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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue


JenniferL
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A grat book, but got one question

When Rand and LTT became one, did Rand gain LTT skills and memory alsow?

 

 

 

I found it odd more people never seemed to think LT was just a coping mechanism of Rands subconcious, that's what I always assumed from reading the books.  I shrugged it off though, I have been wrong about plenty of things before.  Sanderson pretty much pounded you over the head with it in the last chapter though.  I'm a little O.o  that some people still don't get the nature of the relationship.

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Ok for those who say Ram knew Rand was outside waiting, I say not true. Rand led him to believe he didnt have time for it.  A Force of Light pg 568

 

"Go quickly and return, Ramshalan. I will leave the gateway open until you are back."

 And for those who think it was a harmless compulsion. A Force of Light pg 572

 

"Yes. Rand, he's under HEAVY COMPULSION. There are a lot of weaves here. MAYBE not as bad as the Chandler's apprentice, or MAYBE JUST MORE SUBTLE."  Clearly states HEAVY COMPULSION.

Now page 573

 

 "You sent this man to suffer compulsion, knowing what it would do to him? I wont watch another man squirm and die because of this! Whatever she has compelled him to do, I wont remove it!"

Translated to- only way to remove this heavy compulsion is to kill the man.

 

Graendal is dead, anyone who disagrees is overthinking this.

 

 

The key here is the line "MAYBE JUST MORE SUBTLE."  Look to page 134 in The Plan For Arad Doman. Rand says "If Graendal really has taken Alasam, then getting him back will do us no good. He'll be so far beneath her Compulsion that he'll barely have the mind of a child. SHE'S NOT SUBTLE; SHE NEVER HAS BEEN." This, coupled with the "maybe not as bad as Chandler's apprentice" make it clear to me that it was not actually Graendal that wove the compulsion. She probably had a pet Aes Sedai do it and fled.

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Ok for those who say Ram knew Rand was outside waiting, I say not true. Rand led him to believe he didnt have time for it.  A Force of Light pg 568

 

"Go quickly and return, Ramshalan. I will leave the gateway open until you are back."

 And for those who think it was a harmless compulsion. A Force of Light pg 572

 

"Yes. Rand, he's under HEAVY COMPULSION. There are a lot of weaves here. MAYBE not as bad as the Chandler's apprentice, or MAYBE JUST MORE SUBTLE."  Clearly states HEAVY COMPULSION.

Now page 573

 

 "You sent this man to suffer compulsion, knowing what it would do to him? I wont watch another man squirm and die because of this! Whatever she has compelled him to do, I wont remove it!"

Translated to- only way to remove this heavy compulsion is to kill the man.

 

Graendal is dead, anyone who disagrees is overthinking this.

 

 

 

The key here is the line "MAYBE JUST MORE SUBTLE."  Look to page 134 in The Plan For Arad Doman. Rand says "If Graendal really has taken Alasam, then getting him back will do us no good. He'll be so far beneath her Compulsion that he'll barely have the mind of a child. SHE'S NOT SUBTLE; SHE NEVER HAS BEEN." This, coupled with the "maybe not as bad as Chandler's apprentice" make it clear to me that it was not actually Graendal that wove the compulsion. She probably had a pet Aes Sedai do it and fled.

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The key here is the line "MAYBE JUST MORE SUBTLE."  Look to page 134 in The Plan For Arad Doman. Rand says "If Graendal really has taken Alasam, then getting him back will do us no good. He'll be so far beneath her Compulsion that he'll barely have the mind of a child. SHE'S NOT SUBTLE; SHE NEVER HAS BEEN."

Didn't it say in some book that Graendal so often used compulsion as a hammer that everybody forgot that she could wield it with great finesse as well? Her pretties don't need any finesse.

 

This, coupled with the "maybe not as bad as Chandler's apprentice" make it clear to me that it was not actually Graendal that wove the compulsion. She probably had a pet Aes Sedai do it and fled.

We don't know that she has any pet Aes Sedai. Why would she even let any Aes Sedai do it? And why would she take the risk of surrounding herself with "pet Aes Sedai"?

