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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Jason Denzel

What was your favorite chapter / scene/quote?

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the HoH weapons and armor are not the same as what they had when the lived b/c the the OP has no effect

 

For lack of a better term, the weapons and armor they carry when summoned are conjured and enchanted versions of those they originally carried, but their weaponry was unique  to them.

 

Ya can't have two Heroes carrying two versions of the same unique weapon.  The most likely explanation for how Justice could have come to Rand is if Hawkwing is no longer in T'a'R.

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the HoH weapons and armor are not the same as what they had when the lived b/c the the OP has no effect

 

For lack of a better term, the weapons and armor they carry when summoned are conjured and enchanted versions of those they originally carried, but their weaponry was unique  to them.

 

Ya can't have two Heroes carrying two versions of the same unique weapon.  The most likely explanation for how Justice could have come to Rand is if Hawkwing is no longer in T'a'R.

 

here's a crazy thought.

 

what if one of the Returned brought back the sword (someone of the high blood obviously)

 

someone gets it in the attack at falme, and then it winds up in rand's possession.

 

now, Justice is STILL in hawkwing's possession, because he presumably didnt take the real one with him when he died.  Therefore, he will have a copy, and so will rand.  one will the the TAR sword (the one hawkwing carries) and the other will be the original (that rand now has)

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How about this for a scenario, I like the no longer in TAR idea when it comes to Hawkwing because he is probably in Elaynes womb now ready to burst out so it is perfect for Justice to be found so it can be handed down to a reborn Hawkwing later when he grows up in the 4th age.  The real burning question is where the heck is Birgett's silver bow, methinks it is perfect that Elayne is the maker of one power items now cuz she can make that silver bow for her Warder and even w/o the oaths or with them should she take them soon, the Oath of making weapons for men to kill other men doesn't apply in AS way of sliding around oaths.  PERFECT!

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I doubt Hawkwing is in Elayne's womb.  Mostly 'cause it's pretty apparent a new age is coming, and there's those two Heroes of the Horn who are 'always born when a new age is about to begin' or such.  I recall reading that ... maybe in the BWB or somewhere else, anyone got a reference?

 

I think those are Elayne's babies.

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I wish that happened...nothing in WoT ever goes that easily...lol.

But seriously, how come Nynaeve didn't say to Tuon and all the assembled Seanchan something like, "oh by the way, all your sul'dam can channel.  seriously...try it...but an a'dam on one and you'll see.  your society is a sham.  have a nice day."

 

 

Actually, that revelation was already made to Tuon (in CoT or KoD, I don't remember) by Mat. She didn't even flinch. She actually rationalized it very well. To the Seanchan channeling is evil. Even though Tuon was capable of channeling she didn't actually do it. She chose not do it. So she didn't commit any evil act.

 

The equivalent to channeling in Seanchan society would be child rape in ours. Replace one word for the other and you'll understand their reactions. Those who would channel anyway are child molesters that can't control themselves. The sul'dam (channelers who need to learn to channel) are people who can turn child molesters into good-natured animals. It'd be like replacing famous recurring pedophiles with Lassies and Rintintins, who actually save children.

 

So revealing that the sul'dam can channel only reveals that the person who controls the impulses of the child molester can actually become a child molester...or not. Since there's a choice, there's no inherent evil if they don't actually commit the act. Of course, it can make someone very unhinged to learn what she could be. And sul'dam would be looked with more suspicion. But it wouldn't undermine their society completely. Not if they think like Tuon at least.

 

Uh...I don't see your rationalization working too well here.

 

A very many people who channel are born that way, with the spark. So in your mind these people are born child molesters?

That's $%#^ed up.

 

Tuon's more twisted than your average Seanchan, because she's so self-righteous. Anything that disturbs her perfect vision of a Seanchan world can be rationalized in her mind as an imperfection she means to "correct".

Sicko.

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Uh...I don't see your rationalization working too well here.

 

A very many people who channel are born that way, with the spark. So in your mind these people are born child molesters?

That's $%#^ed up.

 

Not in my mind. In Seanchan's mind. Also in Whitecloak's mind. In TGS Tuon comments that the only Randlanders whose atitude towards channelers makes sense are Amadicians, who kill them (female and male). They can't control channelers, so they do the next best thing (in her opinion). Interestingly, a whitecloak (Eamon Valda?) comments that he'd be content to control channelers like the Seanchan do (I think it was in CoT). It's a nice parallelism. It also makes sense, considering Seanchan came from Randland when Arthur Paendrag was ruler and distrustful of Aes Sedai (due to Baalzamon's influence), even laying siege to Tar Valon.

