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Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)


JenniferL
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Having said that, I still don't think LTT was ever bound to the Horn.

 

I think you're right LTT wasn't tied to the horn because he's tied to the pattern as the Dragon...

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The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

/quote]

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I'm probably going to get shouted down for this comment (I really need to stop smoking before I come on this forum) but I was under the impression that LTT was never bound to the Horn. I mean, there are Heroes and then there's the Dragon Reborn. Though if LTT is bound to the Horn then that could be a way to let Rand die and then bring him back in the same way that Birgitte was reborn. Plus, that way Rand would eventually forget the terrible things he's done recently.

 

Having said that, I still don't think LTT was ever bound to the Horn.

 

Hmm. Maybe. Arthur however seemed to know Rand on Falme so I figured dragon was one of those heroes.

 

And not sure would Rand want to rip himself out of pattern as Birgitte was(atleast I'm under impression Birgitte is not hero of horn anymore). Plus who would do that to Rand anyway?

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My first thought about Hinderstrap was that maybe it was another of Fain's traps... The bubbles of evil tend to happen and then go away, rather than loop. Plus it seems like a trap since they said anyone who stays past sunset and dies will be stuck in the loop as well.

 

This could probably be classified as a loony theory, and I'm not sure where we last saw Fain or what he's up to. I know its been a while... just checked the KoD recap - looks like the last we saw him was in Winter's Heart in Far Madding, so yeah... a while.

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I havn't put it together or given it a lot of thought, but Hinderstrap reminded me of fain and Shadar Logoth a lot as well.  The way the people acted at night, killing each other in a paranoid craze.  The thing about the people coming out at night also reminded me of the spirits in Shadar Logoth only coming out at night, but hiding during the day.

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I think a lot of the perceived changes in Matt can be attributed to his marriage. It's a big step and his nature is rebelling against it. Having a person in his life he cares for more than himself as well as putting their well being before his own is a huge change for Matt. His "verbose" comments, I think, are his way of covering nervousness and him trying to convince himself of his own points.

 

I can't say I have a strong recollection of Talmanes's character (my last reading of the series was almost 4 years ago), but this "change" could simply be a sign of his familiarity with Matt. Talmanes's wiki entry points out that he is more social with nobles. So Matt's new nobility may be the common ground that allowed him to loosen up around him. The wiki entry also states he jests with a non noble after getting to know him. So though he hasn't shown his humor to Matt prior to this, there is evidence that jesting is in his nature to some degree.

 

To me I found the changes in Matt consistent with the large changes in his life. I thought him trying to hard to hold onto the "old Matt" was entirely appropriate.

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Just a quick note on an idea that occurred to me, regarding Mat's story-arc.

 

This is more speculation on how he's going to beat the Aelfinn/Eelfinn and rescue Moiraine.

 

Now, throughout the books - virtually every time the game "Snakes and Foxes" is mentioned - it is always followed by how you can't win without cheating. This, obviously, led me to the conclusion that Mat is going to find some fiendish way to trick the Snakes and Foxes into getting Moiraine back. But... little Olver is always certain that he can win by sticking to the rules.

 

So.

 

We know that Olver isn't Gaidal Cain, because RJ himself has said so. This means that Olver has some role to play in the coming books, or else so much effort would not have been put into his characterisation.

 

This slim and tenuous line of logic leads me to the idea that Mat's going to find some method of "winning" this particular game, only he'll do it without cheating. Now, as you can see, this is all based entirely on the fact that it seems almost too obvious that it's going to go as we expect it to. I just wanted to know what everyone else thought of this particular idea!

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This slim and tenuous line of logic leads me to the idea that Mat's going to find some method of "winning" this particular game, only he'll do it without cheating. Now, as you can see, this is all based entirely on the fact that it seems almost too obvious that it's going to go as we expect it to. I just wanted to know what everyone else thought of this particular idea!

 

I think from the beginning they will be cheating. The 'Finns prohibit certain items that the trio are certain to bring/use (a.k.a. fire, music, iron) See: "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind." Birgitte also acknowledged to Perrin that you have to break the rules to beat them.

 

So I think it's pretty obvious they will be breaking the rules any way they can. I don't have a problem with that, morally. ;-) The question is how exactly will they smuggle those things in, or what will they be--a device for making light, musical instrument, and iron.