 

 

 

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Here is what I said about Graendal dying in the favorite scene thread

 

This scene was not just about killing Graendal but about the depths Rand has fallen. It shows that Rand has gotten to the point he is willing to commit atrocities and is as bad as the shadow now. The fact that Graendal did not expect this shows that LT never did anything, or even considered anything like this (or she would have been worried about it in a PoV), that rand has abandoned the light. This is why it is a great and powerful scene. It is also why, even with the other theories going around already, Graendal will stay dead.

 

This is the reason for the scene. As for the evidence that she is not dead, in reality there is none. In fact every single piece points to her being dead. Lets take a look:

 

1) Rand at this point is actively using his memories as LT. He knows how she works and her methodology. She knows LT better than he currently knows her (he is not 100% LT) but LT never would have done this, nor would Rand based on EVERYTHING he has done up to this point. Her expecting this would be like us expecting the communist dictator himself bringing a suitcase nuke into the US and setting it off. It is absurd.

 

2) The compulsion was done with a skill, that only Graendal could have pulled off. It was both heavy and subtle; it made sure he would do only what she said while being hard to detect. Nynaeve is a master of delving and even she could not begin to detect it all. Plus, like the poster above me stated, Graendal may have liked to destroy minds and make pets, she was the true master of compulsion and used it in subtle ways when it suited her. She, and others, had said this themselves, and even noted how dangerous it was to discount this fact.

 

3) The compulsion was removed after the balefire. To have this happen, she would have had to had the weave dissipate after Rand received the information (which would mean that she could not use this man in her plans anymore since he would not have orders), she had someone else do it (Graendal loves her compulsion and is very prideful of it. Plus, there is no way she would trust anyone with the knowledge she has. Since it is detectable by Nynave and she can see some of the weaves, we know that this had to be done by saidar), or she did it herself. The last option is the only one that makes sense based on what LT, the other forsaken, and graendal herself had said about her methods.

 

4) If graendal set it, then she was hit by the balefire. Bye bye.

 

Now, we know Rand did not use the full power of the CK, nowhere near it. He would not have erased graendal back to when she was free. I think at most it could be two weeks, and that would almost assuredly been enough to unravel the pattern with how much she influences things. I suspect it was maybe a few days.

 

Now, lets go over the evidence for graendal escaping:

 

She knows people so she would have been suspicious or planned it.

 

This goes against everything RJ has shown us about the forsaken. They make plans, they make contingencies, but they are prideful and make many mistakes. Graendal is not immune to this. I can say with 99% certainty that she did not see this as a possibility. Although, this should not be counted as a mistake since what happened goes against the realm of all reason.

 

 

So, in closing, having her live would defeat the purpose of this scene as well as go against mountains of evidence for her being dead. Not only that, there is no real evidence, other than "she's better than that" feelings by some people. As RJ would say, "Graendal is toast".

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I realize that the scene was not about killing Graenal. This makes it all the more likely that she is still alive. It was about showing the atrocity of the moment, and this could easily be done without Graendal being dead. This was accomplished by all the innocents that were killed. I understand the point about the Forsaken being flawed. However, RJ built Graendal up to be one of the best. She is probably the current Forsaken that we know the most about. He built her up to be a great Forsaken and I don't think he would have taken her out in this fashion.

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I'm wondering if we know much about how the Forsaken deal with the First Weave Rule?  Nyn notices the compulsion on Ram is heavy but a bit different.  It's possible that Graendal would be unable to use a different weave to create a heavy compulsion.

 

She and/or Moridin didn't have to know that Rand would BF the entire manor in order to think it wise to set up a decoy location for Rand to attack.  Moridin has Moghedian and Cyndane available to play decoy.  As Naeblis, he certainly could have snatched up a BA to do it as well.  Any of these individuals might have learned a different weave for heavy compulsion.

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First-time poster; don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet.

 

I think Nynaeve leaning over a body isn't Lan, which everyone seems to assume. I'm pretty sure it's Rand. How many hints do we need that everything short of death  ought to be healable, anddd even death, in some ways?

 

As for Egwene or Gawyn being t'averen, it's always seemed to me to be a bit unbalanced that the male characters are t'averen, the women not so much. I mean, obviously Jordan has always given the lion's share of power and influence to the women,  in some ways, but that would explain some of the ease with which the wonder girls always have been able to find what they are looking for, etc.

