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The Fisher King

WoW!! I-JUST-Had THIS Thought About Who Is - Lord Of Chaos- !! I Bet This Is It!

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Have you ever had a thought about something in this series just POP into your head out of nowhere for the very first time out of nowhere? Or even just pop into your head spontaneously? - Even years and years later?

 

I just did. And I have been there since DAY ONE!!! Ill never forget the honor of meeting Mister Rigney when EOTW was in Hardback. (I wonder, how many fans do YOU think were wonderinf if Taim was the LOC way back when EOTW was in Hardback lol???)

 

I now believe that The LOC that is being referred to by the bad guy at the end of book 6 to Demandred IS:

 

Mazrim Taim!!!

 

 

I Will Now Make My Case For Mazrim Taim Being The Lord Of Chaos.

 

 

Please hear my reasons - Thank you. Feedback welcome and appreciated! :):

 

 

It can be argued that 6 is ''Taim's Book'' kinda how 4 is ''Perrin's'' and how 3 really was the emergence of Mat...or how a case can be made that 7 is either ''Cadsuane's'' or ''Sammael's'' book - if you know what I mean.

 

 

When the Bad Guy who is speaking (I still maintain that its the Dark One) to Demandred at the end of Book 6 says those fateful words, it is VERY coincidentally right after Taim has just knelt to the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells.

 

 

The next time we hear those dark words uttered again are by Mazrim Taim himself at the end of The Knife One.

 

 

Coincidence? Not possible. Not even CLOSE to possible, if you know the intricacies of the text as I do - There are literally HUNDREDS of pages that consititute the first 5 books before we get to this point. And I know em.

 

 

Also, Please Consider: Many have postualted - as well as theorized - over the years that DEMANDRED was pulling the strings on Taim and it is to the very *same* DEMANDRED that the Bad Guy says that to at the end of the Book 6??? THAT is on Large-Sized Coincidence if you ask me!!! Now, I have ALWAYS been willing - And alwys WILL be willing - to give serious consideration to the possibility of coincidence, but I staunchly refuse to ever do it when it seems in my mind that coincidence is not a reasonable posibility. I won't give it two thoughts then. I honestly don't now one person here that could handle accepting THAT large of a coincidence without being completely overwhelmed.

 

Finally, over the years alot of people have theorized that the LOC being referred to was either Rand or The Dragon Reborn or The Dark One. Personally, I never bought into any of those 3 being legitemat (can ANYBODY spell that word, lol???) possibilities myself - mainly because no matter where you looked (and I looked EVERYWHERE) you could never find anyone with any evidence to support those three choices.

 

So...In Closing: That is the case I have wished to make that Mazrim Taim is and was the Lord of Chaos being referred to at the end of the book of the same name.

 

In the old days, in court, after trials, when an attorney (lawyers too) felt like he or she had just delivered an amazing closing argument, they would say ''You can lock THAT one up!''

 

Forgive a bit of self-indulgence, or even humoring myself, but I think its pretty fair to say that I just locked THAT one up! (Taim=LOC) ;-)

 

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Lord of Chaos is a title with specific meaning in the text. It's a joke. On the Feast of Fools, queens act as maids, maids as queens, etc.- the most incompetent local person is elected King of Fools, or Lord of Chaos- it's based on ana ctual Medieval and Renaissance tradition. It is the festival Quasimodo longs to join in the Disney film.

 

Rand is a shepherd playing at being King of the World. He is, nearly by definition, the King of fools. Due to the actions of the Shadow, the entire WoT series is the Feast of Fools- a blacksmith leading armies, queens (Alliandre and Morgase) being maids, a shepherd leading nations, etc.

 

Letting the Lord of Chaos rule is a strategy of keeping Rand internally preoccupied with small fires- stamping out haos- until everything flies apart, instead of opposing him directly and giving people something obvious to rally against. It is an anti-War of Power strategy, if you'd like.

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BrainFireBob, I certainly understand what you suggest - the theory that it was meant as a directive to continue to allow Rand to continue to sow his wild oats, as it were, and to divert himself in the chaos  that surrounds him in the world's current unravelled state - as opposed to LOC being meant as a specific title aimed at a specific individual.

 

I apologize but I disagree with you and favor the latter theory - not the former.

