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Shaidar Haran (Full Spoilers).


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I really hope in ToM we will finally find out wtf this thing is. for sure that is. i reaaly want to know what his purpose is, his origin, and what he does in his spare time ;D i can see him at a beach sunbathing can't you guys? ;D but seriously. wtf is this thing???

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I need to go back and re-read SH encounters, but am I right in remembering that when he cuts someone off from the Power it is different than being shielded, being stilled and being burnt out? It's definately more akin to burning out, but I have this niggling thing that I spotted some kind of difference in the description.

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I need to go back and re-read SH encounters, but am I right in remembering that when he cuts someone off from the Power it is different than being shielded, being stilled and being burnt out? It's definately more akin to burning out, but I have this niggling thing that I spotted some kind of difference in the description.

 

I think it's akin to the guardian in FM.. you can sense it, but there's nothing you can do with it.

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I need to go back and re-read SH encounters, but am I right in remembering that when he cuts someone off from the Power it is different than being shielded, being stilled and being burnt out? It's definately more akin to burning out, but I have this niggling thing that I spotted some kind of difference in the description.

 

I think it's akin to the guardian in FM.. you can sense it, but there's nothing you can do with it.

IIRC, I think the Forsaken can't even sense the source when blocked. Therefore, it's different than a shield, burning out, or stilling in the sense that the OP is just "gone."

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I need to go back and re-read SH encounters, but am I right in remembering that when he cuts someone off from the Power it is different than being shielded, being stilled and being burnt out? It's definately more akin to burning out, but I have this niggling thing that I spotted some kind of difference in the description.

 

I think it's akin to the guardian in FM.. you can sense it, but there's nothing you can do with it.

IIRC, I think the Forsaken can't even sense the source when blocked. Therefore, it's different than a shield, burning out, or stilling in the sense that the OP is just "gone."

 

So if the OP is just 'gone' when SH is around... that has really interesting implications for how the world can 'forget' channeling (as it must for it to come round to a world very similar to our own). Naturally, as the TP must also be forgotten this implies to me a tie between Light and Dark here (or at some future/past/whatever point) - where the DO is sealed away i.e. no TP but the OP is also 'gone' because of something akin to the SH effect.

 

EDIT:

I presume that SH can also block the TP - otherwise that would negate the effects, so perhaps SH could manage the 'forgetting the Powers' all on his own.

 

Oooh SH was introduced in LoC i.e. Book 6... could this be the small thing never discussed but that is repeatedly mentioned? i.e. SH's 'Power gone' effect? Perhaps i'm getting slightly off topic....

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I need to go back and re-read SH encounters, but am I right in remembering that when he cuts someone off from the Power it is different than being shielded, being stilled and being burnt out? It's definately more akin to burning out, but I have this niggling thing that I spotted some kind of difference in the description.

 

I think it's akin to the guardian in FM.. you can sense it, but there's nothing you can do with it.

IIRC, I think the Forsaken can't even sense the source when blocked. Therefore, it's different than a shield, burning out, or stilling in the sense that the OP is just "gone."

 

So if the OP is just 'gone' when SH is around... that has really interesting implications for how the world can 'forget' channeling (as it must for it to come round to a world very similar to our own). Naturally, as the TP must also be forgotten this implies to me a tie between Light and Dark here (or at some future/past/whatever point) - where the DO is sealed away i.e. no TP but the OP is also 'gone' because of something akin to the SH effect.

 

EDIT:

I presume that SH can also block the TP - otherwise that would negate the effects, so perhaps SH could manage the 'forgetting the Powers' all on his own.

 

Oooh SH was introduced in LoC i.e. Book 6... could this be the small thing never discussed but that is repeatedly mentioned? i.e. SH's 'Power gone' effect? Perhaps i'm getting slightly off topic....

*end of Sword of Truth series spoilers*

The only thing I don't like about The Wheel eventually turning into our age is The Sword of Truth series ended with TG trying to show how our world came about from his created world. I don't want TWoT having a similar ending in the sense the events of the Last Battle/WoT series cause the next age to be "our" age. I guess I don't want two modern series I've read ending with such a similar theme.