 

Also, clearly BS is pulling a GRRM. There would be one chapter about each character if he'd tried to pack everything in this book! I thought it extremely clever to tantalize us with a int of Morgase-Galad. It's always seemed to me a bit strange that Rand, with all his conflicting emotions about Tam, hasn't pressed more to meet his brother.

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I see that similar to the difference in healing pre/post nynaeve. You can heal either way, but those with real healing talent seem to have much better success with the new healing weaves. Graendal can throw on a generic heavy compulsion, or she can set in the weaves to be subtle and more encompassing. Once again this all points at Graendal either way. The current day Aes Sedai's grasp of compulsion is amateurish at best. As for a counter argument, the only heavy compulsion we have seen removed successfully was on Liandrin. I couldnt tell you the book and definitely not the chapter but Liandrin tried her pitiful compulsion on Moghedian and Mog countered with a true compulsion. Left Liandrin worshipping her for a few seconds and then was removed. Now I feel as though she wasnt irreversibly damaged because the weave was not tied and only left on for a very few short seconds and removed.

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I think much of the debate over Graendal's death is simply frustration with how she died.  If this were earlier in the series, I would consider the possibility that she lived.  But in terms of the story, what is the point of a fake death right now? For the sake of the story she needed to be eliminated.

 

This really saddens me, as Graendal has long been one of my favorite characters and I wish she had a more glorious end.  I even played as Graendal on the old WoT mud 15 years ago.  I'm sad to see her die in the name of Rand's characterization, without even a final PoV.  But sadly, i don't think she's alive.

 

Enough of that.  Some random thoughts...

 

One thing that really struck me as I was reading was how much the characters referenced their pasts.  Did anyone else notice this? Egwene commenting on her innkeeper's daughter roots; Rand, Mat and Perrin reminiscing on their days before the Trollocs came to the Two Rivers...the mentions of the past were much more explicit in this book.  Usually its only Nyneave that refers to those events in her PoV.  I really liked this change.  Its nice to see the characters acknowledge who they were before they became the most powerful people in the world.

 

I really want someone to tell Rand that he's going to be a father.  I guess it will happen now that he's going to be all Happy!Laughter!Rand, but it would have been interesting to see if impending fatherhood snapped him out of his Dark!Rand mode earlier.

 

I loved the Aviendha scenes, and I understand why she did not want to talk to Rand until she restores her honor, but I still would like to have seen them have a few words together!

 

I was also disappointed that the Perrin meeting Galad/revelation of Morgase scene happened off-screen. I'm hoping the scene will be in the Prologue of the next book.

 

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Re: the destruction of the CK

 

Has no one noticed that the Shadow WANTED Rand to have the CK?  It was being kept in the same box as the Domination Band in Cadsuane's room.  Whoever stole the a'dam deliberately left the access key in the box for Rand to retrieve later.  If the CK was really a threat to the Shadow, then Shaidar Haran or whoever stole the Band would have taken the access key as well.

 

This also leads me to believe that Semirhage's breakout was set up for failure; the whole thing was a plot to manoeuvre Rand into moving closer to the Shadow.  We learned in one of the other books that no one can channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission (and Rand even thinks, later one, that Lews Therin believes that it should have been "impossible" for him to channel the TP).  I think the point of the breakout was to have Semirhage a) inflict further heartache/emotional torture on Rand and b) put him in a position where he could not escape except by channeling the True Power.  Once she had "put him in a box" again, and tried to get him to kill his lover (memories of LTT), Rand lost the last shred of hope that he had that he could both fight the Shadow and retain a sense of his former self.  Once that last bit "snapped", he was in a position where he was willing to do anything, even channel the True Power (or kill hundreds of innocents), to win.  Semirhage knew that if Rand was channeling the TP, it meant that the DO one allowed it; that's why she thought she had been "betrayed".  Shaidar Haran had set her up for a fall and she knew it.

