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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue


JenniferL
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On Graendal:

 

I think she's dead, but it's meant to be ambiguous. I personally don't know how Graendal's death could've been shown in that situation -- it happened to quickly for a POV to show it, and anyone close enough to see it directly would've also been balefired at the same time.

 

Having it happen off screen though is precisely the sort of aggravatingly ambiguous event that RJ loved to include in the books, though, just to set us squabbling. Just like Sammael or Asmodean's death (which we now may never get fully resolved, if Graendal did do it).

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Just finished the book and I gotta say IMO one of, if not the, best in the series. Honestly, I think BS did a better job even than RJ of making the characters real and believeable. Not to take anything away from the master, he did plot and storyline better than anyone i've ever read, but characters just weren't his strong suit.

 

 

 

I can honestly say I think that is a ridiculous statement. "The Master" had arranged for the characters to "DEVELOP" as the story progressed, the growth/maturity of those characters are Jordan's work. Their growth and torment would have been paramount to completion near the end of the saga. or we would not have so much suspense throughout the saga. Someone wrote a long time ago on this board that the DO would have been defeated had the main characters only sat down and said, "This is what I know, and this is what I am doing." to take the genius of that character development from RJ is thoughtless and insulting.

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Re Choden Kal (sp?):

 

I don't think that having all that power is necessary, in fact it's probably counter productive.  Verin says that she doesn't think the final battle is going to be fought the way Rand thinks. She's probably right. I think when he destroys the CK he's starting to realize this.  

 

I don't think we should assume meta reasons for its destruction quite yet.  

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plus if say one of the forsaken got ahold of the CK the light could stop him no matter what.

 

Maybe, but wouldn't Moridin have told Semi to grab it when she had the chance? 

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On the epigram:

 

At the end of time,

when the many become one,

the last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

 

I still think all the worlds are beginning to merge as I stated before even seeing this based on the ghosts walking. I could be very wrong, but what else would this be talking about?

 

 

On Verin:

Sigh... I knew I should have stopped reading this thread until I read the book. I am just going to pretend I didn't read that so I can be surprised when it comes up in the book.

 

Has this been answered yet?  ???

 

It seems to refer to Rand merging with the memories of all his previous lives.  I'm quite excited to see how Rand's going to be in ToM mentally and emotionally. 

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On Graendal being alive. I believe she is. I'm not fond of the disipating compulsion theory though. What if the balefire did not destroy here and therefore destroy the Compulsion, but destroyed the palace and therefore destroy the compulsion. If the palace was destroyed by balefire and had not existed for possibly weeks due to the massive amount of balefire, then Graendal may not have been there and there would have been no palace for Ram. to enter at all and that is why the compulsion was never placed on him.

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Sheikh chilli ar eyou serious?

 

Did you even see what the power of the CK was doing to Rand?

 

Did you think about the fact that Rand left the Domani to starve when all their food spoiled?

 

Rand won a great victory as did Egwene, but it was not the war and they are still down in the count.

 

There is still a time where Perrin must be there or something terrible will happen to Rand.

 

Rand still does not know how to seal the DO away for good though he is getting some clues now.

 

Mazrim Taim and the Black Tower are doing who knows what in Rand's absence and we have yet to see that resolved. Remember that they have many many more channelers than the WT so if even 75% of them go over to the DO, willingly or unwillingly, Rand's forces are in serious trouble.

 

Rand has still not made peace with the Seanchan and with the recent attack on the WT it seems less and less likely.

 

I will say this much, I think the DO's forces are not in as great a position as they had been at the start of the book, but they have not been hit as hard as they could have. Ishy's false prophecies are still believed by the Seanchan for one thing. We STILL have not seen Demandred and he has said that his rule is secure and they will be read. The Aiel are at odds with Rand over the way he has been treating them though they are still following him. Over half of the BA escaped. There were close to 200 and I believe the book said about 110 escaped. Mesaana is almost certainly still in the tower. Graendal may not be dead. Rand has touched the TP thus opening him to its addiction. He won't work with the Sea Folk, instead making demands of them. Rand told Nynaeve he was basically abandoning Lan and using him as a distraction. I think the Light is in almost as bad a position as it was at the start of the book, but there is hope now. At the start of this book hope was almost gone. It was nonexistent about halfway through the book. The WT is whole, yes, but Mesaana is sure to do something. Rand just destroyed the CK, but I would not be surprised to see a showdown with some male channelers after he used that much Saidin. I mean, that had to be visible to any male channeler across Randland.

