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Let the Lord of Chaos Rule?


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OK, so I just finished Knife of Dreams for the second time. Now what the frick is up with the ending? These retarded Red Ajah chicks come to bond men who can channel to "protect the world from them." Of course, they don't realize that a) men are safe now, and b) rand already told egwene's ppl that THEY can bond men. As if that weren't enough, Mazrim Taim ALLOWS them to!! And then saying to "let the lord of chaos rule?" What? Is that just meant to confirm that he IS a darkfriend? And does that mean that ALL of his lackies are also darkfriends? Someone please help, I'm sooooo confused.

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Of course Taim is a Darkfriend, as are (most likely) his hand-picked lackeys. The general thought is that Taim's folks (the new Dreadlords) will fight those Asha'man loyal to Logain (and through him, Rand) on a day when (as Elaida Foretells) "The Black Tower will be rent with Blood and Fire and sisters will walk its grounds"

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Guest cwestervelt

That is not a universally accepted theory. There are a few, like me, that do not agree that Taim is a Darkfriend. It is too blatant for RJ's writing style. Except for confirmation from direct PoVs few people who have appeared to be blatant Darkfriend's have been. People don't talk about it, but I would guess that most people thought Sareitha was the one who killed Adeleas. There were all sorts of pointers to her being up to trouble right until Elayne got her and Vandene killed.

 

Many, maybe all, of Taim's inner circle are, but he himself is a dupe. He's blinded by pride and arrogance and that makes him easily susceptible to manipulation. He is also not the only non Darkfriend to try or at least consider killing Rand. If my belief is correct, the end of Knife of Dreams showed Taim to be the inadvertant target of his own attemt at witticism. If you read about the "Feast of Fools" in the BWB you should be able to figure out why.

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I'll grant you that, but I tend to subscribe most times to the phylosophy of Ockham's Razor. Given any set of possible explanations, the simplest is probably the truth. Given the complexity of this story, maybe that's not necessarily the best approach to take, but that's just me...

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i dunno if he is, but me personaly, i have a feeling that he is

 

but i do believe there will be some sort of battle for the black tower, between taim and logain

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The question is: Who in the hell is the Lord of Chaos???

 

If it is the Dark One, then all the thing is plainly stupid. It is clearly not Taim, because he speaks about the Lord as of some being higher than himself. Maybe Moridin? But then, why does the sixth book bear the name 'Lord of Chaos'? Maybe Chaos is the saidin itself. Saidin was often described as storm and chaos... :?

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It's a reference to Rand. It comes from an earlier book where the forsaken are instructed to allow the "Lord of Chaos" to rule, simply put they were not to make an attempt on Rand's life. Obviously they don't listen very well.

 

We're lead to believe that it's a reference to a future nursery rhyme or something like that. There's a quote that goes something like," something something slackjawed fool, let the lord of chaos rule."

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"The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

—chant from a children's game

heard in Great Aravalon,

the Fourth Age"

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I think let the Lord of Chaos rule would also mean, increase chaos. Rand is a great source of chaos, and most of the nations have or are recovering from troubles. Graendal in PoD, thought '...if that message... did not satisfy the Great Lord's command to increase chaos, nothing would, short of balefire. And it would serve her own ends very nicely as well.'

 

Just as Graendal renewed a war between Tarabon and Arad Doman, Taim allowing the bonds will likely have repercussions with Rand. Besides, they will go there taking the Asha'man that were supposed to go to the rebel Aes Sedai, apparently.

 

Adding, it seems to be fashionable to say that, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Semirhage also said it when she'd revealed she'd plunged Seanchan into civil war.

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Well, I think it is a confirmation he's a Darkfriend, and a high-ranking one to have been given the DO's direct order to increase chaos, probably at this moment a candidate to be a Chosen, and that he saw how Pevara's offer could increase chaos and be aligned with the Great Lord's command. All the while not impeding him, since he accepted it. Unless he's really Be'lal, which may not be possible.

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Just as Graendal renewed a war between Tarabon and Arad Doman, Taim allowing the bonds will likely have repercussions with Rand. Besides, they will go there taking the Asha'man that were supposed to go to the rebel Aes Sedai, apparently.

 

The rebel Aes Sedai have already bonded their Asha'man, as we see in the prologue to KoD when one of the Asha'man says something to the effect of "Why should we allow them to bond anym..." before getting knocked out by Taim. Also, all the Asha'man in Taims private group are full fledged Asha'man, and Rand gave the rebel Aes Sedai orders to only bond soldiers and dedicated to keep them away from Taim's cronies.

