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The Gholam?


breakneckwalrus
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Brandon said there are two ways of destroying Cuendillar.

One is with TP, the other is RAFO.

Presumably the RAFO method has been used since we've seen several seals breaking up without TP channeled at them.

 

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RAFO = read and find out... or were you just kidding about that?

 

Sharaman, can you link to that quote from Brandon re: TP destroying cuendillar?

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the TP can destroy cuendillar which is immune to the one power because it burns the actual pattern. No doubt a Gholam could be killed by similiar means, as it is still part of the pattern also.

So it seems established that the True Power can destory cuendillar.  There is still a chance the flows will not touch the Gholam.  I have no idea how likely this is since we have never seen it but I don't think it is likely that we will either.  Only Rand would be likely to use the True Power on the Gholam because Ishamael (or any other Foresaken) would just tell the Gholam to go kill someone.  Unless the Gholam achieves its goal of freedom but it would still keep after Mat before trying to kill the Foresaken.  What is the probability that Rand would be there to use the True Power on the Gholam?  It seems much more likely that what will defeat the Gholam are from the Gholam's weaknesses, the weakness of Mat's medallion are the weaknesses of the Gholam.  Maybe the True Power can touch the Gholam but we know a lightning bolt made with the One Power can.

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the TP can destroy cuendillar which is immune to the one power because it burns the actual pattern. No doubt a Gholam could be killed by similiar means, as it is still part of the pattern also.

So it seems established that the True Power can destory cuendillar.  There is still a chance the flows will not touch the Gholam.  I have no idea how likely this is since we have never seen it but I don't think it is likely that we will either.  Only Rand would be likely to use the True Power on the Gholam because Ishamael (or any other Foresaken) would just tell the Gholam to go kill someone.  Unless the Gholam achieves its goal of freedom but it would still keep after Mat before trying to kill the Foresaken.  What is the probability that Rand would be there to use the True Power on the Gholam?  It seems much more likely that what will defeat the Gholam are from the Gholam's weaknesses, the weakness of Mat's medallion are the weaknesses of the Gholam.  Maybe the True Power can touch the Gholam but we know a lightning bolt made with the One Power can.

 

This is just conjecture, but I think it makes too much sense for it to be any other way than what we have theorized.  If I were Aginor, and I was building a monster for the express purpose of tracking and killing channelers like me, I would build in a weakness.  However, it would be a weakness that only I/my party know about or can exploit. 

 

That way, if my monster, or something like it were cut loose on my army, I could destroy it, but the same couldn't be said for the targets I sent it after.  The True Power fits the mold perfectly.  As Aginor, I would have no reason to believe that anyone but fellow Chosen can use the True Power, although Rand might have changed that (not too clear on that).

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Shadowspawn cannot pass through Gateways, so we can assume the Gholam cannot follow Mat through any portals into Finnland.  The Tower of Ghenjei isn't as obvious a gateway as Travelling or the twisted doorframes, but I have a feeling Shadowspawn still can't enter.

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Shadowspawn cannot pass through Gateways, so we can assume the Gholam cannot follow Mat through any portals into Finnland.  The Tower of Ghenjei isn't as obvious a gateway as Travelling or the twisted doorframes, but I have a feeling Shadowspawn still can't enter.

I would assume so just from remembering Moraines dire warnings about not mentioning any topic that touches the shadow

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I would assume so just from remembering Moraines dire warnings about not mentioning any topic that touches the shadow

That for sure applies to the Aelfinn.  So far we have not been told if it also applies to the Eelfinn.

 

Shadowspawn cannot pass through Gateways

For sure Trollocs and Myrddraal.  The books have not yet shown with the other Shadowspawn.

 

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RAFO = read and find out... or were you just kidding about that?

 

Sharaman, can you link to that quote from Brandon re: TP destroying cuendillar?

 

It's in one of the sticky Q&A threads on this board itself.

Sorry don't have the time to search.

 

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A few points to clarify things for people.

 

1. The Domination Band is cuendillar. The bracelets survived the balefire that killed Semirhage and Elza.

 

2. The True Power can indeed destroy cuendillar. Not only did Brandon state this, and we see it with the Domination Band, we have something of a precedent in the seals. Whether the Dark One uses the True Power directly, in the sense of channeling it, it's power is his nature, and his nature is what led to the breaking of the seals.