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I really hope in ToM we will finally find out wtf this thing is. for sure that is. i reaaly want to know what his purpose is, his origin, and what he does in his spare time ;D i can see him at a beach sunbathing can't you guys? ;D but seriously. wtf is this thing???

 

That's one of the better questions that's been asked.  I don't think any of us have any real idea what Shadar Haran really is, or what its full capabilities are.

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That's one of the better questions that's been asked.  I don't think any of us have any real idea what Shadar Haran really is, or what its full capabilities are.

 

While I don't know any more than any of you, I believe he is tightly tied to Moridin - perhaps even a part of him in some way (in place of the flaming eyes?). Both Moridin and SH appeared in the story at around the same time, they operate with perfect coordination (e.g. see book 7 the scene with Moghedien when her little chat with SH smoothly continues with Moridin) yet are never together in the same place, nor refer to each other.

Even the Semirhage scene was representative of this. SH threatens Semi and later Rand grabs the TP (presumably through Moridin).

 

 

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That's one of the better questions that's been asked.  I don't think any of us have any real idea what Shadar Haran really is, or what its full capabilities are.

 

While I don't know any more than any of you, I believe he is tightly tied to Moridin - perhaps even a part of him in some way (in place of the flaming eyes?). Both Moridin and SH appeared in the story at around the same time, they operate with perfect coordination (e.g. see book 7 the scene with Moghedien when her little chat with SH smoothly continues with Moridin) yet are never together in the same place, nor refer to each other.

Even the Semirhage scene was representative of this. SH threatens Semi and later Rand grabs the TP (presumably through Moridin).

 

 

 

 

Let the Moridin = SH theories begin? Lol, but that is an interesting point though.. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it, but it does bring up some interesting questions. Personally, I think the eyes of fire was just a dramatization of words.. nothing more.

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It's a bit late for the Moridin=SH theories to begin, we've been shooting them down for years.

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That's one of the better questions that's been asked.  I don't think any of us have any real idea what Shadar Haran really is, or what its full capabilities are.

 

While I don't know any more than any of you, I believe he is tightly tied to Moridin - perhaps even a part of him in some way (in place of the flaming eyes?). Both Moridin and SH appeared in the story at around the same time, they operate with perfect coordination (e.g. see book 7 the scene with Moghedien when her little chat with SH smoothly continues with Moridin) yet are never together in the same place, nor refer to each other.

Even the Semirhage scene was representative of this. SH threatens Semi and later Rand grabs the TP (presumably through Moridin).

 

 

 

I have to disagree with this.  Moridin is the DO's most faithful follower... the most trusted and most powerful.  The problem is the DO cannot physically control humans to do his bidding... he can entice them, threaten them, etc... but ultimately, the person makes the decision on their own.

 

SH is shadowspawn, which are tightly tied to the DO and the forsaken who are marked... obviously SH cannot be controlled by anyone except the DO, but the reason he is separate from Moridin is because he is completely compelled by the DO.

 

A couple times we see contradicting actions from SH or Moridin... the semirage rescue for example, or Moridin's obessesion with keeping Rand alive. What I really want to see though is a forsaken happy hour where both are present.  I don't believe we've seen both together in the same room?

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A couple times we see contradicting actions from SH or Moridin... the semirage rescue for example, or Moridin's obessesion with keeping Rand alive. What I really want to see though is a forsaken happy hour where both are present.  I don't believe we've seen both together in the same room?

 

Also, the standing order to not kill Rand that was in existence at the start of TDR.  SH shows up at the Fortress of Light, and orders Carridin to find and kill Rand - yesterday.  Definite cross-purposes there.

 

If we accept that SH has been an ongoing project of the DO for a long time now, then we did see SH and Ba'alzamon together at the DF Social at the beginning of TGH.  There was a Myrrdrall present who exhibited both anger and agitation at the mention and display of the pictures of Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  Normal Fades are emotionless.