 

Aludra's matches seem an obvious choice for the 'device for making light.' Thom has his harp of course, but that seems like a pretty obvious object...

 

'Finns: Do you have any musical instruments?

Guys: Nope, not a one.

'Finns: But, isn't that a harp?

Guys: Oh, er. Um. Well. Where did THAT come from?

'Finns: *breathe*

 

The iron could be any number of things I guess. Most weapons like knives or swords would be steel, which apparently worked the first time Mat went through the doorway. Which begs the question, do the 'Finns have a way of knowing if someone is lying about possession of such things, or do they just take the person at their word?

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This slim and tenuous line of logic leads me to the idea that Mat's going to find some method of "winning" this particular game, only he'll do it without cheating. Now, as you can see, this is all based entirely on the fact that it seems almost too obvious that it's going to go as we expect it to. I just wanted to know what everyone else thought of this particular idea!

 

I think from the beginning they will be cheating. The 'Finns prohibit certain items that the trio are certain to bring/use (a.k.a. fire, music, iron) See: "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind." Birgitte also acknowledged to Perrin that you have to break the rules to beat them.

 

So I think it's pretty obvious they will be breaking the rules any way they can. I don't have a problem with that, morally. ;-) The question is how exactly will they smuggle those things in, or what will they be--a device for making light, musical instrument, and iron.

 

Aludra's matches seem an obvious choice for the 'device for making light.' Thom has his harp of course, but that seems like a pretty obvious object...

 

'Finns: Do you have any musical instruments?

Guys: Nope, not a one.

'Finns: But, isn't that a harp?

Guys: Oh, er. Um. Well. Where did THAT come from?

'Finns: *breathe*

 

The iron could be any number of things I guess. Most weapons like knives or swords would be steel, which apparently worked the first time Mat went through the doorway. Which begs the question, do the 'Finns have a way of knowing if someone is lying about possession of such things, or do they just take the person at their word?

Ha, you're probably right.

 

The inclusion of Thom was an obvious indicator of this - as is the concept of matchsticks, which as we know is a new one to the Randlanders.

 

Still, I can't help but wonder at Olver's purpose to this whole story. And one thing we know about him is his love of Snakes and Foxes...

 

But anyway, I'm dying to find out how this story ends.

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I think Oliver is going to somehow manage to be the third person, whether he sneaks in or somehow manages to talk Mat and Thom into taking him.  He does have more knowledge about the Snakes and Foxes from playing the game and from talking with Birgitte (other than Mat of course who has actually been there).  I also think his innocence is going to be a key factor (ie thinking he should be able to win the game by following the rules).  Nothing to support this at all, only an inkling.

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I think Oliver is going to somehow manage to be the third person, whether he sneaks in or somehow manages to talk Mat and Thom into taking him.  He does have more knowledge about the Snakes and Foxes from playing the game and from talking with Birgitte (other than Mat of course who has actually been there).  I also think his innocence is going to be a key factor (ie thinking he should be able to win the game by following the rules).  Nothing to support this at all, only an inkling.

Unfortunately the letter to Thom said three men would save her, and mat is at most 12 years old (I think) an in no way could be confused for a man.

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I think Oliver is going to somehow manage to be the third person, whether he sneaks in or somehow manages to talk Mat and Thom into taking him.  He does have more knowledge about the Snakes and Foxes from playing the game and from talking with Birgitte (other than Mat of course who has actually been there).  I also think his innocence is going to be a key factor (ie thinking he should be able to win the game by following the rules).  Nothing to support this at all, only an inkling.

Unfortunately the letter to Thom said three men would save her, and mat is at most 12 years old (I think) an in no way could be confused for a man.

 

I think Noal will be the Third. He hasn't exactly done much since he came into the books. He's been like an alternate-Thom in my mind. Ghenji would provide a valid reason for Noal having been brought into the series.

 

Having said that, I have a feeling that Olver will get in too. There's no way Mat will take him in. He's far too paternal towards Olver and he knows exactly how dangerous the Finns can be. I think Olver will sneak in after them. He's always been written as a bit wild and impetuous (running with the street kids, horse racing) and he'll probably be of the opinion that he knows enough of Snakes and Foxes to be able to help.

