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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

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This attitude makes no sense. This is a spoiler specific thread inside a spoiler specific forum- you have to have acknowledged twice that you want to know to be in here' date=' *and* actively read it. You are not responsible for other people's self-control. They are.[/quote']

Agreed.  I have a problem with dropping hints though, and Isa has (along with another person) inspired a really evil teaser in spoiler tags in my sig at Theoryland.  I'm going to change it now, but I have had it up for several hours today.   ;D  

 

If you are so childish to want to spoil other people, than don't blame it on me.

If you are annoyed at someone, that doesn't justify spoiling things to other people.

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So that's two Mistress of Novices Black, Sheriam and Mareen(sp) in New Spring.  What of Tianna and Silviana, since she was Mistress of Novices.

 

Wasn't Verin Mistress of Novices during part of Moiraine and Suian's training?

 

I believe that there was an RJ quote about Black Ajah Mistress of Novices.

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So that's two Mistress of Novices Black, Sheriam and Mareen(sp) in New Spring.  What of Tianna and Silviana, since she was Mistress of Novices.

How about the Keepers of the Chronicles? Sheriam, Alviarin and I wouldn't be surprised that Gitara was as well (because she sent Luc to the Blight to become Slayer).

 

hmm no... In her foretelling she says: "Light help us, Light help the world."

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So that's two Mistress of Novices Black, Sheriam and Mareen(sp) in New Spring.  What of Tianna and Silviana, since she was Mistress of Novices.

Wasn't Verin Mistress of Novices during part of Moiraine and Suian's training?

 

I believe that there was an RJ quote about Black Ajah Mistress of Novices.

No. Merean was and she was BA.

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So that's two Mistress of Novices Black, Sheriam and Mareen(sp) in New Spring.  What of Tianna and Silviana, since she was Mistress of Novices.

How about the Keepers of the Chronicles? Sheriam, Alviarin and I wouldn't be surprised that Gitara was as well (because she sent Luc to the Blight to become Slayer).

 

hmm no... In her foretelling she says: "Light help us, Light help the world."

 

I agree she was not Black, after all she was integral in Rand's conception, but I would not be surprised to learn of others.

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I'd assume the BA would try to get its own in that job.  MoN's see lot's of novices and accepted, would be one good way to tell if said girl was right for recruitment.

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1) Sheriam made the choice willingly. She thinks back on how she thought she could gain power from it.

 

2) Nelasia Merhan - Brown, Teramina - Green, Jamilila Norsish. Egwene notes that if Mesaana knew how to fool the oath rod she could still be in the tower.

 

3) I haven't really been following this closely enough to answer.

 

--------

 

 

Well, I think we just saw the Dragon being reborn at the end of this book. I can't find the quote right now, but I believe it is Demandred who mentions the the radiance of the sun announcing his rebirth. Well, we just saw that. Also, remember Gitara Moroso's Foretelling. "Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!" Well, Rand was sitting in the snow. He was crying like the thunder. Normally, you don't shine like the sun. Now, if you happened to be holding the full power of the male CK then you might. I think the second half of her Foretelling had to do with what she just saw.

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Okay, so that means that Janya wasn't Black.  We already pretty much knew that she wasn't, because Alviarin would have made sure she was called to depose Elaida if she had been, but it's nice to have confirmation.  I suppose Egwene could have simply neglected to reveal a Black Sitter in her mind, but it seems unlikely.

I don't think Janya is Black, since Egwene would have mentioned it.

 

However, at the end of the book, only 12 Sitters remain among the Rebels. Six, one from each Ajah, went to the Black Tower as part of a delegation and have suspiciously not returned. Add to that that Rand may still seek a truce with the Seanchan, no matter how they damaged the Tower, and I can see some very legit causes for Egwene to be absolutely enraged at Rand.

 

I am curious about three more things at the moment:

 

1.  Is there any indication that Sheriam was turned or not in her POV? Or did she join willingly?

 

2.  It is said that the identity of Mesaana has been narrowed down to three people - who are those three people?

 

3.  Is there any more information on the Ajah Head conspiracy?  I noticed we get two points of view (Jesse and Adelorna) but I didn't make it to either of those.