 

Tuon's more twisted than your average Seanchan, because she's so self-righteous. Anything that disturbs her perfect vision of a Seanchan world can be rationalized in her mind as an imperfection she means to "correct".

Sicko.

 

But Tuon's empress. Her opinion surely counts. Maybe it's the opion that counts the most. Lots of sul'dam and non-sul'dam have reacted badly to learning that they could channel, but she didn't. How this news will affect the empire depends on how many will react like Tuon and how many won't. The fact that she's empress might make all of them (or most) react like her.

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I think I missed that. People keep saying that Rand has Justice but I didn't notice this. In which chapter exactly is this revealed?
It's not confirmed in the books, Team Jordan confirmed it.

 

I think I missed that. People keep saying that Rand has Justice but I didn't notice this. In which chapter exactly is this revealed?
In Arad Doman, he is given a sword that he remembers from his memories, not LTT.  It's a special blade of some sort, and found underneath the ocean or some such.  He mentions seeing it in Falme.  The only special blades he really saw in Falme were the Seanchan High Lord's, which was heron-marked and Justice in the Horn-Summoned Artur Hawkwing's fist.

 

I believe BS verified that it was Justice, or at least did a non-answering assent sort of thing.

Which argues strongly that if/when the Horn is sounded again, Hawkwing will not be present.  Be paradoxical for two Heroes ( Rand and Hawkwing ) to both have the same sword at the same time in the same place.
It doesn't argue that way in the slightest. If the Pattern can cope with dead heroes out of legend being summoned into the world, unable to be harmed by weapons, capable of sinking a ship with a single arrow, advancing and falling back as a guy fighting a battle in the sky does so, I think it can cope with two swords. Especially as both have existed in the world before - Justice was still in the world (albeit hidden) when Hawkwing was present at Falme. Two Justices in the world. Paradox? Maybe, but the Pattern didn't mind.

 

I doubt Hawkwing is in Elayne's womb.  Mostly 'cause it's pretty apparent a new age is coming, and there's those two Heroes of the Horn who are 'always born when a new age is about to begin' or such. I recall reading that ... maybe in the BWB or somewhere else, anyone got a reference?

 

I think those are Elayne's babies.

Shivan and Calian. We see them at Falme. Yes, that's been put forward before, and is plausible.

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To be honest that doesn't make her a sicko, it makes her desperate to hang on to everything she "knows" to be right. Remember, the Seanchan are the way they are simply because of Hawkwing and the way everything went down in Randland. That, in my humble opinion, is Ishamael's greatest achievement. Creating a society in which the only people in the world capable of stopping his plans are enslaved or killed. He came awefully close to taking Egwene away, which would have doomed the Tower. Absolutely brilliant. And of course, we saw in book 2 how everything would happen if the Seanchan won.

 

Just like many people in our society- if you introduce something that rocks their world, the easiest way for a strong willed person to deal with it is to rationalize and attack the idea- never to accept it. Remember how long it took to convince the sul'dam of their abilities. I doubt Tuon will ever change. Sadly, that makes her an enemy- which is a shame since I like her and respect her.

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That, in my humble opinion, is Ishamael's greatest achievement. Creating a society in which the only people in the world capable of stopping his plans are enslaved or killed. He came awefully close to taking Egwene away, which would have doomed the Tower. Absolutely brilliant. And of course, we saw in book 2 how everything would happen if the Seanchan won.

 

Wait.. since when did Ishy do that?

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Actually, we know that Ishmael was free during this time in history. Ishamael took credit for turning Hawkwing's distrust of Aes Sedai into open hatred. Also, I believe that Bonwhin was an unwitting pawn of idiocy- much like Elaida- in alienating the Tower from the world. Ishamael manipulated events- and Hawkwing's armies and sons crossed the Aryth Ocean- building a society centered around hatred and distrust of channelers. In time, that blossomed into something even more extreme- seeing them as animals. I believe this was Ishmael's intention- his way of weakening the world for the Day of Return. The Seanchan were in his plot in book two to remove Egwene and Nynaeve from play- dooming Rand's chances of success and the Tower's chance of survival for good. It makes sense that he knew right where to look for them once he was freed because he set it all in motion so many years ago. Ishy knows the pattern- knows the numbers of chaos. It will be intersting to see what else he has up his sleeve when the storm comes.