 

It's interesting to note as well that Taim appears to be allowing the reds to bond Asha'man, a situation which puts the Asha'man in a position of servitude, whereas a few months earlier he had a chance to bond the tower Aes Sedai sent to destroy the black tower but instead allowed Logain to bond them instead. Why would he trade off a position where he is in control of the bonds all the while being able to explain it to Rand to instead put himself in a position of servitude which Rand will more than likely find very irritating to say the least.

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Ahh, ok, didn't remember that.

 

Perhaps there's the answer, Taim won't be losing anyone to the Reds he doesn't want to, but if there's Asha'man potentially loyal to Rand, it might not be bad to get rid of them.

 

Also, along the lines of what Mesaana commanded Alviarin to do in the Tower, to spread hostility within the Black Tower might be achieved by it. Well, I don't know, but Logain seemed to imply in CoT that most of the BT is already more loyal to Taim than Rand, whom most of them have not even seen.

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Guest cwestervelt

The "Lord of Chaos" does not need to refer to a single person. There isn't even anything in the 6th book that actually applies the title to Rand, at least not that I can recall. It was just a common assumption.

 

What I find interesting about Taim's use of the phrase is how the BWB connects the title to the Feast of Fools. This is a 3rd Age holiday, so the term is not something entirely unknown, nor is it a product of another Age. The title is regional though, which can explain how Pevara would not be familiar with it and Taim is. If Taim fits where I see him, then the title applies to him within the context of the Black Tower. His cronies thought his use of it hilarious because he is the "Lord of Chaos" ruling in that location.

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Obviously you have all thought about this far too much, rather the simplest explanation sits in front of you, blatantly exposed,TheDiceAgain... mentioned Ockham's Razor, well, if applied to this case you do not get that he is a darkfriend, but rather, from his actions, a selfish man who is vying for power against the Dragon Reborn and will take the actions nesseccary to do so.

 

The act of having Logain's people be the ones to forcibly take the Aes Sedai while having his people bonded in a much more confined and peacful fashion does not say complete chaos and evil, but rather is strategic in nature, it paints his worst rival(Logain) in the Black Tower in a bad light to all Aes Sedai while making him seem more agreeable, he gets good relations with the tower, weakens Rand's influence by restricting the number bonded into the camp he supports(the rebels) as the bonded ashaman will most likely count towards the limit ordered by Rand, thus limiting any chance of Aes Sedai interference with him and increasing it in the cases of Logain and Rand.

 

The recruiting practices he uses are not nessecarially breeding of Dreadlords, but rather the breeding of loyalty, he makes sure they know more of the power then normal Ashaman, thus giving people reason to want to join him and securing his position as M'Hael, along with making his followers more able to defend him then those guarding Al'Thor or Logain. Thus increasng his stability as a power figure and again decreasing that of his rivals.

 

Then you get the title M'Hael itself, a term he coined, it gives him a title much like the Dragon Reborn, King, Queen, Empress, or Amyrlin Seat, it is an honorific, and the point of it is to make him seem seperate, more important, better, the meaning behind it is even ambritious; 'leader', not Leader of the Black tower, just 'leader', insinuating that he is in charge, should be listened to, is influencial, and knows what he is doing, along with a more subtle meaning; He does not limit his leadership, meaning he could be expecting it to spread, and much like Il Duce in Italy, he plans to do what is nessecary to make it so.

 

