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Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)


JenniferL
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Did anyone else think that Mat's character was off?  I found him to be too responsible, too loquacious, too much tongue-in-cheek humor, and not as whiney as in past books.  Or is he just growing up?

 

A lot of people thought this. It's a big debating point as to weather BS got him wrong or if being married is changing him.

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i think it may be a little of both, there is no doubt that his time with tuon has changed him, and now that they are apart he is half in denial about the whole thing and half overwhelmed with worry about her.

 

also, he cant be continually denying responsibility for the band and his command, there would be no character growth. his relationship with talemanes is simply that of two men slowly getting to know each other and understand each others humour.

 

the disguises plan put me off at first but i had to say that i was laughing out loud by the end, it is exactly the ridiculous thing that mat would do and get away with

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I was too anxious to get to the end of the book to read & laugh at the disguises.

 

I think it *was* out of character, but in the normal sense where people sometimes do things that are out of character for them.

 

He'd just been taught a lesson about walking into an unknown situation without any plan.  He's never before NEEDED a plan, his luck has always gotten him out of his problems.  Well, so the zombies freaked him out.  It's not surprising that he went overboard with trying to be sneaky and careful.

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Did anyone notice the huge plothole though?. When he entered Hinderstap?

 

He entered the town with 5 soldiers, 3 he sent off to join with the Aes Sedai, and the other two he took with him after that we never heard about the 3 soldiers he sent off to join the Aes Sedai again. And he seemingly didn't miss them afterwards or even notice that they had disappeared. Other than that I really loved the Hinderstap story arc ^^ And Verins return to the story! (and sudden exit) really took my by surprise!

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I found myself really enjoying Talamane's sense of humor in TGS. I really liked when mat thought. "How could I have ever thought Talamanes had no sense of humor, he just keeps it on the inside". Or something like it...

 

I think Matt will end up having to go to Fortuona after He, Noal, and Thom rescue Moraine from the tower. He may end up giving up his eye for her safe return. Once they go to Fortuona, Moraine will try to convince her that collaring people has to stop, and make a very convincing argument of it... I think Rand will seek out Matt to lead his armies, and Matt will turn him down for support of his wife. Rand will give up control of the still free lands so the Senchan can restore order in exchange for Matts support and the outlawing of leashing people who can channel. Rand will then kneel to the crystal throne.

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One thing that is bugging me is the cannons.  Going to have to be an awful lot of raw materials and bell founders in Andor.  Seems that TG is getting very close, an Cannons are going to take a good amount time to build, let alone test, train with and provision.

 

 

 

That is were Elayne comes in with her finding all of those new raw materials in her estate from KoD, plus all of the materials from Andor in general. That point makes me now wonder if that is Andor's major role in TG. The materials from the whole realm of hers can be brought via gateway to werever Mat/Aludra have set-up shop. (just a guess however)

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Personally, Mat's storyline was my least favorite of the book.  One is for the aforementioned "Mat didn't feel right", which has already been discussed, so I do not need to dwell on that further.

 

The second is that I hated Hinderstrap.  The assumption is that Hinderstrap is another one of the DO's Bubbles of Evil (or at least his touch).  The book did not mention any other possible reason, and since the town is likely never to be revisited again, I believe the reader is meant to make that assumption.

 

I never liked the "Bubbles of Evil" mechanism.  There is too much order and design to them.  For instance, the Saldean who turns into a swarm of beetles in KoD.  There is too much of a strong conscious design to the soldier's demise.  It makes for graphic scenes, but think about it... how much direct control did the DO have to cause a man's insides to change (or be infested with) beetles and eat him from the inside out?  If the DO has *that* much control, why not have it occur to Mat or Perrin, or have something more drastic occur that will take out a whole army instead?

 

Compare that "bubble" to the bubble where Faile/Perrin/Galina feel the ripples in reality in KoD.  This bubble makes more sense, as it is just a general "touch" the DO is exerting.  It has no design or pattern, and it seems much more in-line with the DO's restrained ability in his weakening prison.  He can cause a general effect, but not pinpoint a particular individual, nor cause some graphic-but-well-designed evil to occur.

 

So Hinderstrap is an ultimate example of the first type of bubble.  One showing the DO having immense amount of power/control to cause such an event with such design, yet not just using that power to wipe out his true enemies.  It is just there for graphic imagery and a good read, and I HATE plot devices like that.