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My fav scene{s} are (in no particular order):

 

1. Mat's story to get into the city and all his elaborate planning....

 

2. Verin's confession and passing of knowledge

 

3. Egwene's second confrontation with Elaida......where she gets all cut up...

 

4. Egwene fighting the Seanchan

 

5. Cadsaune(SP?) pushing Semi on the florr and telling her to eat! (she used her pimp hand...lol)

 

6. Veins of Gold....hands down....

 

7. Egwene turning around and calling down both groups of Aes Sedai....i was like wtf...but it was good

 

8. not as much but: Avi telling the Wise Ones that she is qualified and is their equal...

 

 

there are more...but too many...

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One of my favorite scenes was the encounter between Rodel Ituralde and Lt. General Turan.  Such a poignant and tragic meeting between two honorable warriors on the battlefield.

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My favorite scenes in no particular order....

 

Tam saying to Nynaneve "Its alright Wisdom" when Cadsune is being the bitch she always is.

 

Egwene using Vora's Sa angreal with the Green Captain General looking on.

 

Veins of Gold

 

A Conversation with Verin

 

The whole byplay between Talmanes and Mat (priceless).

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One of my favorite scenes was the encounter between Rodel Ituralde and Lt. General Turan.  Such a poignant and tragic meeting between two honorable warriors on the battlefield.

 

Oooh, good one. I really liked that too.

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I think I really liked Rand's latest encounter with Ishamael. It seemed different. There was somthing very complex about Morridin, and it reminded me of what Verin was saying about whether or not Rand truly understood the Dark One's evil.

 

Morridin seemed almost weary and tired of the conflict, the never ending series of battles and time and Ages. He almost seemed open to the possibility that perhaps he may even be on the wrong side...

 

I have to say that it was a very interesting encounter.

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In one word, Egwene. After all that struggle for several books, finally winning in every aspect, glory all over. I loved it.

I am curious to the meeting between Egwene and Moraine, something like 'hello Mother'?

Verin Mathwin was awful too, I would love to see her one more time.

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I really liked the scene with Rand and Morridin, i thought that the way that Rand was so calm and centered was really cool. Kind of how i see him as being now after the end of TGS. Also learning a bit more about Morridin in that encounter was good to, he comes across as a very complex character there.

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My favorite 'scene' was definitely when Egwene got pulled out of her dream by the Seanchan attack and all that followed immediately after - not the fight so much as she gathering the novies and taking charge.

 

It might have been the scene where Verin reveals that she is Black Ajah, but two days (literally) before I got to that part I was browsing through wiki looking up something on someone else entirely (another lesser character) and my eyes just fell on 'Verin reveals that she is Black Ajah and has spent her entire life studying them, something she can only reveal in the last hour of her death so she drinks poison and confesses to Egwene while she is captive in the White Tower' or something to that effect. It was like a punch in the gut. I was SO pissed...

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I must admit i haven't read all 39 pages of this thread, but my favorite scene wasn't mentioned yet.

And it has nothing to do with the main characters, although i loved reading so much of them. (esp. Rand/Egwene)

 

It seems a less important scene, but it just stuck to me: the scene with the farmer and the blacksmith in the Borderlands. (Shienar?)

The way how they react to the odd 'gathering' storm, that's just amazing, and it shows to me the Dark One is going to get the surprise of his life at Tarwin's Gap..

 

Loved it. Veins of Gold was also nice, but i thought the switch within Rand happened a bit too sudden.

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Sorry, I’m new to these to these boards, so I just wanted to put a few things down.

So saying that I got to say that veins of gold has to be the best chapter of the whole entire book, simply being that it sounded like something that Robert Jordan himself would have wrote, the greatness of the soul that is the dragon came out in leaps and bounds, one can easily see  in that moment the great man lews therin “ASIDE FROM HIS KNOWLEDGE AND ACOMPLISHMENTS” was and why he was called the great leader.

I have read a lot about how this and that was great in the book, but to one who read the books and knows everthing by heart, the gathering storm was full of holes, first thing sanderson does not understand the one power, he is doing mundane things with the powers, rand saying that he is drawing a little extra so that the senchan damane can’t cut him off, the senchan can’t link and he is the strongest channeler and it would take a forsaken or a full circle to cut him off, cydane say that with the choedan cal that the power coming through the female half  is enough to melt continents, cadsuene says that nynaeve is drawing more power that every sister, with every sa angrael and angrael can chanel, and we know that nynaeve is no where near as strong as rand, the seanch damena shields were supposed to rebound, he was not supposed to be resilient, think back to verin and Alana trying to cut him off. But thinks he might have problems with a hundred damane, pls  they would be like flies.

