True Source, they both drive the Wheel, and the most wonderful things done with the power use both halves of the Source.

Again, the healing of stilling does not involve both sides of the power. Just one - the one being used to do the healing. Until their ability to channel is healed, they are contributing nothing to the effort. So the 'wonderful things done using both halves of the Source' have absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

 

The two powers are indeed opposite sides of the same coin in a manner of speaking... but that's the entire point. It makes absolutely no sense for someone intimately familiar with every aspect of the female half of the source to be only partially able to restore its use, while someone completely foreign and ignorant of the female half can restore its use completely... especially given the intimacy, complexity and unorthodox nature of the weaves used.

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i believe it has less to do with knowledge, and more about the nature of the balance of the source. kinda like men needing a woman in a circle to form one, where as women dont need a man. this being to make up for men being generally stronger than women in the power. also, dont forget that a large part of the meanings in the series are about the interactions and viewpoints of the sexes.

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I just had a thought while typing, perhaps the flaw is in the way they were stilled? Logain and Rands Aes Sedai were stilled by other genders (Logain by the WT, and were the AS stilled accidentally by Rand?) They then get healed by that gender. However Siuan and Leane were stilled by their own gender and this could be the problem?

 

Just thinking out loud now though.

 

I really, REALLY thought you were on to something... until you reminded me about Siuan and Leane. Grrrr...

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Perhaps in the affect of healing you can only heal what you know.  And while they only use one or the other side of the power the ability to use the power is from a "weave" of both.  On that assumption when you still or gentle all they have been doing is severing half of the "weave" allowing them to access the power.  So in order to truly be removed from the power you would have to stilled/Gentled with both sides of the power.  This would fit the balance principle in that neither side would have absolute power on the finality of a cut from the source.  Forcing both side to work together to cut and heal. 

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Like it's been said it is a matter of balance. Saidar and Saidin are different and are used to heal differently. The way that saidar heals will heal gentling fully for a man and vice versa. Although the saying is "fight fire with fire" you actually fight it with water, the oppisite. Although they are oppisites they can both be used to quench the other.

 

 

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I always thought that it was what nyn healed them with that reduced their strength. I figured fire/earth would fully restore a man and water/air a women.

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she used all five powers. that was what really set the rebel yellows going trying to break her block

She used all 5 to do the healing but fire and spirit to bridge the gap. I just figured it took water and spirit to fully bring back a women power.

 

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I still hold that the the difference is that saidin needs to bridge the gap for a woman and saidar for a man. It fits in with the series' gender issues quite nicely, but if one needs to work out WHY it needs to be this way, it's simple. Saidin and saidar are like oil and water. They don't mix. Rand thinks on this as he cleanses the source, he forces saidin through saidar and the weaves can't mix together. My guess is that bridging a saidar gap with saidin means that saidar can cross the gap without interference from a saidar bridge, that saidar flowing through a saidar bridge would make things wonky, and vice versa.

 

It very likely isn't a difference in how one was severed. Leanne, Siuane, and Logain were all severed by a saidar cut. As for fire and spirit vs maybe water and spirit (or air and spirit) for a woman, I don't think there's much evidence for that just yet. Even if Flinn were to somehow comment on using air or water instead of what Nynaeve used, I don't think it would be conclusive, as saidin works differently than saidin, so it would be comparing apples and oranges.

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