 

3. The above issue is apparently sustained also in the notes, which also state that there is another way aside from the True Power to destroy cuendillar. This also has been foreshadowed in the fact that it is stated that channeling One Power into cuendillar makes it stronger--you cannot make something which is indestructable stronger, ergo the Age of Legenders knew a way to destroy it. A way that Heartstone was made more resistant to by the process of channeling into it.

 

4. Shadowspawn are not bound by a Binder like the Oath Rod--they are bound by the Dark One to obey those with the Chosen Mark, which is a sort of mark made on the Soul of the Dark One's Chosen. This is true of Gholam as well. For clarity, the Chosen Mark is a sort of imprint the Dark One puts on the souls of his high chosen. RJ describes it thus.

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

It's not stated anywhere that Callandor is cuendillar

 

No. That is one of the three theories to explain how Callandor split the liquid white fire Ishamael channeled at Rand in tDR. The other two theories is that despite the very similar descriptions what Ishamael made was not Balefire, or that Rand on the spot came up with some heretofore unknown weave that could split balefire.

 

The cuendillar argument seems the strongest to my mind, but you are correct, it is never stated.

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I would assume so just from remembering Moraines dire warnings about not mentioning any topic that touches the shadow

That for sure applies to the Aelfinn.  So far we have not been told if it also applies to the Eelfinn.

 

 

With as closely linked and intertwined as the two races are, and the fact that so far all of the traditions, quirks, and oolies that we've seen about them apply to both, I would imagine that things related to the shadow apply to them both.

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A few points to clarify things for people.

 

1. The Domination Band is cuendillar. The bracelets survived the balefire that killed Semirhage and Elza.

 

Rand was channeling TP at them.  They weren't hit directly by the TP balefire, though.  Brandon explains that the reason the  bracelets survived was because they weren't implicitly a part of the individual persons, and wouldn't be destroyed utterly like their clothes when hit by balefire.

 

However, we do see for a fact that the original is cuendillar when Jeaine Caide uses the balefire rod trying to kill Nynaeve in Tanchico.  A stream hits the podium, but the seal and the band both survive.

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It's not stated anywhere that Callandor is cuendillar

 

No. That is one of the three theories to explain how Callandor split the liquid white fire Ishamael channeled at Rand in tDR. The other two theories is that despite the very similar descriptions what Ishamael made was not Balefire, or that Rand on the spot came up with some heretofore unknown weave that could split balefire.

 

The cuendillar argument seems the strongest to my mind, but you are correct, it is never stated.

Hmm, i don't know about that tbh. Doesn't cuebdillar have a specific look, like some sort of white stone??? From all descriptions of Callandor it is made of a sort of crystalish material. Is it even possible to have a sa'angreal that is also cuendillar?

 

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I would assume so just from remembering Moraines dire warnings about not mentioning any topic that touches the shadow

That for sure applies to the Aelfinn.  So far we have not been told if it also applies to the Eelfinn.

With as closely linked and intertwined as the two races are, and the fact that so far all of the traditions, quirks, and oolies that we've seen about them apply to both, I would imagine that things related to the shadow apply to them both.

Their different functions might be an indicator that this is different.  (Aelfinn answer questions; Eelfinn grant requests.)

 

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A few points to clarify things for people.

 

4. Shadowspawn are not bound by a Binder like the Oath Rod--they are bound by the Dark One to obey those with the Chosen Mark, which is a sort of mark made on the Soul of the Dark One's Chosen. This is true of Gholam as well. For clarity, the Chosen Mark is a sort of imprint the Dark One puts on the souls of his high chosen. RJ describes it thus.

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

 

  Its unknown specifically how a Gholam is constrained by the Chosen and the Dark One himself. Gholam were a created creature, they were not breed according to Robert Jordan (TOR question of the week answer), by Aginor later known as Osan'gar. A Mark alone would not stop a Gholam from killing a person, there's something else unknown constraining a Gholam.  This can be deduced in part, because a Mark did not stop a Gholam from trying to kill Graendal during the War of Power (LoC book).

 

 

Besides there are no scenes in the series expressly showing that a Gholam has any Mark at all, that idea is only a decent hypothesis.  If the Gholam does have a Mark, who gave it? Aginor? The Dark One himself? Or someone else? 