Sanderson second mistake, rand has lews therins knowledge, the same man that created death gates, arrows of fire, blossoms of fire, remember only ishmahael equaled lews therin in the one power, and know one equaled  lews therin in knowledge of the power , he was the greatest person of his age because of his accomplishments, in an age of great men and great accomplishments, but that seems to have been forgotten, all rand can do now is rain fire or lightening to strike and bite, what happened to all that knowledge, rand was supposed to be able to draw now.

Mins betrayal and it is betrayal, giving all her viewings to cadsuene to better manipulate, did she not say her viewings were for rand only, so much for her love!!!!

Nynaeve telling rand how to plan a war, great gods these aes sedai  know everything and yet nothing. When did nynaeve learn war but still talk crap, rand plans made sense although cruel.

Rand killing grandal brilliant, but nynaeve and min being uppity about it, samirage  the greatest healer of the age of legends says that compulsion cannot be healed.

There was so many things wrong that I can go on and on, that frightened me as to what sanderson will write in the next book, maybe everybody should have honoured Robert jordans memory and left the book unfinished, because I see that now rand will be nothing but a puppet to cadsuene , toun and the rest of the women of randland, sad that Robert Jordan did not live to finish the book himself, I think he would have written rand as the great lews therin.

I’ve got a feeling that as of veins of gold, that rand should have atleast all of lews therins knowledge,memories and skils, if not all his previous lives as that chapter indicated, but come towers of midnight I got a feeling that sanderson will chicken out and rand will just be plain old rand all that knowledge will disappear, what a disappoint that will be!!!!

And the aes sedai are just as stupid as ever, I’m really starting to loathe egwene. 

 

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Agreed Charles Darwin, except that it wasn't my favorite chapter/scene.  But it was interesting.  I expected something different out of the prologue but it got me excited that we see the new wrinkle in weather the DO is busting out.  First it was the never ending Winter, then the never ending Scorching Summer and now it is the never ending Overcast.  lol  I will say one thing though, if we don't see those farmers, workers and wives from the prologue somewhere down the road in the next two books, I will not be happy...lol BS has to have the characters get a weapon from the smith or something at least.

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There are two best quotes throughout the book. Granted I don't have the book in front of me, so these are not exact....Still, they brought tears to my eyes. Hilarious.

 

Mat- "Welcome to Hinderstap. We'll kill you in the night and eat your bloodyfaces. Try the pie."

Rand- "Sit down at the table and make her think you're playing her game. Then you punch her in the face as hard as you can."

 

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One of Mats best moments made me laugh out loud, when hes whining to Thom about being chased by Darkfriends and whatnot, and he said he "wished they'd all go chase Rand, because he likes it."

 

Another one that stuck in my mind was when Rand asked Nynaeve to dream on his behalf.

 

My favorite thing throughout the whole book though was the way Rand approached dealing with Graendal. He didnt give her a chance to fight back because he knew he would lose, and his plan had no side effects on Ramshalan. His immediate assumption that every person in the mansion died by his mercy... And "How do you fight someone you know is smarter than you? You make her think you're sat playing her games. Then you punch her in the face as hard as you can." Wow

 

Nynaeves loyalty to the Two Rivers folk remains strong as ever, she did good in TGS.

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One of Mats best moments made me laugh out loud, when hes whining to Thom about being chased by Darkfriends and whatnot, and he said he "wished they'd all go chase Rand, because he likes it."

 

Another one that stuck in my mind was when Rand asked Nynaeve to dream on his behalf.

 

My favorite thing throughout the whole book though was the way Rand approached dealing with Graendal. He didnt give her a chance to fight back because he knew he would lose, and his plan had no side effects on Ramshalan. His immediate assumption that every person in the mansion died by his mercy... And "How do you fight someone you know is smarter than you? You make her think you're sat playing her games. Then you punch her in the face as hard as you can." Wow

 

Nynaeves loyalty to the Two Rivers folk remains strong as ever, she did good in TGS.

Nynaeve lashing out at Tuon, and Rand backing her up, made Tuon realise what kind of people Mat was raised from. It showed that Two Rivers people will always be loyal to Two rivers people.

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Nynaeve lashing out at Tuon, and Rand backing her up, made Tuon realise what kind of people Mat was raised from. It showed that Two Rivers people will always be loyal to Two rivers people.

 

Yeah thats the bit I meant. "Such loyalty!"

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