1. Sheriam was not turned. She, however, never wished for the DO to be free. She thought she could join it for political advancement in the Tower. Something like a club for women who ignored the rules for their own profit. Fool woman!

I still shudder to think what would have happened if Siuan hadn't been stopped by Moiraine from including Sheriam in the search for the DR. One of the leaders of the BA (yes, this is confirmed) with full knwledge of the Rebirth!

 

2. Three very unlikely suspects. Discount them. Egwene is on the right track. She thinks Mesaana fooled the OR. It could be. All of them swore that they were not Darkfriends. Maybe she thinks being Chosen is different from being a DF, and so was able to take the Oaths and say so.

 

3. We were mostly right, as we see in Jesse's PoV. They wanted, essentially, to be the powers behind the throne. they saw weakness in Elaida and sought to capitalize. They realize their mistake, and are instrumental in Egwene's rise.

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2. Three very unlikely suspects. Discount them. Egwene is on the right track. She thinks Mesaana fooled the OR. It could be. All of them swore that they were not Darkfriends. Maybe she thinks being Chosen is different from being a DF, and so was able to take the Oaths and say so.

 

Good point here. Mesaana would most definitely say "I am not Black Ajah" and "I am not a Darkfriend" and it would be completely honest.

 

The other thing is, nobody ever considers that she might be a Novice or Accepted. Were they all tested on the oath rod? I know Nicola was but no others were mentioned that I recall.

 

Something I noticed was that Shemerin showed up right before Sheriam was visited by Mesaana, but I'm 97% sure that was just to mess with our heads.

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2. Three very unlikely suspects. Discount them. Egwene is on the right track. She thinks Mesaana fooled the OR. It could be. All of them swore that they were not Darkfriends. Maybe she thinks being Chosen is different from being a DF, and so was able to take the Oaths and say so.

 

Good point here. Mesaana would most definitely say "I am not Black Ajah" and "I am not a Darkfriend" and it would be completely honest.

 

The other thing is, nobody ever considers that she might be a Novice or Accepted. Were they all tested on the oath rod? I know Nicola was but no others were mentioned that I recall.

 

Something I noticed was that Shemerin showed up right before Sheriam was visited by Mesaana, but I'm 97% sure that was just to mess with our heads.

 

When Mesaana met with Shadar Horan she was not wearing white.

 

Please refresh my memory, who was Shemerin?

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Ok, here's my newest Mesaana theory. Who is the only other Sister to flee the Tower and NOT be on Verin's list? That would be Evanellein. She was part of the group to depose Siuan.

 

Otherwise, I think we need to look at the Accepted and Novices.

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If you are so childish to want to spoil other people, than don't blame it on me.

If you are annoyed at someone, that doesn't justify spoiling things to other people.

I didn't spoil anything for anyone.  Like was said before, if something is hidden behind a spoiler warning, and a person highlights it to read it, then they have consciously chosen to spoil themselves.  :)  I was just bragging, because I win and you lose, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

 

Also, Shemerin was the Yellow that Elaida demoted to Accepted. 

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And, I have found a very, very nice Mesaana theory that someone came up with. See the Prologue and Chapters 1-2 thread.

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If that would be the case for Mesaana I highly doubt she'll be a novice. else she wont have that bold claim with Moridin. I'm guessing if she's not an Aes Sedai then probably a popular Accepted among the Novices and Accepted perhaps? But I doubt that will be possible, again with her bold claim.

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Masuri is with Perrin, Mesaana is in the Tower.  I don't see how that theory is even close to being credible, despite all of these little 'clues'.

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Terez: you haven't even finished the book and than you claim 'this book proofs that LTT was a construct'.

You don't even say : As far as I have read it still seems like LTT was a contruct, but I will wait and see what happens.