 

 

  Almost total obedience...that is one ingredient that both a Gholam and a Myrddraal have in common, along with an "itch" which senses Saidar, True Power (and Saidin I assume too). Gholam, Myrddraal are related oddly enough. Yet one Myrddraal was turned to Padan Fain Mordeth's side in Two Rivers area, and a male Gholam felt constrained & conflicted which orders to follow in Ebou Dar: Mat or the channelers at the Kin's retreat.  The point is Myrddraal can disobey orders, and Gholam had to make a choice, without additional orders. 

 

  A Gholam in some ways has a his own, Noal Charin type moment*** in Ebou Dar:

 

       

Source: The Path of Daggers book - Chapter 2 "Unweaving" - one male Gholam's point in view, in Ebou Dar, just after Moridin left a room with Madic's bloody body on the ground.

 

Its nostrils flared again, though it was not by scent that it tracked those who could channel. The One Power had been used below, and miles to the north. To follow, or not? The man who had wounded it was not with them; it had made sure of that before leaving the high vantage place. The one who commanded it wanted the man who had wounded it dead perhaps as much as he did the women, but the women were an easier target. The women had been named, too, and for the time being, it was constrained. For its entire existence it had been compelled to obey one or another human, but its mind held the concept of not being constrained. It must follow the women. It wanted to follow. The moment of death, when it felt the ability to channel vanish along with life, produced ecstasy. Rapture. But it was hungry, too, and there was time. Where they could run, it could follow. Settling fluidly beside the mangled body, it began to feed. Fresh blood, hot blood, was a necessity, but human blood always held the sweetest savor.

 

  Being "compelled to obey", is not the same thing as what Alviarin's Mark is from Shaidar Haran. Rand al'Thor was Marked by Lanfear at Falme, and he does not obey her....  Verin Sedai took the Black Ajah oaths, yet she was still fought the Shadow in her secret work over 70 years before finally betraying the Shadow openly to Egwene in tGS book.  No whatever is compelling a Gholam's behavior and action is stronger than a simple "Mark".

 

 

  Yet whatever is the source of this compulsion applied to Gholam to obey, whether Oath Rod/Binder or Compulsion weave applied in the TAR or something else, a Gholam wants to be free of it. Freedom to drink anyone and everyone's blood....

 

 

 

 

  ***Oh, yes...regarding Noal Charin, I was referring to moment below and thinking of another one in KoD, Chapter 6 too:

 

Source: A Crown of Swords book - Chapter 17 "The Truimph of Logic" - Noal Charin pov as an old man spying on a bunch of Darkfriends & two Black Ajah in Ebou Dar

 

Sitting on an upended barrel in the sparse coolness of a narrow, shaded alley, he studied the house across the busy street. Suddenly he realized he was touching his head again. He did not have a headache, but his head felt . . . peculiar . . . sometimes. Most often when he thought of what he could not remember.

 

...(skipped 3 paragraphs)

 

He would stay here until dark, he decided, then see whether he could find Carridin’s pretty little killer again.

 

Once again he pulled his hand down from his head. Sooner or later, he would remember. He did not have much time left, but it was all he did have. He remembered that much.

 

 

Memories.

 

Noal and Gholam each have been subject to a set of constraints in the story, is there a difference at all in the results?  ???

Whether Noal by Ishamael or six Gholam by Aginor?

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Dida, the Mark is not something the gholam have, but something the DO gives his Chosen. It makes all of his creatures, including gholam, obey them. It's not like the effect of the Binder, disobeying won't make them choke to death. They just do it because the DO wills it so. So you see, Graendal probably mishandled the gholam, or another might have sent it to kill her. After all, it didn't succeed, so she might have been able to exert some measure of control over it, thereby saving herself.

 

And what the gholam thought could just mean it had one human or another as its superior for its entire existence, but it still wishes things weren't so.

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I just read that sequence when she thinks about Aginors madness and I dont think a gholam tried to kill her

 

it could easily be something else, the only thing that links her thought to a gholam is her thinking along the lines "only a madman would dream up something like a gholam"

 

she could have ran afoul of some other shadowspawn that went rampant

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I just read that sequence when she thinks about Aginors madness and I dont think a gholam tried to kill her

 

it could easily be something else, the only thing that links her thought to a gholam is her thinking along the lines "only a madman would dream up something like a gholam"

 

she could have ran afoul of some other shadowspawn that went rampant

 

This thought has never occurred to me.  The Forsaken are uncomfortable with the gholam, because they could conceivably be used to murder them, but only if the Dark One withdrew his protection.  There's no evidence that she was ever attacked by one, or even that she had any more association with them than a simple knowledge of their existence.  If one had attacked her, though, the Chosen mark probably wouldn't have given her the protection she has in the current era because there were more candidates for Chosen during the AoL.