Even his jumping to serve the Dragon Reborn reeks of misguided ambition, rather, it is an advantage for him to gain in power, he follows Rand, and probably will until Rand has a decent power base/sphere of influence/kingdom and then plans to use the seeds he is spreading to subvert Rand and take his place, remember, False Dragons were feared not only because they could channel, but also because they were cunning and ambitious enough to always attempt to spread their power base, Taim and Logain were the two biggest cases of this, and Taim did not get the post gentling treatment Logain did, Logain found friendship and trust in other people, he was left with no desire but to want to feel the power again and people attempted to help him cope, Taim, however, did not have a chance for that level of charactor development and rather got free and hid attempting to serve his own needs and has never been at anyones complete mercy, it could be said he refuses too, which, from what has been shown of his charactor seems a more reasonable deduction then that he is a darkfriend, rather, he probably could not be a darkfriend because it would involve complete subservience, but then again ambition led to the Forsaken, although if he were to join the Forsaken before it seemed they had a chance of victory, which it does not currently as all of the fortellings state their defeat and all of the actions follow along with them, rather his position and actions do not place him in a place to betray Rand to the Dark One, but to rather guarentee him a chance at redemption and possibly even power no matter who wins, simply by being a major determining factor, if he betrays Rand he, more then likely, would earn a place among the forsaken higher then that given to even Ishmael, if he serves Rand and does not betray during the war he has options even if Rand fails, those being with loyal men he can simply force their servitude and give a whole Black Tower to the Forsaken and Dark One, again likely gaining him a spot high among the Forsaken, or he can simply subvert Rand after Tarmon Gai'den and use his already well established influence to guarentee a safe transition, in either case he gains, but he gains more from having Rand win then he does having Rand lose, but the speed of the war would only be beneficial for him, if Rand can not stabalise his powerbase before the war Taim could easily cause confusion, which he would be largely safe from with both his gaurdians and his place in the Black Tower(do not assume Taim will do as Logain and fight with his armys, what would he gain from that?) where as both Logain and Rand risk death, it would be a simple matter to arange Logain's death in the insuing war, so from his actions whatever happens aside from betraying Rand and losing, or Rand trusting Logain(which he has seen to making impossible, or at least attempted) he can only gain in the situation, the rewards of his ambition.

 

Fianlly, the 'let the lord of chaos rule' quote at the end of KoD could rather be there for ambiguity, remember, the man beleives he is in prophecy, he beleives he will be influencial in the war, and he lost the spot of Dragon Reborn when Rand came, it could simply be another assumption on his part, he could beleive himself to be the "Lord of Chaos", the disturbing thing is he may be right, remember there is little determining who the Lord of Chaos is, as many have mentioned there are many Chaotic things involved with Saidin, it is Chaotic in nature, Mazrim Taim runs the Black Tower and thus decides who controls the chaotic force and to what level they learn to control it(like a lord dividing land among nobles or a government official determening what areas are run by which government body ;) ), the order handed to the Forsaken does not mean the Dark One is refering to himself, although that is how it seems, the Lord of Chaos ruling could relate to many other people who will destroy Rand's powerbase and thus prevent him from winning, something the Dark One would want more then anything, there are many who it could be, including both Taim and Elaida, both considered lords, both meeting the chaos requirements(Taim with the aforementioned Saidin comment, along with the fact that his moves cause a chaos in areas that is beneficial to him, and Elaida with the White Tower, which is in chaos, she obviously rules it as a lord, beleives herself the "lord of the tower" which is obviously rife with chaos because of the rebelion and splitting of the ajahs), as far as both Semirhage, Greandal, and the other Forsaken's actions in which they have supposedly stated "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" or made reference to it, well that is easily explained, simply look at who has gained from it, the war between Arad Domon and Tarabon does two things, 1. weakens the region allowing easier take over into either Rand's camp or the Seanchan's 2. It destroys unity and armies, thus making it easier to eb defeated in the future, these two things mean that Taim gets a larger power base under Rand, and that the Dark One has a better chance of winning at Tarmon Gaiden. Now I do not remember who controls Arad Domon and Tarabon, the Seanchan or Rand, but that is made to not matter very easily by Semirhage because of what Greandal's favourite mentioned, the plunging of Seanchan into civil war means that they will be less able to fight in the Return, and also makes a union between the Seanchan and Dragonsworn more likely then at any point before, she goes to further that even more by trying to collar him in KoD, if she had succeeded Taim would benefit many times over, he could even attempt to free Rand which would curry favor and make him seem loyal, thus giving him more sway there and probably more power, however if he doesn't he still is in the best position to take control of the Dragonsworn in Rand's stead, however with her failure she still manages to injure Rand which makes him more dependant on others, something that, again, benefits Taim, although it also benefits Logain, which Semirhage's success would not have done, rather it would have further cemented Taim's place by resulting in the permanent removal of Logain. If/when the Dragonsworn and Seanchan merge Taim, again, gains, this time through the gains of Rand, his position means his control/influence increases porportunally with that the Dragon, so any of Rand's gains mean well for Taim and thus give him more ways to overthrow Rand in the future. His 'cronies' are loyal to him, and if he said that he and beleived himself to be the Lord of Chaos it would serve as an inside joke more then anything, because he probably refers to himself as that around them, where as the agreement with Pevra which contains all of the other nice little side effects I mentioned comes with a much better, kind of hidden, effect; it sets the ground for further bonding between Aes Sedai and Asha'man, probably even such things as double bonds(mentioned on this forum) which means that the Aes Sedai will get the short end of the stick, remember, Asha'man retain complete control over those bonded, not just the small bit Aes Sedai have, and thus would have the upper hand in such an exchange, especially if they are mutually bonded(double bonded) or are bonded in equal numbers, which, with the power gap, means two things, specifically, they double their numbers, and could overthrow the White Tower and gain control of it both of which would directly benefit Taim, but not Rand or Logain.