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A couple times we see contradicting actions from SH or Moridin... the semirage rescue for example, or Moridin's obessesion with keeping Rand alive. What I really want to see though is a forsaken happy hour where both are present.  I don't believe we've seen both together in the same room?

 

Also, the standing order to not kill Rand that was in existence at the start of TDR.  SH shows up at the Fortress of Light, and orders Carridin to find and kill Rand - yesterday.  Definite cross-purposes there.

Not necessarily. SH may have given the order knowing Carridin would fail, but that his attempt would fulfill some other purpose.

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Not necessarily. SH may have given the order knowing Carridin would fail, but that his attempt would fulfill some other purpose.

 

I suppose that's possible.  But what other purpose?

 

From what we can tell, Carridin accomplished nothing except to get every member of his own family killed for his failure.  And, then was killed himself at Moridin's order once Moridin found out what he'd been trying to do.  Drowned in brandy in Mili Skane's basement.  That cheated SH of its promised "fun."

 

"... And when there is no one of your blood living except yourself, if he still lives, I will take you to Shayol Ghul itself."  It smiled.  "You will be years in the dying, human.  Do you understand me, now?"
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A couple times we see contradicting actions from SH or Moridin... the semirage rescue for example, or Moridin's obessesion with keeping Rand alive. What I really want to see though is a forsaken happy hour where both are present.  I don't believe we've seen both together in the same room?

 

I don't see any contradiction between Moridin's and SH's actions in the Semirhage's rescue. Do you mean what Moridin said in the prologue about not attempting to rescue her? He meant that for her two allies, not as a general restriction. He needed her to collar Rand since he could not very well do it himself... And in answer, yes - we have never seen them together - the tGH prologue scene has a normal myrdraal, and anyway involved Ishmael, not Moridin - I argue that SH only appeared after Ishmael was killed (and reincarnated in a new body).

 

Also, the standing order to not kill Rand that was in existence at the start of TDR.  SH shows up at the Fortress of Light, and orders Carridin to find and kill Rand - yesterday.  Definite cross-purposes there.

 

Assuming it's the same Shaidar Haran, of course... Just because it could have been a prototype version does not mean they are the same. I believe this is a red herring - they know Carridin can't accomplish that. Besides, I don't remember an order not to kill Rand in tDR, though Bel'al and his allies did try to avoid that since they wanted him to first get Callandor, then kill him. Ishmael and Bel'al certainly made their best effort once he had the sword.

 

If we accept that SH has been an ongoing project of the DO for a long time now, then we did see SH and Ba'alzamon together at the DF Social at the beginning of TGH.  There was a Myrrdrall present who exhibited both anger and agitation at the mention and display of the pictures of Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  Normal Fades are emotionless.

 

No, normal fades don't smile. The myrdraal there was a normal one. They can show anger and fear (see Fain's torture and intimidation of the myrdraal that he controlled, in the same book).

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Since Moridin is Ba'alzamon is Ishameal, we have seen them both in the same place at the same time.

 

An organism responding to torture is not indicative of the normal state of that organism.  The Myrrdraal at the DF Social wasn't being tortured.

 

Assuming it's the same Shaidar Haran, of course... Just because it could have been a prototype version does not mean they are the same. I believe this is a red herring - they know Carridin can't accomplish that. Besides, I don't remember an order not to kill Rand in tDR, though Bel'al and his allies did try to avoid that since they wanted him to first get Callandor, then kill him. Ishmael and Bel'al certainly made their best effort once he had the sword.

 

That's what makes it a conflict between them, though.

 

SH issues his order to Carridin in the Prologue.  Ba'alzamon needed Rand to remain alive until he took Callandor.  Given how Callandor was trapped, the only way the Forsaken could ever get their hands on it was to kill Rand only after he had taken it up.  He doesn't do that until the end of the book.  SH was waaaaay out in front with its kill order.