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I just read that sequence when she thinks about Aginors madness and I dont think a gholam tried to kill her

 

it could easily be something else, the only thing that links her thought to a gholam is her thinking along the lines "only a madman would dream up something like a gholam"

 

she could have ran afoul of some other shadowspawn that went rampant

 

This thought has never occurred to me.  The Forsaken are uncomfortable with the gholam, because they could conceivably be used to murder them, but only if the Dark One withdrew his protection.  There's no evidence that she was ever attacked by one, or even that she had any more association with them than a simple knowledge of their existence.  If one had attacked her, though, the Chosen mark probably wouldn't have given her the protection she has in the current era because there were more candidates for Chosen during the AoL.

 

Graendal does have a memory of a nasty encounter with a gholam. We have no idea whether it tried to kill her and how she escaped its ministrations. I think it's in PoD or CoT.

 

 

 

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Quote from: Luckers on March 09, 2010, 04:27:33 AM

A few points to clarify things for people.

 

1. The Domination Band is cuendillar. The bracelets survived the balefire that killed Semirhage and Elza.

 

 

Rand was channeling TP at them.  They weren't hit directly by the TP balefire, though.  Brandon explains that the reason the  bracelets survived was because they weren't implicitly a part of the individual persons, and wouldn't be destroyed utterly like their clothes when hit by balefire.

 

They were, in fact--much like any clothing or jewellry upon a person when they are balefired. What Brandon speaks of is why they weren't moved by the time altering affects of balefire--they simply dropped to the floor, as opposed to appearing where they should have been lacking Elza and Semirhage moving them in the moments in time that Elza and Semirhage were removed from the pattern. They weren't altered in time because they weren't implicitly a part of the individual person, and thus dropped from the position in which they were in when Rand balefired their wearers.

 

Nevertheless that they survived the balefire proves they were cuendillar.

 

Quote from: Luckers on March 09, 2010, 04:27:33 AM

 

 

Quote

It's not stated anywhere that Callandor is cuendillar

 

No. That is one of the three theories to explain how Callandor split the liquid white fire Ishamael channeled at Rand in tDR. The other two theories is that despite the very similar descriptions what Ishamael made was not Balefire, or that Rand on the spot came up with some heretofore unknown weave that could split balefire.

 

The cuendillar argument seems the strongest to my mind, but you are correct, it is never stated.

 

Hmm, i don't know about that tbh. Doesn't cuebdillar have a specific look, like some sort of white stone??? From all descriptions of Callandor it is made of a sort of crystalish material. Is it even possible to have a sa'angreal that is also cuendillar?

 

No, it does not. The majority of known cuendillar is of the white stone, but the seals contain black stone cuendillar, and the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band appeared as a metal, not stone at all.

 

So know. The standard type of cuendillar is that white stone, but cuendillar is not limited to this--and given the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band are ter'angreal as well as cuendillar, we do have a basis to suggest a sa'angreal may also be cuendillar.

 

Quote from: Luckers on March 09, 2010, 04:27:33 AM

A few points to clarify things for people.

 

4. Shadowspawn are not bound by a Binder like the Oath Rod--they are bound by the Dark One to obey those with the Chosen Mark, which is a sort of mark made on the Soul of the Dark One's Chosen. This is true of Gholam as well. For clarity, the Chosen Mark is a sort of imprint the Dark One puts on the souls of his high chosen. RJ describes it thus.

 

 

Quote

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

 

  Its unknown specifically how a Gholam is constrained by the Chosen and the Dark One himself. Gholam were a created creature, they were not breed according to Robert Jordan (TOR question of the week answer), by Aginor later known as Osan'gar. A Mark alone would not stop a Gholam from killing a person, there's something else unknown constraining a Gholam.  This can be deduced in part, because a Mark did not stop a Gholam from trying to kill Graendal during the War of Power (LoC book).

 

 

Besides there are no scenes in the series expressly showing that a Gholam has any Mark at all, that idea is only a decent hypothesis.  If the Gholam does have a Mark, who gave it? Aginor? The Dark One himself? Or someone else? 