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I forgot the most important thing, you used that fancy little Semirhage quote, but forget that when she is captured she "drops a bomb" well, actually multiple, starting with the mention of Lews Therin being in Rand's head, big, but not overly so, rather the one that should be more important to the reader is the mention she makes of Greandal, specifically that not even she can prevent a man who hears a real voice, a voice of a pst life, can stop his insanity, now the important part of that is not that Rand will go crazy, although that is what she means, but rather what is meant to be infered by that, the 'hidden' statment there, Rand is not alone, there are/have been others in his situation, now this seems more like something that would happen to those influencial in the pattern to me, such as, oh lets see, The Lord of Chaos. Remember that Rand's case was caused not by degrading into insanity, but rather the Dark One's Taint, we assume that the taint causes sickness and insanity, but forget how, remember the effects fo the taint are irresversible, hearing real voices is mentioned as irreversible even by one of the most powerful healers of the Age of Legends, and then add in the fact that Lanfear refers to the tainted dragon as Lews Therin, not Rand, not dragon, but as Lews Therin, when thinking back on this it seems she knew him as Lews Therin, this was before any show of knowledge that he should not have, even before he had control over his power, remember, he was still learning, so it shows Semirhage's excuse to be poor to one who can review the situation, but rather good for those not present(all but Rand). The most viable secondary explination is, of course, that that is the nature of the Taint, it drives men insane in the only known irrevirsible manner, the merging of the mind of a past life, notice that Lews Therin seems rather sane until he attempts to deal with the voice in his head, then he gets depressed and shows signs of insanity, so if that is the nature fo the Taint, then why is Rand seemingly alone in suffering it?

 

That matter is simply explained, and here is how;

 

Logain:

Logain does not suffer because he was cut off before the damage could be done, he did not channel long enough for it to set in, was caught quickly, genteled quickly, and thus was not exposed to constant poisoning, he was later 'reconnected' to Saidin and shortly after that it was cured.

 

Asha'man:

No Asha'man has channeled as long as Rand, and most fall under the catagory of Logain, at least when it comes to time exposed to the Taint, add in that only Taim and Logain come close to Al'Thor's power and thus only they experience the level of exposure.

 

Taim:

Finally we come to an unexplained case, and rather, since there have been no stories form Taim's perspective we do not know how his mind works, what goes on inside it, or his level of infection, however he is probably much farther along the Rand as he was exposed longer, he is as powerful as Rand, and channeled as much, if not more, on a regular basis, it is very possible that he does suffer it, and rather, the voice he has, as they are probably the most influencial being on the pattern in the Asha'man case that means men who can channel, it is probably from another age, remember, the fourth age is in the future, but to the wheel there is no future and no past, they are one and the same, so the voice could be from any age, even the fourth age, this would explain the comment on it being a common phrase even when it is marked as being part of a rhyme from the future, and in that case, if it is from the fourth age, and a reference to the future, it shows two things, those being that the Dark One will succeed with the placement of the Lord of Chaos who will be influential in the future(and existent), if not revered to some degree, both things Taim could be, so it is a simple step to assume that the voice he hears is the Lord of Chaos, much like the voice Rand hears is the Lord Dragon.

 

 