 

 

the kal was just a sangreal. it does not corrupt. otherwise every single angreal and sangreal ought to turn every channeler crazy. the kal accomplished one of the blows to dark one. it cleansed saidin. it was precious weapon and the most powerful in randland. and rand destroys it. foolish but understandable from an author point of you. you need to level the playing field and destroying the light's greatest weapon certainly accomplished that. at least the shadow can compete for a change

 

 

as for the current state of things. you can keep the hunger, food spoiling and other irrelevant thinsg. when i finsihed TGS the shadow lost 2 forsaken, lost the black ajah machinations, white tower reunited and more importantly lost the corrupting influence in rand al thor.

 

 

their only sole consolation is that the kal has been destroyed and even that was done by rand not the shadow. which begs the question.  how many of the dark one's plans are going to unravel before the last battle begins?

 

The angreal's (sa and ter) don't corrupt, thats a given, what corrupts is the power, and the amount gained through the devices. I'm not referring to the taint either, power just corrupts, whether it be the source, or power in our every day lives.

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On Graendal being alive. I believe she is. I'm not fond of the disipating compulsion theory though. What if the balefire did not destroy here and therefore destroy the Compulsion, but destroyed the palace and therefore destroy the compulsion. If the palace was destroyed by balefire and had not existed for possibly weeks due to the massive amount of balefire, then Graendal may not have been there and there would have been no palace for Ram. to enter at all and that is why the compulsion was never placed on him.

 

I don't think BF works that way.  It only burns out threads in the pattern.  I seem to recall during an assassination attempt on Rand he thought about the difference between burning out an archer and burning the arrow with BF.  The first could have saved the Maiden who died.  The second wouldn't do anything.

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re: the Choedan Kal:

 

On a meta-level, it needed to happen because I suspect that at the end, the Light's going to have the advantage of working in circles anyway, and the CK also would make it comic. Plus, Rand having a megaweapon is boring.

 

Within the story, I think Rand realized that much power was too much temptation to do things like nuke all of Ebou Dar out of existence just for the sake of stopping the Seanchan. With Saidin cleansed, there's just not a need for that kind of power any more, and the availability of it is too much -- Rand just did a unilateral nuclear disarmament, rather than be tempted further to do things that could end up Breaking the World anew.

 

I agree it could've been explained/supported a bit better in the text though and seemed a little sudden.

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Did Moiraine know that Verin was Black Ajah?  In her last letter, didn't she say to be as suspicious of Verin as of Alvarin?

Yup.  

 

Nope.  ;)

 

It's strongly implied in retrospect but there's no definite proof that Moiraine knew (or knows) that Verin was BA. 

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re: the Choedan Kal:

 

On a meta-level, it needed to happen because I suspect that at the end, the Light's going to have the advantage of working in circles anyway, and the CK also would make it comic. Plus, Rand having a megaweapon is boring.

 

I have a hard time believing that the authors are going to remove the Choden Kal just because its boring.

 

Destroying the Choden Kal ... had to be done.  Even the forsaken were afraid of them.  Too powerful.  Never should have been created.  Were never tested.  Should be destroyed.  Those were the thoughts of the forsaken regarding the Choden Kal.  

 

The access key was portable.  This is not a nuclear bomb which you need special equipment to handle.  This is a weapon that anyone could pick up and carry away.  Can you imagine the Choden Kal in the hands of Taim?  

 

I think Rand can to understand he was not going to defeat the Dark with the Choden Kal.  It is not just sheer power that will win this war.  It will need something else.  Once he realized he won't need the Choden Kal to win the Last Battle, he does the only sensible thing and destroys it.  It is too powerful to risk falling into the wrong hands.

 

 

On another matter ... Callandor.  Is it possible Callandor is an angreal for the True Power?

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I don't think anyone would need an angreal for the True Power.  When Rand seizes the True Power he mentions that he was holding as much as when he uses the Choden Kal. 

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On another matter ... Callandor.  Is it possible Callandor is an angreal for the True Power?

 

No. You would have had to have all those AS who made it be darkfriends with intimate knowledge of how the TP works. Not only that, the DO would have to have given rand permission in tSR to use the TP, which he had no reason to. Lastly, Rand would have realized the dif between the tp and saidin then...when he reached through callandor he felt the taint and the sweetness of saidin. The TP, described in tGS is very different. I do not think there is an angreal for the TP: most forsaken barely ever used it, and if one of them were able to make angreal in this age we would have heard.

 

 

Edit: Sterling, I don't think he holds as much as with the CK, I think it is the inherent nature of the TP that makes him feel like he is all powerful. I do not think he can hold more of it that he could Saidin.

 

 

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Hello everyone. First post here. Long time member of Wotmania under a different name (in use here already). First off, I would like to say, the book was incredible. I read it much faster than I had intended since I could not put it down. Brandon Sanderson was/is definitely the right man for the job in my opinion.