 

Just as M'Hael is a title for a real person (Taim) or Warder is a title for a real person (Lan) or Deargon Reborn (Rand) I believe that LOC was derisively meant also as a specific title for a real, individual person. My main possibilities as to who I think it was aimed at are:

 

1 Rand

 

2 The Dragon Reborn

 

3 Moridin

 

4 The Dark One

 

 

5 Mazrim Taim

 

 

I favor Taim because of The Mountain of Evidence I provided.

 

 

 

Fish

 

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Well its definetly possible, his refrence to the Lord Chaos at the end of KoD could indicate this.

 

However I allways felt him mentioning this was more of a clue that Demandred was pulling Taims strings or that Taim was a big enough Darkfriend to have gotten this order.

 

As well, if the Dark One had actually wanted Taim to rule why not actually give the order to Taim personally.

 

You make a good argument though. I'll have to keep an eye out for signs of this Tuesday.

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So, I guess this has something to do with it.

 

The chant from a children's game that speaks of the Lord of Chaos.

 

 

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

 

I am wondering who the blind woman, deaf man and jackdaw fool are. Does this even have to do with events or is this rhyme having to do with something else. The only children's game we have really seen is Snakes and Foxes.... Maybe this has to do with both prophecy AND Snakes and Foxes? Blind woman = Moiraine - who knows what happened to her in Finnland, deaf man = Noal - Compulsion, jackdaw fool = Thom - gleeman, Lord of Chaos = Matt - turns chance on its head thus being the Lord of Chaos?

 

This is just something that popped into my head when I saw that the Lord of Chaos quote came from the chant for a children's game.

 

Also note that the chant comes from the fourth age. This means that it almost certainly has something to do with events in this age.

 

Thoughts on this?

 

 

I still find Fish's point interesting, but I wonder if there is more to it. The main thing I have against it is that the quote comes from the chant of a children's game or was taken for the children's game chant from something said earlier. It is not prophecy that we know of.

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So, I guess this has something to do with it.

 

The chant from a children's game that speaks of the Lord of Chaos.

 

 

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule

 

I never realised the saying came from the 4th age. That could mean we may find out about what "the Lord of Chaos" means.

 

Childrens games and stories usually have a deeper meaning or are cautionary. It could mean sowing chaos blows up in Shai'tans face, or that it really works and we shouldn't let happen again. Not sure about the rest of the Song. "Moon by day and Sun by night could refer to the "Twice dawns the day" prophecy, but that might be stretching it.

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Not here to contribute to the thread just... Fisher King, is there any way you can not randomly capitalise and make really long thread titles please? I understand I'm not a moderator so you don't have to, but I feel it makes the page look untidy, and it therefore makes my OCD reflex kick in :D

 

For example, this thread title could have been 'My thoughts on who the LoC is'. I don't mean to sound nasty or bitchy or anything, just thought I'd share!

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not to mention the entire thread could be summed up as:

 

"I think its Mazrim Taim. I've read the books a lot so it must be him."

 

Yet if it was put like that then Fish wouldnt have been listened to.

 

I myself disagree, I believe "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" means "Let Chaos be your Lord.

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Amayahoshi - No Offense Taken! I can work on scaling back my Thread Titles!

 

Richie Newton - youre a very funny guy, I have to grant that, but, if you would have read the whole post you wouuld have seenthe long list of evidence compiled and therefore not been as quick to dismiss, im betting. Evidence is one thing that, im afradi, can't be argued with.

 

 

Fish

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BrainFireBob, I certainly understand what you suggest - the theory that it was meant as a directive to continue to allow Rand to continue to sow his wild oats, as it were, and to divert himself in the chaos  that surrounds him in the world's current unravelled state - as opposed to LOC being meant as a specific title aimed at a specific individual.

 

I apologize but I disagree with you and favor the latter theory - not the former.

 

Just as M'Hael is a title for a real person (Taim) or Warder is a title for a real person (Lan) or Deargon Reborn (Rand) I believe that LOC was derisively meant also as a specific title for a real, individual person. My main possibilities as to who I think it was aimed at are:

 

1 Rand

 

2 The Dragon Reborn

 

3 Moridin

 

4 The Dark One

 

 

5 Mazrim Taim

 

 

I favor Taim because of The Mountain of Evidence I provided.

 

 

 

Fish

 

 

Let me be more clear.

 

Rand is the LoC because he's the guy ruling everything.

 

Letting him rule is doing things like starting a religious movement to gather those who wish to support him- and turning them into a terror mob.

 

Aidinh his creation of the Asha'man- and making them associated with evil, terror, and fear.