 

I think that the Shadow's plan has been, all along, to turn Rand.  It first attempted to tempt him (Christ in the desert-style) with power and riches and the soul of his dead mother.  That failed.  It then adopted a subtler strategy: push him to despair.  We could call this the slow crucifixion of Rand al'Thor.  Make Rand think that everyone and everything had turned against him, and that this would go on for ever and ever; he will despair and tear the world apart just to end his torment.  This is what Moridin's "show him heartbreak" instructions to Graendal were all about.  In the end, it very nearly worked.  Rand nearly destroyed the Seanchan (who are essential to his eventual victory), and then nearly unraveled the Pattern itself with the CK.  The Semirhage/TP incident was a key step in manoeuvering him into the state of mind where he could do that.

 

The fact that the clouds opened up to shine on him and Dragonmount after he destroyed the CK shows that this was the right thing to do (also it connects well with Rand's frequent comments throughout the books about how the CK were not mentioned in the prophecies).  "Belief and order give strength".  What is needed to defeat the Shadow is not raw power.  The DO is a limitless force of evil; he cannot be overpowered in that way.  Defeating him requires a form of spiritual warfare.

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I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the scenes that we heard about via other people (i.e. Morgase revealed, etc.) were shown in a PoV chapter in the next book.  One thing I noticed with the book was that the PoV's were not always in sync with each other timewise.  RJ did the same thing at times, but I think it was more noticeable in this book.  Rand sees Mat in Caemlyn in his vision, a few chapters later we see Mat in a mountain village, on his WAY to Caemlyn, but not there yet.  I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the Towers of Midnight, much like Crossroads of Twilight, was in many ways a "catch-up" book for the first half or so, or even all of it, and we pick up from where Rand left off after Mat, Perrin et al finally get to where they left off in Rand's PoV.

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"Belief and order give strength".  What is needed to defeat the Shadow is not raw power.  The DO is a limitless force of evil; he cannot be overpowered in that way.  Defeating him requires a form of spiritual warfare.

 

I think you're right about this.  Not to get too religious, but I think the DO doesn't have a choice about the "hour of death" loophole. Smacks of a strong Christian/last Confession influence.  Plus, we've heard the Whitecloaks constantly say something like, "No one has fallen so far into shadow that he cannot come back to the light."  Of course, the difficulty with this idea is that, unlike the story of Job, we have no evidence of the Creator & Dark One having conversations about what the rules of engagement are.

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On the CK: Several folks have alluded to the fact that Rand having the CK could render a lot of plot points or story elements moot. I.E. he can CK-Balefire the whole friggin blight and flip the bird on TG. It seems that destroying the CK removes that What If scenario  while also serving a central pillar of whole story. That pillar being-great things are possible when the two sexes work together. Rand saturated with CK, Callandor and fat man angreal can STILL be shielded by the 13 weakest sisters linked. TG will be determined by characters working together not OP. Removing the CK removes the temptation of using it as a crutch during assault on SG or to annilihate entire armies. On that note...

 

Callandors "Flaw": There has been a fair amount of speculation onto the nature of Callandor's flaw and its future purpose. I think the flaw is meant to compell men/women working together. Rand will have to surrender control and realize that he can't do it all himself. Elayne/Avi/Rand linked through Callandor seems likely. Rand and Co. (BT/Ashaman) will have to go against their pride and nature and surrender control to the Aes Sedai and women in general.

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Actually, to those who say Graendal can only use brute force Compulsion, you're absolutely incorrect, based on testimony from one Mr. Tel Janin Aellinsar:

 

Sammael would not be surprised if every Domani who visited here left believing that this land had been handed down in her family since the Breaking. She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

 

Graendal can do anything and everything with Compulsion.

 

Which ought to surprise no one, since she's always got a better understanding of the human mind than anyone - certainly than anyone in the Third Age, since there aren't psychiatrists any more.

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Callandors "Flaw": There has been a fair amount of speculation onto the nature of Callandor's flaw and its future purpose. I think the flaw is meant to compell men/women working together. Rand will have to surrender control and realize that he can't do it all himself. Elayne/Avi/Rand linked through Callandor seems likely. Rand and Co. (BT/Ashaman) will have to go against their pride and nature and surrender control to the Aes Sedai and women in general.

 

I think both the AS and AM will be humiliated and be forced to work together, with even sacrafice from both, it would be rediculous to think otherwise. So one gender would not have more control than the other.