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I dont think Matt will need the Horn any longer... We see that some of the heroes of legend have been reborn, and are going to be fighting at the last battle. How can you call someones soul/essence from their new body in order to fight for you? Will it leave Olver, etc as empty shells when it is sounded? If not, how can you split someones soul/essence into two forms at once? I think that all the heroes will be revealed as reborn, and the horn will be useless... Maybe it called them to be reborn.... Not as immortal ghosts to do the horn sounder's bidding... If they were recalled as an immortal army, why bother with a living army... Who can defeat ghosts?

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I dont think Matt will need the Horn any longer... We see that some of the heroes of legend have been reborn, and are going to be fighting at the last battle. How can you call someones soul/essence from their new body in order to fight for you? Will it leave Olver, etc as empty shells when it is sounded? If not, how can you split someones soul/essence into two forms at once? I think that all the heroes will be revealed as reborn, and the horn will be useless... Maybe it called them to be reborn.... Not as immortal ghosts to do the horn sounder's bidding... If they were recalled as an immortal army, why bother with a living army... Who can defeat ghosts?

 

This make absolutely no sense based on what has already happened and what we have learned through RJ answers. First off, in TGH, we see the heroes come out and fight for Rand. If your explanation was correct, then Rand would have become an empty shell, as well as any of the other characters that may be heroes (we don't know if they are and at this point do not have any indication, save birgette). Second, if they are reborn, how will they fight. They will be what, between one and two years old? Are we gonna have an infant Hawkwing come and lead the armies as Mat's co-general?

 

Here is what happens. The heroes that are in TAR will manifest when the horn in sounded. The ones reborn will not and will stay in their reborn body with no knowledge of who they were, as a normal human would. As for the fighting, we don't know exactly how it works, but in TGH we see that their fight is tied to how Rand did. Thus, they prolly can kill, though it seems they cannot be killed (but can be prevented from advancing). This is what we know so far.

 

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Personally, Mat's storyline was my least favorite of the book.  One is for the aforementioned "Mat didn't feel right", which has already been discussed, so I do not need to dwell on that further.

 

The second is that I hated Hinderstrap.  The assumption is that Hinderstrap is another one of the DO's Bubbles of Evil (or at least his touch).  The book did not mention any other possible reason, and since the town is likely never to be revisited again, I believe the reader is meant to make that assumption.

 

I never liked the "Bubbles of Evil" mechanism.  There is too much order and design to them.  For instance, the Saldean who turns into a swarm of beetles in KoD.  There is too much of a strong conscious design to the soldier's demise.  It makes for graphic scenes, but think about it... how much direct control did the DO have to cause a man's insides to change (or be infested with) beetles and eat him from the inside out?  If the DO has *that* much control, why not have it occur to Mat or Perrin, or have something more drastic occur that will take out a whole army instead?

 

Compare that "bubble" to the bubble where Faile/Perrin/Galina feel the ripples in reality in KoD.  This bubble makes more sense, as it is just a general "touch" the DO is exerting.  It has no design or pattern, and it seems much more in-line with the DO's restrained ability in his weakening prison.  He can cause a general effect, but not pinpoint a particular individual, nor cause some graphic-but-well-designed evil to occur.

 

So Hinderstrap is an ultimate example of the first type of bubble.  One showing the DO having immense amount of power/control to cause such an event with such design, yet not just using that power to wipe out his true enemies.  It is just there for graphic imagery and a good read, and I HATE plot devices like that.

 

I believe you have the wrong impression of how the bubbles of evil work. The Dark one doesn't Directly control the nature of the bubbles of evil. Neither does he control where and when they hit. They are *bubbles* floating along the pattern hitting the world at completely random times. What the bubbles of evil do and who they affect are random. But as the dark one gets more strenght the fabrik of the pattern is becoming more and more unstable while at the same time more *bubbles* are created. the weakning of the pattern and the increasing strenght of the dark one is causing more bubbles to form and affect the world. The hinderstrap village is explain quite well. A bubble of evil affected the world. But due to the severity of its impact the pattern is trying to *fix* itself causing the city to be stuck in a loop as it is unable to fix itself due to the passive influence of the dark one..

 

To sum it up. You argue that the bubbles of evil are an representation of the dark ones direct influence of the world. Where as by my understanding the bubbles of evil are more a passive effect of the dark ones power.. Like lightning during a lightning storm. Completely random and outside the thunderclouds control. :P

 

Also as a sidenote. I believe it is mentioned seveal times that Ta'veren attracts the bubble of evil. And who knows Maybe being Ta'veren protects from the bubbles of evil in a way as well? as they are *strong threads* in the pattern the likelyhood that they will be directly infleunced (as in burst into flame or a swarm of bugs) is low.