The only complaint I found with the book was Mat's chapters. He just didnt seem the same Mat who has been my favorite character in the books for quite some time now. I understand the idea that it was his reaction to being recently married, but I dont buy it. In my humble opinion, most of Mat's dialogue seems to take place in his own head with the occasional comment to those around him. And Talmanes, holy cow, when did he become one of the most talkative characters in the series... Talmanes and Mat together were like 2 chattering magpies. After the Last Battle they should consider joining the women's circle back at Two Rivers.

The first thing that sticks out in my mind is the Callandor and 3 becoming one. My first instinct was "Ah, thats how he will settle the Rand/Lews/Moridin mixture in his head." But that appears to be tossed out the window at the end when Rand and Lews combined anyway.

Destroying the CK imo was what others said. Rand is definitely too unstable at this point to have the ability to destroy entire cities without a 2nd thought.

I can't see how Graendal possibly expected Rand/Lews Therin to rain balefire down on her entire fortress killing her and everyone else inside. My instict says she is dead.

Why would Moridin tell Rand balefire is the only way to ensure the forsaken didnt return? Because he is Moridin. Let Rand cull the competition. Moridin would rather see the Dragon survive until the end then all of the other forsaken combined.

Now, Semi's escape. The DO definitely was involved in her release, which means he also knew where it would lead her to. Now I am wondering, did Rand actually tap into the true power directly from the DO, or did he use his link with Moridin to tap into Moridin's ability to use the TP. I am most certain in either's opinion (Moridin and the DO) having Rand taint his soul by using the TP was well worth the sacrifice of Semi.

 

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Got the book on Tuesday 7 PM read till Wednesday 10 AM missed work yesterday and one word Awesome.

 

Verin though I was spoiled the chapter just took my breath away. It was one of the perfectly written chapters. Her dorkiness was so Awesome that I got blown away by it, will miss her character more than anything else in the last 2 books.

 

Though hope we will see one more last bit of Awesome verinism in the letter she left with Mat.

 

Rand man he was scary in the book. When he wove bale fire towards Tam it didn't feel unnatural. It felt like he is perfectly capable of doing it at that time. The dark skies analogy depicting Rand's mood and the sunshine after he realizes he his mistakes was a good analogy. Overall "A" for the book though wish Robert Jordan himself was here to finish the books.

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When he wove bale fire towards Thom it didn't feel unnatural.

It was Tam

 

Was typing fast so made the mistake. Thanks for pointing edited it.

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I am under the impression that his ability to touch the TP came from his link to Moridin. I'm not sure the DO could disallow Rand access to the TP without cutting off Moridin as well. He might be able to, but at this point there is no telling.

 

When Semi was set free I thought she was gonna go after Cadsuane first.

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It doesn't exist. As with many things in the review you are talking of, this is false.

 

I've finished reading the book now, and would get a kick out of reading some false reviews.  Would you mind PMing me (or just saying here if you don't mind) which false review you're talking about?

Thanks!

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Agreed about RJ. I feel like he could have penned alot of this book... but most of it still seemed kind of, well, rough. It's almost as though it missed a final edit (which is probably true) but they wanted to throw in RJ's words on certain subjects unspoiled.

And I hate to say it, but I did find some of Egwene's speeches rambling. A couple of flash backs to Terry Goodkind's SoT's where his main characters ALWAYS had long, rambling speeches that would magically open the eyes of EVERYONE around them.

Not that I hate Egwene like this. In another thread, someone said they should inscribe "Badass" on Egwene's GS ring. Totally agree.

Totally missed Lan, Elayne, Galad, Loial and other Characters in this book... I found those four had some of the most interesting POV's in KoD (minus some of Elayne's issues... I just wanna see Rand's face when he realizes he knocked up his Queen, ahahahha).

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It doesn't exist. As with many things in the review you are talking of, this is false.

 

I've finished reading the book now, and would get a kick out of reading some false reviews.  Would you mind PMing me (or just saying here if you don't mind) which false review you're talking about?

Thanks!

 

Last quote on page 44 by obcessedfan4eva had me chuckling as it was obviously written by someone who claimed to have read the book but had just trawled lots of spoiler reviews picked up some of the truth but also some complete rubbish.

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awesome read.

 

when Rand used the TP I was in shock.  I'm going to have to go back and figure out if the TP comes directly from the DO or if it can only be used by the DO's minions becuase they are the only ones who ever learned how to use it.  We know that the Forsaken and DF's can only use the TP with the DO's permission, but are we sure that the DO's blessing is a requirement for any channeler to use the TP?

 

Verin's scene was both cool and annoying at the same time.  You'd think that with the level of dishonesty endemic to the DO's camp he would have tightened up the loopholes of that oath.  It's not like we haven't seen characters renounce the DO and come back to the light before,  is this really the first time one of the BA has attempted to find redemption in this manner?

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

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