 

The Gholam do not have a Mark--the mark is in the Chosen, placed by the Dark One. Gholam are simply compelled to obey those that have the Mark--much as any Shadowspawn--though Graendal implies that some of Aginor's failures who remain still in the Blight are not so bound. The Gholam is currently, though it has thoughts of fighting it's bindings.

 

 

 

 

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Graendal's nasty encounter with the gholam could very well have been a chastisement by said gholam. One thing we have seen is that the Chosen really like to stick it to one another at every allowed opportunity. It is a bit like that horrid show Survivor with the shifting alliances, hoping to be the last one standing. Being one of the Chosen is not like being on a powerful team, but more like a wolfpack with 1 alpha, a beta, an omega and the rest of the hierarchy vying for the top spot. Who then is beta? Demmy or Cyndane, or Graendal? Mesaana is definitely omega. I've never seen an unbound Chosen so cowed by everybody else. I think if even Moggy gave Mesaana an order, she would grovel.

I know I got a little of topic. Sorry for the tangent...

 

I do not think the Gholam was ever sent after Graendal for a killing, since she is still alive, but that doesn't mean her perception of the attack or incident wasn't that it was an attack in earnest.

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Quote from: Luckers on March 09, 2010, 04:27:33 AM

A few points to clarify things for people.

 

1. The Domination Band is cuendillar. The bracelets survived the balefire that killed Semirhage and Elza.

 

 

Rand was channeling TP at them.  They weren't hit directly by the TP balefire, though.  Brandon explains that the reason the  bracelets survived was because they weren't implicitly a part of the individual persons, and wouldn't be destroyed utterly like their clothes when hit by balefire.

 

They were, in fact--much like any clothing or jewellry upon a person when they are balefired. What Brandon speaks of is why they weren't moved by the time altering affects of balefire--they simply dropped to the floor, as opposed to appearing where they should have been lacking Elza and Semirhage moving them in the moments in time that Elza and Semirhage were removed from the pattern. They weren't altered in time because they weren't implicitly a part of the individual person, and thus dropped from the position in which they were in when Rand balefired their wearers.

 

I think you are conflating two quotes from Brandon, Luckers. I could be wrong, and I'm sure someone will provide the quotes to be sure, but as I remember it, there were two big questions coming out of that scene:

 

1) Why didn't Min's bruises disappear when Rand balefired Semi?

2) Why did the bracelets remain after he balefired the women?

 

He answered the first that the bruises weren't the direct cause of any of Semi's actions. Rand did it, so they stayed.

 

He answered the second (I thought), by saying that they weren't implicitly part of the women. He went back and forth with his assistant over this one before deciding that they should drop.

 

Nothing in that quote leads me to believe that they were cuendillar (or that that played into his deliberations).

 

I suppose that you could argue that, like jewelry on a person who is balefired, the bracelets should have been vaporized, too... (that doesn't seem to be quite what you are arguing with all that talk of Brandon answering where they should have fallen)... however, were that the case...

 

If:

The TP can destroy cuendillar (given, based on quote from Sanderson), AND

Jewelry on a balefired person is also erased from the pattern, THEN

 

Conclusion 1: If the bracelets were hit with balefire, they should have been erased, regardless of if they were cuendillar or not

Conclusion 2: If the bracelets were NOT hit with balefire, they should have been erased, regardless of if they were cuendillar or not

 

I suppose there is a very sliver isthmus of argument that says that the TP has to directly target/touch cuendillar to destroy it... that tangential (jewelry, for instance) threads aren't automatically destroyed, but that is rather weak evidence to conclude that the bracelets were cuendillar.

 

Personally, until someone can show me that I am mis-remembering the quotes from Brandon, I am of the mind that the Dom. Band was not cuendillar, and that considerations of how previous uses of balefire affected jewelry didn't enter into Brandon's deliberations of how to handle the bracelets.

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Im not 100% sure about what I'm talking about here, but wasn't the Domination Band shattered. Prehaps the TP can break cuendillar, but not completely erase it from the patteren, even iff it is balefire. After all, the seals on the DO's prison were not completely erased, they were merely broken. I might be wrong though, so any thoughts?

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The DB was certainly shattered, into shards of molten metal, by 'enormous spears of Fire and Air' - not balefire. Rand then 'wove a single weave' and bf's first Semi, then Elza, who are erased from the Pattern.

 

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