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I realize that the scene was not about killing Graenal. This makes it all the more likely that she is still alive. It was about showing the atrocity of the moment, and this could easily be done without Graendal being dead. This was accomplished by all the innocents that were killed. I understand the point about the Forsaken being flawed. However, RJ built Graendal up to be one of the best. She is probably the current Forsaken that we know the most about. He built her up to be a great Forsaken and I don't think he would have taken her out in this fashion.

 

The fact she was so built up and so cunning is what helps play into this scene. Rand went off the deep end, loosing his humanity to the point that not even one of the best of the forsaken could come close to predicting this. Him doing this is absurd.

 

Graendal knows he has LT knowledge, she knows how LT works, and she knows how Rand has acted in the past. She fears balefire for its effect on the pattern, as did the rest of the forsaken. She knows the light fears it as much or more. How would she even anticipate that the most powerful ta'veren and champion of the light would take an actio

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Aww, but he knew that rand had held the gateway open for him! And that he was waiting for him to return! THus Grendel would know that Rand was waiting for an answer from him!

 

Not only that, but she knows Rand asked, "How do you beat someone you know is smarter than you?"  It's obvious, painfully so, that she's not going to think Rand bought any of Ramshalan's ideas, certainly not thinking Ramshalan was an intelligent ally in his fight.

 

If she has -anyone- there, at all, who can channel, she'll have them do the Compulsion and -book- it just like she always knew she would when Rand found her.

 

FOUND her.  Not confronted her.  Merely found her.

 

Face it guys, she is alive and well.

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"Belief and order give strength".  What is needed to defeat the Shadow is not raw power.  The DO is a limitless force of evil; he cannot be overpowered in that way.  Defeating him requires a form of spiritual warfare.

 

I think you're right about this.  Not to get too religious, but I think the DO doesn't have a choice about the "hour of death" loophole. Smacks of a strong Christian/last Confession influence.  Plus, we've heard the Whitecloaks constantly say something like, "No one has fallen so far into shadow that he cannot come back to the light."  Of course, the difficulty with this idea is that, unlike the story of Job, we have no evidence of the Creator & Dark One having conversations about what the rules of engagement are.

 

The idea of redemption is one of the main recurring themes in the Wheel of Time, especially with Rand's revelation at the end that he is spun out again so that he can have a second chance.  This ties hand-in-hand with the idea that "No one has fallen so far into shadow that he cannot come back to the light."

I mentioned this on one of the other posts, and although it still may be unlikely, the one character that would have perhaps the greatest knowledge of HOW to reseal the Dark One is Elan Morin Tedronai.  He was remarkably brilliant even in the Age of Legends, and in his conversation with Rand in The Gathering Storm, Rand questions if it was his logic that made him fall - he just thought it out too much, and wants the oblivion that comes with the Dark One's victory.  It's interesting that they don't talk a whole lot about him in the Age of Legends in the books (as I recall, anyway).  He destroyed the Hall of Servants, but it sounded like that came later, after his fall.  I wonder if we won't see, especially with Rand finally admitting who he is and perhaps remembering all that he had forgotted, more insights into Elan Morin's past, especially since he has said several times that he is the Dark One's champion.  If he could be made to see a reason that a second chance at life is a good thing, that might make all the difference.

 

Now, it's entirely possible that this isn't how it will go, but it's interesting to speculate.  It would drive a final nail into the idea that "NO ONE has fallen so far into shadow that he cannot come back to the light," it would highlight the relationship between the two men, and the idea of two men becoming one - they become one in purpose.  Plus, it would mean that the Light would win in the same way that the Dark One tried to destroy Rand - a victory of faith and conviction, not of raw power.  Maybe "A Memory of Light" is something they need to instill into the Dark One's own champion that will bring about his resealing.

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AS other people have said concerning Graendel: let's see a body. When FoH came out and it was like BLAME: Moiraines dead, some people probably were like "Well that's that. Plot lines usually kill off the teacher of the Hero in stories so that the Hero can learn a lesson, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah..." And you know what? She's alive. And the light's rescuing her. So let's just WAIT AND SEE or, as RJ (and Jason) liked to say, RAFO!!!