 

Thats just my five cents :)

 

- Nikmi

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all those times Nyn was right there and could have healed her before leaving ebou dar

 

Probably just as well she didn't, because then Setalle wouldn't have been restored to her full strength.

 

OOT: I wonder if Siuan or Leane would like to be Stilled again and then Healed again by a man, to regain full strength.

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all those times Nyn was right there and could have healed her before leaving ebou dar

 

Probably just as well she didn't, because then Setalle wouldn't have been restored to her full strength.

 

OOT: I wonder if Siuan or Leane would like to be Stilled again and then Healed again by a man, to regain full strength.

 

 

I dont think that that particular discrepency will come to the attentions of the characters. Not until after TG at least.

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all those times Nyn was right there and could have healed her before leaving ebou dar

 

Probably just as well she didn't, because then Setalle wouldn't have been restored to her full strength.

 

OOT: I wonder if Siuan or Leane would like to be Stilled again and then Healed again by a man, to regain full strength.

 

 

I dont think that that particular discrepency will come to the attentions of the characters. Not until after TG at least.

 

Anyone else suspect that women can heal men better, and men can heal women better? Logain seems to have retained his strength after healing.... Maybe if a man were to heal a woman, she would retain hers...

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all those times Nyn was right there and could have healed her before leaving ebou dar

 

Probably just as well she didn't, because then Setalle wouldn't have been restored to her full strength.

 

OOT: I wonder if Siuan or Leane would like to be Stilled again and then Healed again by a man, to regain full strength.

 

 

I dont think that that particular discrepency will come to the attentions of the characters. Not until after TG at least.

 

Anyone else suspect that women can heal men better, and men can heal women better? Logain seems to have retained his strength after healing.... Maybe if a man were to heal a woman, she would retain hers...

 

I'm pretty sure that's a proven fact (that's why I mentioned it above). I believe RJ confirmed it at some point.

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I loved Mat's storyline. I liked how he was glad to be reunited with his Band and couldn't wait to hook up with the rest of his soldiers, Hinderstap, the "background story," the Dragons, and Verin.

 

Talmanes was awesome. I think either Brandon or Jordan (whoever it was) got it right that Talmanes isn't always sober...it's just that he's always laughing at the world internally. Gotta love Mat and Talmanes' (and Mandevwin's) repertoire.

 

I wonder if Verin gave a letter to Perrin also as Mat noticed she had a few.

 

With the Seanchan now having Aes Sedai who can Travel, Mat's Dragons will be the only advantage Rand's forces will have over the Seanchan. Not sure how fast he'd be able to manufacture large quantities of them though.

 

Hinderstap was basically the Dark One's touch turning pulling the plug on that village and the Pattern rebooting it. I feel sorry for them as they can't even escape through suicide.

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I loved Mat's storyline. I liked how he was glad to be reunited with his Band and couldn't wait to hook up with the rest of his soldiers, Hinderstap, the "background story," the Dragons, and Verin.

 

Talmanes was awesome. I think either Brandon or Jordan (whoever it was) got it right that Talmanes isn't always sober...it's just that he's always laughing at the world internally. Gotta love Mat and Talmanes' (and Mandevwin's) repertoire.

 

I wonder if Verin gave a letter to Perrin also as Mat noticed she had a few.

 

With the Seanchan now having Aes Sedai who can Travel, Mat's Dragons will be the only advantage Rand's forces will have over the Seanchan. Not sure how fast he'd be able to manufacture large quantities of them though.

 

Hinderstap was basically the Dark One's touch turning pulling the plug on that village and the Pattern rebooting it. I feel sorry for them as they can't even escape through suicide.

 

The dragons aren't the only advantage.... He also has the crossbow crank. Not to mention the fact that he is trying to improve further on the cranks...

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Am I the only one who thinks Hinderstap was NOT a bubble of evil but a result of the pattern unraveling?  It seems more akin to rooms being rearranged or ghosts walking around than to a pocket full of evil bursting open.  It seems to fit better, when a bubble pops there is a small burst and and the inside of the bubble meets the outside world for a brief time but then it dissipates.  It does not keep reoccurring in the same spot over and over again.