 

 

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It's still not the same Shaidar Haran. Yes, he was in the room with the "prototype" or "SH .5" but not the current Shaidar Haran. While it's easy to say that Ishy was transmigrated to Moridin.. there's no way to say the same thing happened for this myrddral.

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It's still not the same Shaidar Haran. Yes, he was in the room with the "prototype" or "SH .5" but not the current Shaidar Haran. While it's easy to say that Ishy was transmigrated to Moridin.. there's no way to say the same thing happened for this myrddral.

 

I disagree with your first comment.  The SH in tDR who visits Carridin is the same SH we know and love now.  The difference, IMO, is that SH gets stronger as the DO's prison weakens.  SH from tDR just isn't as strong or capable at that point in the story.  Whatever SH in tDR said/did is the will of the DO, just as whatever SH says/does now is the DO's will.

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It's still not the same Shaidar Haran. Yes, he was in the room with the "prototype" or "SH .5" but not the current Shaidar Haran. While it's easy to say that Ishy was transmigrated to Moridin.. there's no way to say the same thing happened for this myrddral.

 

I disagree with your first comment.  The SH in tDR who visits Carridin is the same SH we know and love now.  The difference, IMO, is that SH gets stronger as the DO's prison weakens.  SH from tDR just isn't as strong or capable at that point in the story.  Whatever SH in tDR said/did is the will of the DO, just as whatever SH says/does now is the DO's will.

 

RJ said something like.. "Shaidar Haran .5... the Dark One doesn't always get it right!" which is indicative to me that this is not the same creature.

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I always thought (for some reason) that SH was using the TP to shield the forsaken ... the difference being, when you are shielded with the TP, you don't even sense the OP. It's like you were never able to channel to begin with. I guess I thought he had something to do with the TP given the reaction of Graendal's birds and some verbiage related to feelings of menace and darkness or something.

 

I'll have to look it up. I remember something about it with Moghedien as well when she was imprisoned in the vacuole.

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Way I see it, only two people in randland can take down shaidar haran, Perrin and Fain.  SH can simply shield rand to make him useless in battle, (we saw in tGS just how useless he is without powers), but he won't be able to turn off Fain or perrin's abilities.  I think that Fain will be the one who ultimately puts the kibosh on superfade, nothing against perrin, but fain pwns fades, plus he has the whole, ancient hatred against the DO, since SH is clearly the DOs avatar, it makes sense that Fain takes him out. 

Imagine a 3-way standoff, Rand, Moridin, and SH, Rand is shielded and is about to be taken by moridin to be turned by 13-13, when fain pops in, pwns superfade, rand lashes out as soon as he regains his abilities, frying fain and commencing the second Rand-ishy chase scene.

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What could Perrin possibly do to stop SH?  I don't see how Perrin's wolf link gives him enough power to battle the alleged "avatar" of the DO.

 

I'm going with Fain too.

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What could Perrin possibly do to stop SH?  I don't see how Perrin's wolf link gives him enough power to battle the alleged "avatar" of the DO.

 

I'm going with Fain too.

 

I'm looking at it more as the most powerful people who cannot channel.  Perrin has heightened senses, and loses his shit whenever he sees a fade.  plus he has the whole TAR connection, just felt if anyone on the light side could take out SH it would be perrin.  I agree that Fain will most likely end up killing SH, he's the only one with nearly enough power to take him out, (if no one can channel around him).

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couldent someone with a sword just cut his head off?

  Probably...  But I think that as long as the DO exists and his power grows, SH can exist.  If what has been discussed is true (that the SH who visited Carridin back in tDR and the current SH are actually different Myrrdraal- I don't know if I buy it... but if) then the DO can just take/create a new Myrrdraal body that can be his Avatar.

 

If, on the other hand, SH really is the Hand of the Dark (ie. the DO's avatar as many have speculated) than I can't see him dying so easily.  I guess we just don't know enough about him yet to know who can kill him (or if he can be killed).

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