We can have 5,000 theories bouncing around but we're not the author. No metter what RJ and BS cooked up, have faith that it'll fit the story line and all will be good.

My 2 cents is that there was no confrontation. Graendel was badass enough that their SHOULD have been a confrontation. So I believe she's not dead.

I've surprisingly heard no wondering's about Min's viewing of Nynaeve (early in the book) about Nyna weeping over a grave. I feel like it would too obviously be Lan... which leads to pondering, who could it be???!? Who, close to Nyna is going to die?!?

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My 2 cents is that there was no confrontation. Graendel was badass enough that their SHOULD have been a confrontation. So I believe she's not dead.

 

 

BS through Rand went to some fairly expansive trouble to detail that there would NEVER be a confrontation with Graendel. At the first sign of conflict she just bolts. Confrontation would seem neigh unto impossible given her characterization. A wise man once said "got to nuke it from orbit...only way to be sure"

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I would say, in a sad, pathetic attempt to head off more Graendal-spec, it is irrelevant right now whether Graendal survived.

 

What was relevant in TGS was that Rand Balefired a small city's worth of people with the most powerful sa'angreal ever.

 

The shock of this caused Nynaeve and Min to finally throw up their hands in disgust and go to Cadsuane. I don't think they ever completely trusted her, but rather, this event was absolutely necessary for Cadsuane and Sorilea to win their war against DarkRand/CrazyRand (I think I have done something to popularize the latter moniker, but I really think we ought to decide what we should call Rand from ACOS to the end of TGS, and *certainly* over the course of TGS; I move for CrazyRand from 7 to 11, changing over to DarkRand in this book).

 

They did so in large part because Rand had zero compunction about doing this.

 

This in turn brought Min close to Cadsuane, who I think is coming to realize that Min might be someone capable of actual, complex thought unlike the vast majority of people in Randland, as well as Nynaeve.

 

Without those girls, there's no way Cadsuane can find Tam, and without Tam, there's no breakdown.

 

Of course, that Rand managed reintegration came almost by accident, since Cadsuane's old habits die hard - witness for example her treatment of Tam, who becomes the first character to finally say "you know what? You're not a legend, you're a pathetic bully, as much as any man walking around getting into barfights" - and nearly resulted in the exact opposite, namely, the complete domination of Rand's persona by DarkRand.

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I'm surprised Graendal is getting this much attention.  Sure, it's possible she's alive, but I personally felt is was laid out to where she could have died.  He compares it to a game of stones, a game I think it mentions Llews Therin was fond of and good at (although I may be wrong at that).  Rand makes her believe that he's playing stones with her - he moves in his pawn.  Since Graendal likes games, she sends the pawn back, doing exactly what he anticipates BECAUSE she KNOWS he is anticipating it.  The one thing that Graendal is NOT anticipating is that Rand is not going to play stones.  I highly, highly doubt, especially considering that the Forsaken don't even like using balefire, that she thought that Rand would use the Choedan Kal to utterly annihilate her entire place at once - that was the whole point of the strategy.  You start like a game, so they think it's a game, and than you punch them in the face.  If you're a servant of Darkness, you don't expect the champion of Light to beat you by doing something you yourself would shudder to contemplate

 

Yes, there is no body so it's POSSIBLE she escaped... but if she was balefired, there never will be, so we'll have to see.  I imagine BS will let us know one way or the other, though, if there is this much debate about it... otherwise, even if she never appears in the story again, people will still cling to the fact that she's alive, somewhere!

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AS other people have said concerning Graendel: let's see a body. When FoH came out and it was like BLAME: Moiraines dead, some people probably were like "Well that's that. Plot lines usually kill off the teacher of the Hero in stories so that the Hero can learn a lesson, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah..." And you know what? She's alive. And the light's rescuing her. So let's just WAIT AND SEE or, as RJ (and Jason) liked to say, RAFO!!!

We can have 5,000 theories bouncing around but we're not the author. No metter what RJ and BS cooked up, have faith that it'll fit the story line and all will be good.

My 2 cents is that there was no confrontation. Graendel was badass enough that their SHOULD have been a confrontation. So I believe she's not dead.

 

AMEN

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