 

That means your mind is set and you are not even willing to entertain the thought that something might happen that changes your mind. It's very immature to discount something, if you haven't even read the whole book. You can only claim something if you have read the whole book.

 

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Terez: you haven't even finished the book and than you claim 'this book proofs that LTT was a construct'.

You don't even say : As far as I have read it still seems like LTT was a contruct, but I will wait and see what happens.

It does - that one quote validates the argument that the constructors have been making all this time.  If something different happened that would change my mind, I figured you'd provide a quote that shows that.  But you didn't - the only quotes you provided support my case.  But the quote that I provided PROVES my case, no matter what the context is - Rand and Lews Therin are not two men, and never have been.  Your interpretation of the Lews Therin situations is flawed because you can't accept that - you're still trying to pretend as if Lews Therin was another man, talking to Rand, when Rand clearly says that they were not two men, and never had been. 

 

And now you've violated Tam's spoiler rules by starting a new thread before the book is released, and putting a spoiler in the title, that anyone can see from the main index page.

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Terez; you cannot claim to  know what i am thinking. You always said that the voice was an illusion and not the real LTT.

I always said it was the real LTT from the age of legends. We never denied that Rand was a reincarnation of LTT.

So no they were never two persons. They were two personalities. Thats different. Rand had the personality from LTT in his head. But LTT was the past incarnation, so in a sense he is Rand.

 

You just twist my words to  make it into something it is not. Plus you deny what you have said before.

 

 

It's weird that you consider: Debate LTT - Rand a spoiler. It says nothing about what happened or that if something happened.....

You are just pissed off that you couldn't start your own thread with wrong assumptions about what I believed.... :)

 

 

 

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Terez; you cannot claim to  know what i am thinking. You always said that the voice was an illusion and not the real LTT.

The voice was indeed an illusion - the voice is what gave the impression that there were two different people in Rand's head.  Obviously, that impression was false, since they are not two men, and never have been.

 

I always said it was the real LTT from the age of legends. We never denied that Rand was a reincarnation of LTT.

You did indeed deny that, because you were a member of the two soul faction before RJ disproved it.  To deny that they share a soul is to deny that Rand is Lews Therin re-incarnated, or to misunderstand the concept of reincarnation so badly as to make you look like an idiot.  

 

So no they were never two persons. They were two personalities. Thats different. Rand had the personality from LTT in his head. But LTT was the past incarnation' date=' so in a sense he is Rand.[/quote']

Rand still has that personality in his head.  But that personality was never a conscious being, like you always insisted it was.  It was just a part of Rand.  

 

You just twist my words to  make it into something it is not. Plus you deny what you have said before.

No, I don't.

 

Oh, and I can still start my own thread, and will.  ;)

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204 black sisters out of about 500 total is a huge number. no wonder nobody trusts aes sedai :o

 

i would like to know how verin died/revealed the names.

 

The oath sworn to the DO in part states that "I will serve him until the hour of my death."

 

She negated the oath by taking a poison that she knew would kill her within one hour. This is how she was able to reveal the Black Ajah and betray the DO during the hour of her death.

This definitely keeps with the Aes Sedai tradition of weaseling out of a sworn oath.

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It's interesting to reevaluate her actions, knowing that she had to justify to herself that everything she did actually served the Shadow. 

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You did indeed deny that, because you were a member of the two soul faction before RJ disproved it.  To deny that they share a soul is to deny that Rand is Lews Therin re-incarnated, or to misunderstand the concept of reincarnation so badly as to make you look like an idiot.  

 

Or because we felt that two souls explained or said clearly that the voice of LTT was real. That was the point of it.

And again you interpreted my support of the two souls theory as something that is not true. For me it was always important to note that the voice was real. That he was as LTT in the age of legends.

 

Rand still has that personality in his head.  But that personality was never a conscious being, like you always insisted it was.  It was just a part of Rand.  

 

Why don't you understand that conscious or not had absolutely no meaning for me??? It was more important to proof that the voice was the real LTT. That has always been my view.

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