 

I know its splitting hairs, but its the only idea I have to bring up at the moment.  On a side note, I have to say my favorite Mat part is when he tells the scenario of a man dicing against a woman playing with blank dice.

 

Also as far as the Setalle thing goes, I don't think she can be Healed.  I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.  Before they could be Healed there was really no difference other than to express how it happened (by being physically cut off by another or burned out by over using the power or because of an accident).  I think Setalle was one of those AS who was burned out by a mishap in studying angereals (I don't know why I think that if there were clues in the books or not but that is the assumption I have).  If you remember when Nyn was studying Logan, Leane and Suian, she mentioned being able to "see" where it was "cut" and she reattached those two ends.  I think when a person is burned out, it is like they never had the ability to begin with.  Its completely burned out of them.   

 

Hmmm I wonder if this will ever be clarified in the books or if RJ and BS will leave us wondering?

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Am I the only one who thinks Hinderstap was NOT a bubble of evil but a result of the pattern unraveling?  It seems more akin to rooms being rearranged or ghosts walking around than to a pocket full of evil bursting open.  It seems to fit better, when a bubble pops there is a small burst and and the inside of the bubble meets the outside world for a brief time but then it dissipates.  It does not keep reoccurring in the same spot over and over again.

I'm leaning towards this as well.  First of all, the bubbles are *usually* attracted to ta'veren.  As far as we know, whats going on in Hinderstap seems to have been going on for at least a week or so, enough time for a few travelers/merchants to visit the town and for the mayor to have things somewhat worked out.  Secondly, all of the bubbles of evil we have seen so far have been short events, people spewing out bugs, the man becoming a piece of charcoal, etc.  The longest bubble that we have seen is a few hours long in the rebel Aes Sedai camp where Elayne and Nynaeve join a circle to go around healing people.  This makes me doubt that Hindersnap is in fact a bubble of evil, and is the pattern unraveling, simular to the fuzzy scenes we are now seeing after balefire has been used.

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Also as far as the Setalle thing goes, I don't think she can be Healed.  I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.  Before they could be Healed there was really no difference other than to express how it happened (by being physically cut off by another or burned out by over using the power or because of an accident).  I think Setalle was one of those AS who was burned out by a mishap in studying angereals (I don't know why I think that if there were clues in the books or not but that is the assumption I have).  If you remember when Nyn was studying Logan, Leane and Suian, she mentioned being able to "see" where it was "cut" and she reattached those two ends.  I think when a person is burned out, it is like they never had the ability to begin with.  Its completely burned out of them.   

 

 

I was always under the impression that the terms "severing" vs "burning out" just deliniate the manner in which you've been disconnected.  "Severing" is a punnishment for a horrible crime, where as "burning out" is caused by an accident. I don't think "burning out" is (physically?) any different.

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Also as far as the Setalle thing goes, I don't think she can be Healed.  I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.  Before they could be Healed there was really no difference other than to express how it happened (by being physically cut off by another or burned out by over using the power or because of an accident).  I think Setalle was one of those AS who was burned out by a mishap in studying angereals (I don't know why I think that if there were clues in the books or not but that is the assumption I have).  If you remember when Nyn was studying Logan, Leane and Suian, she mentioned being able to "see" where it was "cut" and she reattached those two ends.  I think when a person is burned out, it is like they never had the ability to begin with.  Its completely burned out of them. 

 

 

 

I was always under the impression that the terms "severing" vs "burning out" just deliniate the manner in which you've been disconnected.  "Severing" is a punnishment for a horrible crime, where as "burning out" is caused by an accident. I don't think "burning out" is (physically?) any different. 

 

I look at it that being burned out is different from stilling. When I think about it, I look at burning as if you burn a string in half, then the two parts are singed and can't be reconeccted. Where as if you are stilled it is just cut in half. I believe that they can both be healed, just the burned pieces would take more patience and work to get it back together where as the stilling is like reconnecting the two halves.

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I liked the blank dice story as well. The one thing that seemed a little off about it is that I sort of saw Talmanes' reactions to the story seemed to me to be more like "Thom" reactions. I think it would have felt a little better if Mat was telling this story him instead.

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I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.
They don't. Severed is the AoL term, as far as we know the only one. Belief that Burning out can't be Healed isn't based on anything. Popular, but unsupported.
I think Setalle was one of those AS who was burned out by a mishap in studying angereals
Martine Janata.

 

First of all, the bubbles are *usually* attracted to ta'veren.
No. They were attracted to the ta'veren to begin with, but they are appearing all over now.
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