Top that off with a few other nice little things, specifically that the book Lord of Chaos is the one in which Taim makes all of the gains I mentioned and swears to the Lord Dragon, and that the Dark One declares the Lord of Chaos shall be Nae'blis, which also infers that whoever he is he is not the Dark One, and will be influential in the coming war, as he probably was in the War of Shadows, if this is true he will most likely have a role like/counter that of the Dragon Reborn, Nae'blis was considered the top rank in the Dark One's armies, higher then all of the Forsaken, and thus the General, a position countered on the side that served the Creator by the Lord Dragon, Lews Therin, also note other similarities, Taim runs the Black Tower an antithesis in many ways to the White Tower, when Egwene takes her place as Amyrlin of the White Tower, if she does, Rand will effectively be a kind of ruler of the White Tower, at least more so then the Black as Taim is not loyal, Egwene, however, is and she wishes to establish coherence between him and the White Tower, which reflects Lews Therins role in the Age of Legends as a member of the White Tower but not its leader/ruler, further that with the suppossed 'New Dreadlords' the former ones ruled by the Nae'blis, and the use of Darkfriends to meet his goals and server him, also done by the Nae'blis, there is nothing saying that he is now a Darkfriend, but it is more then likely that he will switch sides in the new book and be promoted to Nae'blis, which, if he does change sides would be an expected leap of power because of the sheer importance he would be, he would probably be the best chance that either side has to succeed, and add in that no one said that the Nae'blis serves the Dark One currently, or permenantly for that matter nor that he knows he is Nae'blis, however as of current it is more likely Taim is not currently a darkfriend, but probably will become one in the next book as it will be the most beneficial course of action, he may even be driven to the position, there are many ways such a change could be forced, and all of them seem likely, the biggest two are Rand supporting Logain and attempting to de-seat Taim and put Logain in his place, and Egwene reunifying the White Tower under her name, not Elaida's while managing to be the overseer of the purge, which is likely to happen, and is even shown in her raise to Accepted(her test) for those that remember that far back, and finally that Mat becomes a servant of Aes Sedai seems only likely, or even possible, if Egwene is the Amyrlin, which then unravels all of Taim's plans and forces his hand, his best chance for power becomes the Dark One, not Rand(as it is now). :wink:

 

 

And now that I feel like a conspiracy theorist please, just be sure to consider this last thing; the book Lord of Chaos does not make any mention of Rand being the Lord of Chaos, rather it shows him as weak, and unlordlike(tied up in a sack/box for most of the book), rather the book shows otehr characters more strongly, those being; Cadsuane, Alyanna, Egwene, Perrin, and finally Taim. All of those have massive influence but already have titles or a known lack of significance, thus not ever gaining one, Alyanna is shown subservient to Rand and his servants, Egwene is shown as a uniter not a chaos bringer, Perrin is shown more strongly then ever as the Wolf King(a title not given until KoD), the only people left in a position for such a thing to hold to them are Cadsuane and Taim, in this book we see them both show dominant kingly tendancies, Cadsuane forces the others to do what she pleases, but rather then becoming a Lord she takes the role and title of the Dragons Advisor(although I do not beleive that is in this book), so that leaves Taim, here Taim does naught but spread chaos, he establishes the Tower under Rand's orders and thus causes chaos in Andor where the tower is located, he reqruites Asha'man and thus reeks chaos on their families and lives, shows a lordly side by becoming both the ruler of users of the chaotic power saidin and taking the honorific M'Hael, and finally causes complete chaos at Duamai's Wells when he makes the sudden and unexpected assault with the Asha'man and thus freeing Rand, which takes place during the most chaotic part of the battle and shapes/guides the chaos into a victory for his side, not to mention the chaotic nature of the weaves used by the Asha'man sent by Taim. :)

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Guest Harso

actually the WT was built after the AoL. Your sentences are to long and distract me from actually reading your post. Sorry.

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That makes little difference, the basic structure of the tower was around then, and by that I mean the Aes Sedai and their basic administrative body.

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  • 4 weeks later...

A slight hole in that theory.

 

Graendal did her work on mental diseases before the War of the Shadow, in the Age of Legends. There was no taint then. So Rand's peculiar form of madness is not taint madness. Also, Rand doesn no suffer from the physical decay that indicates the taint's contamination.

 

Rand has been subjected to a large number of unique events. His unhealing wounds, his soul being tied to the Wheel, the method of and reason for his soul's last death, the mixing of his Saidin balefire with Moridin's TP balefire. There is alot more going on there than just the taint.

 

Taim's lack of fear of the taint and use of the precise phrase "let the lord of chaos rule" have a much simpler common explanation: he belongs to the Shadow.

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  • 2 years later...

yeah, i'm nitpicking. sorry again.

 

Not really, those posts are quite unreadable which is a shame since I'd be interested in the details but I simply get driven away after two of those long sentences everytime I try to. Could be better if english was my first language, I dunno.

 

What's the stand on WHOM Taim will allow to be bonded? For me it seemed as if he would allow anyone to be bonded if said person agrees, and he and his followers sure won't agree (least I got that feeling). The introduction of those two river guys also seem suspicious to me, maybe they're the ones (and outsiders) to get ponded, for example?

 

Sorry for topic revival btw, I'm new here, but this one seemed most relevant to my questions and I didn't feel like opening a new one for it alone.

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