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MEN...  I suppose I should take that literally instead of just meaning someone who is male, but i'm still convinced that Oliver will somehow worm his way into the tower.

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That would tie in with the cheating bit. Mat, Noal and Thom will try to play by the rules. But Olver is the one that makes them cheating, by bringing the stuff in. Or something.

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That would tie in with the cheating bit. Mat, Noal and Thom will try to play by the rules. But Olver is the one that makes them cheating, by bringing the stuff in. Or something.

I like this idea.

 

It would certainly explain the relevance of both Olver and Noal.

 

And it would be JUST like Moiraine to ensure her rescue by omitting all mention of Olver. Mat would NEVER allow Olver to come anywhere near the Tower. So, by not including Olver's name, she's allowing for chance - or ta'veren alteration of chance - to being Olver along, who will be needed for the rescue.

 

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like the direction this is heading in. It just explains a lot.

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Mat did not evolve.  He suddenly became Lightsong from Warbreaker.  Don't get me wrong, Sanderson did an amazing job.  I absolutely loved the book and I thought he did a great job with the majority of characters.  Mat has been my favorite POV in the series for the last several books.  I found it painful to see his POV reduced to forced, ultra cheesy "wit".  It's like Sanderson discarded everything that was the character and replaced it with a knock-knock joke.  Mat is a scamp, not a wit.

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Mat did not evolve.  He suddenly became Lightsong from Warbreaker.  Don't get me wrong, Sanderson did an amazing job.  I absolutely loved the book and I thought he did a great job with the majority of characters.  Mat has been my favorite POV in the series for the last several books.  I found it painful to see his POV reduced to forced, ultra cheesy "wit".  It's like Sanderson discarded everything that was the character and replaced it with a knock-knock joke.  Mat is a scamp, not a wit.

I thought mats character was really well done, and mat has always been pretty witty. We just do not see this in play because Mat isnt arround people who he can react too like he did previously, his humour was best with people who get indignant.

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To those who are afraid of Mat's POV:

 

I think it is because we did not get to focus alot on his character this book. KoD was very much his. Brandon Sanderson has admitted that tGS will be focused on two main characters. Quite obvious that it was Egwene and Rand.

 

On to other stuff. I have mixed feelings on whether Olver goes in. Moiraine says quite explicitly that it must be three to enter and save her. no more no less. Do I think he could be the third somehow......no. Mainly because Noal has to do something. Olver I'm sure will get into trouble somehow while they are in there. possibly a skirmish. like a defend the outside while the guys are in rescuing.

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Verin says  Mat could have been the most powerful of the Tarveron's but he has no ability to use the OP but I suppose nor does Perrin.  Oh well gee is his wife going to cap his butt when she catches up with him.  I like to see that and have Perrin and Rand right there next to him when it happens.  ;D :D

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To those who are afraid of Mat's POV:

 

I think it is because we did not get to focus alot on his character this book. KoD was very much his. Brandon Sanderson has admitted that tGS will be focused on two main characters. Quite obvious that it was Egwene and Rand.

 

On to other stuff. I have mixed feelings on whether Olver goes in. Moiraine says quite explicitly that it must be three to enter and save her. no more no less. Do I think he could be the third somehow......no. Mainly because Noal has to do something. Olver I'm sure will get into trouble somehow while they are in there. possibly a skirmish. like a defend the outside while the guys are in rescuing.

 

I have to agree with the line of thinking that Noal is the third and not Olver, i don't think Mat and the others would be likely to even let him go with them and it seems that Noal is there for that reason.

 

Also, i quite liked Mat's scenes throughout the book. I agree that he seemed a bit different from what we had previously seen as was Talamnes(sp?), but i was under the impression that Robert Jordan had written at least some amount of the book(s) before he passed away so i'd be interested to see how much of Mat's part was actually written by Brandon Sanderson.

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That would be hilarious to see Mat chastised by his wife in front of his old friends since he does go on and on about how he isn't going to change his ways. Tuon and Mat are a perfect match. Two stubborn and very different personalities.

 

I really really want to see The Band in battle soon. Since it didnt happen in tGS. I am thinking something will be going outside the Tower of Ghenji while they are inside.

 

I have high hopes for Brandon. I really believe he can write well enough so that he doesnt changes their characters. 

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