 

You're doing what he wants- in a way that undermines what he intends.

 

It's like when I tickle my wife until she hits me, and then tell her "What? I'm a helper- you might have lost your belly button."

 

Weiramon is a good example, always trying to get Rand's troops killed, fighting Rand's battles at Rand's orders.

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When the Bad Guy who is speaking (I still maintain that its the Dark One) to Demandred at the end of Book 6 says those fateful words, it is VERY coincidentally right after Taim has just knelt to the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells.

 

 

The next time we hear those dark words uttered again are by Mazrim Taim himself at the end of The Knife One.

I agree with Bob here. LOC is just a phrase in these circumstances.

 

I read your point about both instances of LOC being used by Taim, or coincidentily (or not, as you would suggest) around Taim, but here is the problem:

 

The scene at the end of book six with Demandred, ONLY Demandred speaks. He says, "Have I not done well, Great Lord?" And then the Great Lord laughs. No one says Let the Lord of Chaos rule after the Aes Sedai are knelt.

 

Here is what I believe happened, and why: The book is called Lord of Chaos because, at the DO's orders, some severe chaos is orchestrated, namely:

 

1: As a result of Black Ajah influence (Alviarin's on Elaida), Rand is taken hostage and brought back to the white.

2: as Rand is being brought back to the white tower, Taim mysteriously pops back into the battle, and proceeds to tear stuff up.

3: Demandred speaks to the DO and asks if he has been a good boy. Why would he ask if he has done well if it wasn't him who arranged for Taim to go unleash havok?

 

just my thoughts...

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I am wondering who the blind woman, deaf man and jackdaw fool are. Does this even have to do with events or is this rhyme having to do with something else. The only children's game we have really seen is Snakes and Foxes.... Maybe this has to do with both prophecy AND Snakes and Foxes? Blind woman = Moiraine - who knows what happened to her in Finnland, deaf man = Noal - Compulsion, jackdaw fool = Thom - gleeman, Lord of Chaos = Matt - turns chance on its head thus being the Lord of Chaos?

 

 

not trying to be rude but no.

 

Reasons? Just saying "no" will not convince me of anything... It will just make me think you don't even want to discuss any idea besides your own.

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moraines not blind

noal's not deaf

thom's not a fool

 

 

enough said

 

Did you read my post?

 

You CAN NOT say that Moiraine is not blind. We have not seen her since she was shoved through the doorway to Finnland. Noal is deaf to his own mind because he cannot remember what he needs to. Thom is a gleeman thus why I applied the fool part to him.

 

If you can't read the whole thing and respond to each point I make, then please just don't respond at all. I haven't even had to add anything new. I simply repeated everything I just posted to respond to your arguments.

 

 

EDIT: Wow. dude seriously... We are discussing a possibility. There is going to be downright fact and a lot of theory that is supported by the facts. You are really getting on my nerves now.

 

 

EDIT2:

 

Amayahoshi - No Offense Taken! I can work on scaling back my Thread Titles!

 

Richie Newton - youre a very funny guy, I have to grant that, but, if you would have read the whole post you wouuld have seenthe long list of evidence compiled and therefore not been as quick to dismiss, im betting. Evidence is one thing that, im afradi, can't be argued with.

 

 

Fish

 

He obviously does not read through the whole thread. He didn't with mine.

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No, you are completely wrong on what I was saying. I will post it again so that your mind can take it in...

 

 

I am wondering who the blind woman, deaf man and jackdaw fool are. Does this even have to do with events or is this rhyme having to do with something else. The only children's game we have really seen is Snakes and Foxes.... Maybe this has to do with both prophecy AND Snakes and Foxes? Blind woman = Moiraine - who knows what happened to her in Finnland, deaf man = Noal - Compulsion, jackdaw fool = Thom - gleeman, Lord of Chaos = Matt - turns chance on its head thus being the Lord of Chaos?

 

 

If we are discussing the Lord of Chaos, we need to look at the quote it comes from. We need to look at the WHEN - 4th age, the people involved - 4 people, not 1 and the WHERE - it comes from a Children's Game.

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One question I have always had is why would Rand even be considered the Lord of Chaos.  Based on Min's observations, should he not be the Lord of Balance?  What she points out to Caraline Damodred is that the pattern requires balance and Rand's presence actually brings that to the fore.

 

So I don't think Taim is the Lord of Chaos, but I also think that it is not an actual person in the series, just a metaphor for strife.

 

 

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